--- Log opened Mon Nov 20 00:00:20 2017
00:11 -!- poppingtonic [~brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap
00:32 -!- TMA [tma@twin.jikos.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap
00:35 -!- poppingtonic [~brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
00:45 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/aeiousomething] has joined ##hplusroadmap
00:53 -!- poppingtonic [~brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap
00:57 -!- poppingtonic [~brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:15 -!- poppingtonic [~brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap
01:24 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:842d:4000::2] has joined ##hplusroadmap
01:25 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:842d:4000::2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:27 -!- Gurkenglas [~Gurkengla@dslb-094-223-141-229.094.223.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap
01:53 -!- poppingtonic [~brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
02:05 -!- poppingtonic [~brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:34 -!- poppingtonic [~brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
02:54 -!- poppingtonic [~brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:31 -!- rpifan [~rpifan@207-244-191-189-dhcp.mia.fl.atlanticbb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
03:44 -!- jtimon [~quassel@164.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:09 -!- poppingtonic [~brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:11 -!- poppingtonic [~brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:11 -!- Gurkenglas [~Gurkengla@dslb-094-223-141-229.094.223.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
04:12 -!- vikraman [~vh4x0r@gentoo/developer/vikraman] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
04:12 -!- emeraldgreen [~user@188.227.115.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
04:12 -!- vikraman [~vh4x0r@gentoo/developer/vikraman] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:09 -!- mindsForge [~nak@75-171-23-2.phnx.qwest.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:21 -!- emeraldgreen [~user@188.227.115.178] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:24 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.7.1]
05:24 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:27 -!- MrHindsight [~2020@c-73-51-169-166.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:27 -!- MrHindsight [~2020@c-73-51-169-166.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host]
05:27 -!- MrHindsight [~2020@unaffiliated/capthindsight] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:31 -!- CaptHindsight [~2020@unaffiliated/capthindsight] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
05:35 -!- poppingtonic [~brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
05:36 -!- poppingtonic [~brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:40 < kanzure> where did "10/month" come from? not enough eggs?
05:58 < JayDugger> Empirically determined ad copy? "We never got any more than 10 eggs per cycle?"
05:59 < JayDugger> Lots of questions here, but I don't really care enough about animal husbandry to even look to see whether they mean beef or dairy cattle.
06:00 < JayDugger> OTOH, if I turn off ad block, perhaps I'll see herd management software, remote estrus cycle monitor hardware, etc. on the web pages I visit.
06:00 < JayDugger> Not that curious, though.
06:21 < abetusk> .title http://www.instructables.com/id/Fluidic-heart-micropump/
06:21 < yoleaux> Pulsing Fluidic Heart Micropump: 6 Steps (with Pictures)
06:22 -!- bluebear_ [~dluhos@80.95.97.194] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:09 < heath> http://map.norsecorp.com/
07:12 -!- poppingtonic [~brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:16 -!- poppingtonic [~brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:17 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@190.99.101.24] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:17 < kanzure> https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/docs/INSTALL.md
07:17 < kanzure> https://github.com/LN-Zap/zap-desktop
07:17 < kanzure> https://stevenroose.github.io/lightninggraph/
07:34 -!- poppingtonic [~brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:35 -!- poppingtonic [~brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:11 -!- emeraldgreen [~user@188.227.115.178] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
08:20 < kanzure> "Dominique Brossard, chair of the Department of Life Sciences Communication at UW-Madison, explains that super-soldiers are a concern to many critics of gene editing. There is the possibility that national security could be put in jeopardy if militaries choose to genetically engineer super-humans. This may sound like science fiction or something out of a superhero comic book, but with the ...
08:20 < kanzure> ...advent of gene editing, bioterrorism is a realistic threat."
08:20 < kanzure> super soldiers == bioterrorism? sigh
08:26 -!- poppingtonic [~brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
08:26 < JayDugger> "bioterrorism" scores funding points and looks good on a CV; "super soldiers" does not.
08:29 < kanzure> LEADER OF THE SUPER SOLDIER ARMY
08:29 < kanzure> BETTER THAN HITLER SINCE 1987
08:31 -!- Gurkenglas [~Gurkengla@dslb-094-223-141-229.094.223.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:33 -!- DataPacRat [~dan@vdsl-44.itcanada.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:15 -!- Gurkenglas [~Gurkengla@dslb-094-223-141-229.094.223.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
09:17 < kanzure> 4chan discovers crispr-cas9 http://boards.4chan.org/sci/thread/9306365/is-crispr-really-that-revolutionary-and-if-so-how
09:26 -!- DataPacRat [~dan@vdsl-44.itcanada.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
09:27 -!- DataPacRat [~dan@184.75.221.130] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:27 -!- DataPacRat [~dan@184.75.221.130] has left ##hplusroadmap []
09:30 -!- DataPacRat [~dan@184.75.221.130] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:30 -!- d4de [~d4de@41.35.242.251] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
09:36 < DataPacRat> Evidence for a brain-game style nootropic?  https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/7e8280/aging_research_specialists_have_identified_for/
09:38 -!- NikopolSohru [~NSohru@a7.dftronics.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:50 -!- darsie [~username@84-114-73-160.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
09:51 -!- jtimon [~quassel@164.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
10:00 -!- jtimon [~quassel@164.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:14 -!- NikopolSohru [~NSohru@a7.dftronics.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
10:41 < nmz787> JayDugger: they said they're mainly a dairy, but also sell the supercows at auction
10:43 < nmz787> kanzure: maybe they're concerned with edited soldiers being weaker because we've made them all cookie-cutter-same and thus all have the same bio-security vulnerabilities
10:50 < kanzure> "Nearly 5,400 participants from 310 teams representing 44 countries across the globe participated in iGEM"
11:02 < kanzure> ".. Using the Future Elderly Model, a microsimulation of future health and spending of older Americans, we compared optimistic disease specific scenarios with a delayed aging scenario to see their effects on longevity, disability, and Federal spending. We find that delayed aging is a particularly good investment, as it could increase life expectancy by an additional 2.2 years, most of which ...
11:02 < kanzure> ...would be spent in good health. The value to society is $7 trillion over fifty years. Disease-specific investments have more modest returns, mainly due to competing risks. The fiscal challenges of delayed aging are manageable through modest policy changes. Overall, more research to delay aging appears to be a highly efficient way to forestall disease, extend healthy life, and improve public ...
11:02 < kanzure> ...health, albeit with the potential to exacerbate existing health disparities."
11:02 < kanzure> frm http://scienceandsociety.columbia.edu/cssevent/dana-goldman-economic-returns-delayed-aging-promises-pitfalls
11:02 < kanzure> *from
11:08 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@2001:8003:1074:bc00:8cc2:497:29ad:22eb] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:09 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@2001:8003:1074:bc00:8cc2:497:29ad:22eb] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:33 -!- rpifan [~rpifan@207-244-191-189-dhcp.mia.fl.atlanticbb.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:40 -!- d4de [~d4de@41.35.242.251] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:55 -!- d4de [~d4de@41.35.242.251] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
11:55 < JayDugger> nmz787 Thank you.
11:59 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@jaboja.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:01 < kanzure> haha: "23andme / helix is just genetic astrology" https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/20/16613650/helix-dna-testing-kit-fitness-genes-results-dnafit
12:01 -!- bluebear_ [~dluhos@80.95.97.194] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
12:08 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@jaboja.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
12:08 < spurserh> ouch
12:09 < spurserh> pretty naive of her to think that we have that kind of deep understanding of genetics at this point tho
12:14 < kanzure> we have a good understanding, but just telling someone "sorry kid, you got the shitty version of that gene" is not helpful
12:14 < kanzure> you need to be able to edit
12:28 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@190.99.101.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:44 <@fenn> i would expect there to be a lot of sequence data for Han chinese
12:45 < kanzure> BGI ain't just gonna share that data
12:45 < kanzure> it's "proprietary data"
12:45 < kanzure> a "competitive advantage"
12:45 <@fenn> i'm not sure what's the point of a genetic testing service if they can't give medical advice
12:46 <@fenn> (or your sequence data)
12:47 < kanzure> have you had any actually actionabel information from 23andme?
12:48 <@fenn> not really. it explained that i take longer to metabolize caffeine
12:49 <@fenn> i haven't run my SNPs through any modern analysis tools though
12:49 < kanzure> andrew wants to sequence a few billion people ("for free")
12:50 <@fenn> the solar city model
12:50 < kanzure> and i'm tryign to tell him that, individually, it's only useful if you can do something about someone's shitty dice roll mutations
12:50 < kanzure> or edit in better versions
12:50 <@fenn> the more genotype+phenotype data you get, the more valuable each individual data point becomes
12:51 < kanzure> the best value i've gotten out of 23andme so far has been as a dating tool, a girl wanted to compare our alleles and she geeked out all over it (it was a fun thing to do i guess)
12:51 <@fenn> "we both have brown hair! wow!"
12:51 < kanzure> fenn: ok so your data gets used in an association study and they find out that you definitely have a bad gene. now what? you wait for big pharma to make a drug ten years down the road?
12:52 <@fenn> i would look into the metabolism around that gene and see what's possible with modern drugs
12:52 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@jaboja.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:52 <@fenn> if i had lots of money i could fund research into fixing it with drugs or gene therapy
12:52 < kanzure> yeah i think the answer is gene therapy
12:53 <@fenn> also there may be existing gene therapy for people with worse versions of the disease, and i was "sub clinical" despite having the same mutation (hypothetically)
12:54 -!- MrHindsight [~2020@unaffiliated/capthindsight] has quit [Read error: error:1408F10B:SSL routines:SSL3_GET_RECORD:wrong version number]
12:54 -!- MrHindsight [~2020@c-73-51-169-166.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:54 -!- MrHindsight [~2020@c-73-51-169-166.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host]
12:54 -!- MrHindsight [~2020@unaffiliated/capthindsight] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:55 < kanzure> should probably be targeting old people or something. since they are about to die anyway.
12:55 < kanzure> so gene therapy gets free run in super old dead people
12:55 < kanzure> actually you can also deliver gene therapy after death anyway, since cells don't die for a little bit
12:56 <@fenn> people who really need gene therapy die young
12:56 <@fenn> hunter syndrome for example
12:56 < kanzure> everyone needs gene therapy, there's so much metabolic optimization low hanging fruit
12:57 <@fenn> sure but it's a slippery slope, everybody "needs" cosmetic surgery because their ugly faces offend me
12:58 < kanzure> huh? if they want cosmetic surgery then they go get it... that's how it works.
12:59 <@fenn> unfortunately old people are not very novelty seeking on average
13:00 <@fenn> do you start with rare life threatening mutations or simply the most common ones?
13:00 <@fenn> i guess that's what this argument is about
13:02 <@fenn> honestly i'm surprised there hasn't been more gene therapy development for common mutations; companies are unwilling to invest in it because of the low return from only a few treatments per therapy
13:02 <@fenn> (it = gene therapy in general)
13:12 <@fenn> "Neurofibromatosis, one of the most common genetic disorders in America, affecting one of every 3,000 to 4,000 births. About one-half of neurofibromatosis cases are inherited and the other half result from spontaneous genetic mutation."
13:13 <@fenn> so maybe it's a bunch of different inherited mutations
13:14 <@fenn> yeah
13:16 <@fenn> "The history of gene therapy research for NF1 is unfortunately rather short.  I can find just one such instance, the work by Prof. David Segal of UC Davis to treat plexiform neurofibroma with undamaged NF1 genes delivered by a bacterial vector using transcription activator-like effector nucleases (TALE).  This one-year high-risk/high-reward effort was funded by the Army."
13:18 <@fenn> wow ok so they arent really trying very hard
13:29 < kanzure> well the money to be had is in gene therapy as a service or the platform or something.. perhaps not in individual treatments.
13:30 < kanzure> individual treatments can still be lucrative, but you want to be able to service multiple treatments over a lifetime for different modifications
13:30 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@jaboja.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
13:31 < kanzure> i mention "anti-aging alleles" to people and they give me a blank stare-- they think of genes as something for next generation designer baby stuff, e.g. "not for me"
13:31 < kanzure> but i think there's a lot of low hanging fruit for very simple changes, like trivial copy number variant increases (p51?) that can improve things
13:31 < kanzure> "not for me" -> "it probably wont be relevant to me ever because the timeline is all messed up"
13:36 < kanzure> speaking of which, veritas genomics just blasted out some spam about "get your family genome sequencing for the holidays, it's for your grandkids too".
13:43 -!- aeiousom1thing [~aeiousome@223.237.23.120] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:44 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/aeiousomething] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
13:44 <@fenn> .wik p51
13:44 < yoleaux> "P51 or P-51 may refer to :" — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P51
13:45 <@fenn> i guess you meant p53 tumor suppressor
13:45 < kanzure> p53, sorry yes.
13:46 < kanzure> it's also listed multiple times on http://diyhpl.us/wiki/genetic-modifications/
13:50 -!- MrHindsight is now known as CaptHindsight
14:34 -!- aeiousom1thing [~aeiousome@223.237.23.120] has quit [Quit: leaving]
14:53 -!- rpifan [~rpifan@207-244-191-189-dhcp.mia.fl.atlanticbb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
14:54 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@jaboja.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:58 -!- d4de [~d4de@41.35.242.251] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:17 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@2001:8003:1074:bc00:8cc2:497:29ad:22eb] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:18 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@2001:8003:1074:bc00:8cc2:497:29ad:22eb] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:02 < kanzure> d4de: check http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2017-11-20.log
16:08 -!- mindsForge [~nak@75-171-23-2.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:55 < kanzure> ferrofluid displays https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykUFg-7Ji3I
17:37 -!- DataPacRat [~dan@184.75.221.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
17:51 -!- darsie [~username@84-114-73-160.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:21 -!- DataPacRat [~dan@adsl-107.itcanada.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:22 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@jaboja.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:24 <@fenn> .tw https://mobile.twitter.com/AstroSocietyPac/status/932662901629902850 love the comments on this one
18:24 < yoleaux> Och, A cannae finde nae tweet
18:24 <@fenn> .tw https://mobile.twitter.com/AstroSocietyPac/status/932662901629902850
18:24 < yoleaux> Interstellar #asteroid "`Oumuamua" was inert, reddish, metallic and highly elongated (about 400 meters long), according to an @ESO Very Large Telescope study — what a beautiful discovery: http://www.eso.org/public/news/eso1737/?lang #oumuamua #U1 #news #astronomy #interstellar https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DPF77toUMAAKcuZ.jpg (@AstroSocietyPac)
18:46 -!- yashgaroth [~yashgarot@2606:6000:cd4d:3300:4d73:5a6f:d96:28b5] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:50 < kanzure> https://rockhealth.com/reports/the-genomics-inflection-point-implications-for-healthcare/#background
19:01 < kanzure> yashgaroth: say you were given a billion dollars (just for starters) to sequence a really large number of people. but you have to give them something in return- like their data (but something they actually want and has value). other than ancestry data, what do you give them?
19:01 < yashgaroth> do I get their health data and other pertinent personal info as well
19:01 < kanzure> yep
19:02 < kanzure> (only if you ask nicely, though!)
19:02 < kanzure> say it's 1 million people
19:03 < kanzure> i am trying to avoid "genetic astrology" stuff like "you have a 0.10% increased chance of x!" which is totally unhelpful life advice
19:03 < yashgaroth> well assuming computation is free, with a million genomes you could hopefully generate some useful GWAS data with all that...not sure how useful it'll end up being to people, so sell the data to companies and cut the people a dividend?
19:04 < kanzure> right.. i agree that's one way to do it. dividends/pay back/etc.
19:04 < kanzure> my perspective is that this is sort of useful to those people, unless you can edit/fix yer bad mutations
19:04 < kanzure> (or insert better stuff)
19:05 < kanzure> but we can't really offer that on a large scale either, or at least not yet
19:05 < yashgaroth> mhm
19:05 < kanzure> i think that people would like to curate their own designer baby genomes based on famous people they know about, or friends/families.
19:06 < kanzure> even if you can't construct the damn babies yet, or the synthetic chromosomes, i think building up that kind of portfolio would be appealing to a bunch of people
19:06 < yashgaroth> and are these random people, people who sign up for it, people of exceptional merit, etc
19:07 < yashgaroth> gonna be hard to find a million people of merit tbh
19:07 < kanzure> well people will choose to mate with just about anyone who happens to be in their geographic proximity, so...
19:07 < kanzure> i think that a million people of merit would be interested in selling off their genomic data for $$
19:07 < yashgaroth> and their data would presumably be more valuable, at least for designer babies
19:08 < kanzure> my perspective on designer geomes has for a long time been something like: people will just publish lots of public interesting genomes with common (popular) modifications. but realistically, companies will want to sell private upgrades won't they?
19:08 < yashgaroth> like "we don't know what this allele does, but 75% of millionaires have it, so..."
19:08 < yashgaroth> how do you mean private upgrades
19:08 < kanzure> people already do arranged marriages, so why not arranged genomic data transfer... but the weird thing is that it's not the data that is valuable, it's the association of the mutation with your positive signs of success or social signaling or something.
19:09 < kanzure> well, private upgrades as in, i think companies are going to do large-scale association studies, find some interesting correlations, and then not tell anyone about it (they will just sell their upgrades)
19:10 -!- yashgaroth_ [~yashgarot@2606:6000:cd4d:3300:4d73:5a6f:d96:28b5] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:10 < kanzure> and i think families are somewhat incentivized to do the same..... einstein's family doesn't have direct incentive to publish their SNPs and CNVs, other than "hope the world pays attention" i guess.
19:11 < kanzure> yashgaroth: well not just that 75% of millionaires have it, but more like "wow i like johnny depp, i want his eyes installed in this genome"
19:11 < yashgaroth_> true, we are a long way off from that though; even just jamming 50kb of DNA into an embryo is cutting edge for the next few years
19:12 < kanzure> right so i'm not talking about delivery or implementation, just that assembling this information and collecting it would itself be valuable
19:12 < kanzure> just like people do arranged marriages many years in advance of the actual marriage.
19:12 < kanzure> sometimes more than 20 years ahead
19:12 < yashgaroth_> maybe a company will have an algorithm that's good at detecting associations, but unless they're paying for exclusive access to the data then someone else will probably be able to figure it out too
19:13 -!- yashgaroth [~yashgarot@2606:6000:cd4d:3300:4d73:5a6f:d96:28b5] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
19:13 < gradstudentbot> Friends don't let friends go to super school.
19:13 < kanzure> i'm trying to dig myself out of a hole where the only thing valuable about genomic data is that you can sell it for a few bucks to participate in lots of association studies
19:14 < yashgaroth_> yeah welcome to the hole
19:14 < kanzure> for the celerbity sperm banks, don't you have to pay for the celeb sperm?
19:15 < yashgaroth_> I wouldn't know, I assume it's not some absurd amount; though I imagine paying a celebrity to jerk off into a cup costs more per hour than some schmuck
19:15 < yashgaroth_> other than that it's just liquid nitrogen and admin
19:16 < kanzure> nah you mark it up anyway because celeb status
19:16 < yashgaroth_> this seems like an interesting case study
19:16 < yashgaroth_> instead of paparazzi, you have people running around with a sample cup and a wad of money
19:17 < kanzure> http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/celebrity-alike-sperm-donors-resemble-stars-david-beckham/story?id=8781583
19:18 < yashgaroth_> I feel like if that was really a thing brad pitt would have 50,000 children and there'd be a story about it...lookalikes I could see
19:18 < kanzure> yeah but why would brad want to sell anyway?
19:19 < kanzure> still tho-- you only want certain aspects, you don't really need the whole brad pitt genome.
19:19 < yashgaroth_> that is the other side, the more valuable their sperm is, the less likely they are to actually donate since they're probably richer
19:19 < kanzure> and also it would dilute the brad pitt value hehe
19:19 < yashgaroth_> true, brad babies are so out of fashion this year
19:20 < yashgaroth_> there you go, with a million genomes and a decent face photo, you could probably do a better version of venter's recent scandal paper about matching faces to DNA
19:20 < kanzure> that doesn't help me.
19:21 < yashgaroth_> well it is another way to generate money off the data, though you're mostly selling the data to sperm banks which are not high grossing ventures
19:21 < yashgaroth_> also law enforcement I guess
19:22 < kanzure> skip ahead to our glorious designer baby future (which i think is undeniable at this point), i wonder if it's stil the case that genome sequencing is worthless
19:22 < kanzure> except for association studies
19:22 < yashgaroth_> also if we're skipping ahead, people will assume that genome sequencing costs will decline too, so why pay you a billion for the data when they can buy it in 5 years for 1% the cost
19:23 < yashgaroth_> aside from first mover advantage, which to be fair might make it worthwhile
19:23 < kanzure> well i guess you could make up some story about exclusivity...... but you're talking about asking 100 million people to not sell their genomic data to another company?
19:23 < yashgaroth_> good luck enforcing that
19:25 < kanzure> if you had a tool for assembling genomes and annotating them, i think you would have prepared a dozen different genomes and chromosomes by now
19:25 < kanzure> as sort of tentative plans once you get access to synthesis + testing in the far future
19:26 < gradstudentbot> Can I get some more media?
19:26 < yashgaroth_> I suppose, and it'd be good to work out the bugs on it now, especially considering how fucking bespoke all bioinformatics software is
19:26 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@2001:8003:1074:bc00:8cc2:497:29ad:22eb] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:26 < kanzure> it's just really interesting-- bioethics people complain about a wealth disparity creating inequitable genetic upgrades, but really the data can be freely transferred over the internet for almost $0, so it seems to me like private genetic upgrades aren't going to be the most popular.....
19:27 < kanzure> and if you're constructing a new person's genome, you definitely want to know what you're putting in there, you're not going to trust it to the cloud to take care of everything without you having access to the raw data (and hence the "private" upgrades)
19:27 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@110.141.11.39] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:28 < yashgaroth_> and someone will find a way to secretly sequence a superbaby at the first opportunity anyway
19:28 < gradstudentbot> I could never be a PI.
19:28 < kanzure> so my point about johnny depp was that while we can't "give his eyes", we can definitely let people copy-paste various alleles from his profile if they want those... and that's somewhat valuable to people- getting to pick and choose the features that they want to support.
19:30 < yashgaroth_> sure, though at a certain point people mightn't bother, like rich single mothers would have no problem with a full-on depp baby, but a married couple probably doesn't care as much unless they're in LA
19:31 < kanzure> also, i think that this will be a way for ethnic minorities to distribute their chromosomes to the wider population (pay someone who is going to have a designer baby to include one of your chromosomes, in exchange for funding the costs of pregnancy / designer baby / child upbringing)
19:31 < kanzure> (and you would do this payment to increase your genetic influence on the world)
19:31 < kanzure> (and governments would probably offer discounts for various health-related upgrades that lower their long-term healthcare costs or whatever)
19:31 < yashgaroth_> great everyone's gonna be saudi
19:32 < yashgaroth_> but hey if the choice is having a crappy natural baby, or a super baby that looks a little like mohammed bin whatever...
19:33 < kanzure> ... with extra $ in your pocket to help out the kiddo. yeah....
19:34 < yashgaroth_> generates a different set of complaints than 'only the rich will have superbabies', but hey
19:36 < kanzure> so instead of just "sell your data for association studies" i think it should be like... sell future findings about your genome, to your friends or colleagues that want your positive attributes or traits.   and then once the number crunching is done, those people get access to the data and they can resell it or use it in designer babies in distant future or whatever.
19:38 < yashgaroth_> more of an investment than an immediate payout, and you can rely on people thinking "I'm awesome, so people will obviously want my attributes, I'm a winner for sure"
19:38 < yashgaroth_> get a little of that delusional self interest and it's pretty much guaranteed
19:39 < kanzure> wellll yes it requires some long-term thinking, but also FOMO: someone else probably has my amazing legs so i better get on this fast
19:39 < yashgaroth_> hell forget the long-term thinking stuff, people will sign up just on their inflated egos
19:39 < yashgaroth_> fomo too, yes
19:40 < kanzure> should call it iamgoodstock.com
19:40 < kanzure> wait no... wrong message.
19:41 < kanzure> so again though, that sort of assumes a 'private' model where people try to keep genomic data more secretive
19:42 < kanzure> but.. as soon as someone finds a good mutation, it will be advertised in the literature (like they already are)... so i guess this only works out positively for outliers?
19:42 < gradstudentbot> Wow, that would be a great sample to add to my collection.
19:42 < yashgaroth_> I feel like patents on that sort of thing would be difficult, but idk
19:43 < kanzure> right i think companies would just keep it a trade secret instead of filing for patents
19:43 < yashgaroth_> like the whole "gene patents!!" kerfuffle was Myriad literally patenting a variant, so it might still work
19:43 < yashgaroth_> but trade secrets when a nurse can pluck a hair five minutes after birth...eh
19:44 < kanzure> yes they can pluck a hair but you need to do the association studies to figure it out
19:44 < kanzure> if the condition of a company doing an association study on 1 million people's genome is that they share the results with each of those people, then the trade secret model becomes impossible, heh
19:44 < yashgaroth_> true
19:44 < kanzure> and they can go for patents but if anyone wants an upgrade they would just go to mexico
19:45 < yashgaroth_> they might do it anyway, since most of the cost will end up being the IVF clinic
19:46 < kanzure> so i don't think 1 million people are going to keep association study results a secret from the rest of the world.
19:47 < kanzure> especially if they can sell the data pre-emptively
19:48 < yashgaroth_> I don't think people will mind not getting the data, as long as they get paid
19:48 < kanzure> this is a really lopsided problem because, individually, the 1 million people don't get anything out of this, and the pharma company gets potentially a lot of value out of this, and so it makes sense to just keep it all a trade secret as long as possible.
19:48 < kanzure> yashgaroth_: well think about the implications of not getting the data.. so now you can't sell your best attributes?
19:49 < yashgaroth_> you still get paid if people use your attributes, you just don't know what genome region it is
19:49 < kanzure> who knows the details tho?
19:50 < yashgaroth_> whoever this genome broker is that finds the million people and negotiates with companies, I guess
19:50 < yashgaroth_> actually no because the companies will be doing the actual data mining
19:50 < gradstudentbot> This seems to be based on surface normals.
19:51 < kanzure> hm?
19:51 < kanzure> ok so walk me through that. the broker has the information + knowledge. you're selling your scalp hair properties. bob wants to buy that for his synthetic chromosome or his designer baby he's putting together. he gives you the money, the broker has to.. also manage bob's genome?
19:52 < yashgaroth_> ah then we're assuming people know their specific traits, versus just getting a check in the mail
19:52 < kanzure> well, bob knew about you and wanted a certain trait you had
19:53 < kanzure> and he negotiated with you
19:53 < yashgaroth_> I don't know how well the whole friends+colleagues thing will work when there's a billion people out there who could be better than anyone you know
19:53 < kanzure> well you go spelunking
19:54 < kanzure> you'd be surprised, you'd generally prefer your friends over people you have never met at all
19:55 < yashgaroth_> probably a little, but we're talking super babies, not somewhat better babies
19:55 < kanzure> this future you've imagined (where the data is kept secret) is pretty weird in its structure- so the broker has to manage the knowledge/information and construct the designer baby genomes. and it spits out the DNA and bob can go get that made anywhere, or analyzed anywhere, but the special sauce knowledge is basically not accessible to bob, unless he tries to do it multiple times to compare ...
19:55 < kanzure> ...results with/without certain traits... yeah i mean you can easily extract the difference. tick a box to enable/disable "red hair" and suddenly you see the red hair traits blipping out of the data. easy peasy?
19:56 < yashgaroth_> oh I don't think it can be kept secret no matter how you try
19:57 < kanzure> the "companies own the association study results" trade secret stuff is basically about keeping secrets :-)
19:57 < yashgaroth_> well yes, they won't fund the studies unless there's a reasonable guarantee of return, so it's a problem either way
19:57 < kanzure> "wealthy saudis paying for certain chromosomes" could survive, though.
19:58 < yashgaroth_> mhm, 5% saudi baby in exchange for 200k sounds reasonable
19:58 < kanzure> actually i have no idea if that's reasonable
19:58 < yashgaroth_> yeah me either
19:58 < yashgaroth_> let the market decide I suppose
19:59 < kanzure> it also depends on who the parents are, what their jobs are, social status, where they are located, etc.
20:00 < yashgaroth_> the saudis don't want some scrub parents for their 5% kid if they can avoid it, so it goes both ways
20:00 < kanzure> so what's interesting is that this idea also doesn't /require/ genome sequencing
20:01 < kanzure> you could physically separate chromsoomes i think
20:01 < kanzure> oh, it does if you only want certain fragments
20:01 < kanzure> well, you could do PCR stuff and insertion magic. hmm.
20:02 < yashgaroth_> yeah, probably relatively easy with semi-natural recombination stuff
20:02 < yashgaroth_> well I have to go watch a roller hockey game for some reason so I'll be back later
20:02 < kanzure> seeya
20:51 -!- rpifan [~rpifan@207-244-191-189-dhcp.mia.fl.atlanticbb.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:31 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
22:00 -!- poppingtonic [~brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap
22:11 -!- yashgaroth_ [~yashgarot@2606:6000:cd4d:3300:4d73:5a6f:d96:28b5] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
22:25 -!- balrog [~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:28 -!- balrog [~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog] has joined ##hplusroadmap
22:34 -!- maaku [~maaku@173.234.25.100] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in]
22:37 -!- poppingtonic [~brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
22:38 -!- poppingtonic [~brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap
22:39 -!- maaku [~maaku@173.234.25.100] has joined ##hplusroadmap
22:52 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap
22:56 -!- poppingtonic [~brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
23:03 -!- MrHindsight [~2020@185.174.139.20] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:03 -!- MrHindsight [~2020@185.174.139.20] has quit [Changing host]
23:03 -!- MrHindsight [~2020@unaffiliated/capthindsight] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:07 -!- CaptHindsight [~2020@unaffiliated/capthindsight] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
23:08 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:842d:4000::2] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:11 -!- poppingtonic [~brian@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:55 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:842d:4000::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
23:59 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:842d:4000::2] has joined ##hplusroadmap
--- Log closed Tue Nov 21 00:00:21 2017