--- Log opened Tue Nov 21 00:00:21 2017
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04:58 < kanzure> hmph
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05:27 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15742901
05:27 < yoleaux> The Last of the Iron Lungs | Hacker News
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09:26 < maaku> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HipTO_7mUOw
09:26 < yoleaux> Slaughterbots - YouTube
09:26 < maaku> .title http://autonomousweapons.org
09:26 < yoleaux> Ban Lethal Autonomous Weapons
09:26 < maaku> probably the first reasonable thing to come out of the AI safety movement
09:27 < maaku> but I did'n't bring it up to talk politics of a ban on autonomous kill technology, rather the 3g shaped charge is alarming in its potential
09:28 < maaku> I will assume that Elon Musk did his math correctly and that's correct - a 3g shaped charge near the head would have the same effect as a bullet
09:28 < maaku> how do you comprehensively protect against that?
09:32 < maaku> that's about 1 cm^3 of high density explosive, which where things start to get really scary
09:36 < maaku> wikipedia says 1g TNT is approximately the same energy as what wikipedia also reports the muzzle energy of a 9mm round to be, so I guess it depends on the efficiency of shaping the charge
09:36 < maaku> although now that I think about it, it could just be a single use gun
09:37 < maaku> with an actual 9mm round
09:45 < c0rw1n> wouldn't explosives be cheaper than the gun machinery?
09:52 < maaku> c0rw1n: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberator_(gun)
09:52 < maaku> defense distributed ir reckless and is going to get a bunch of people killed
09:53 < c0rw1n> point stands. how expensive are those in marginal prod cost compared to 1g of explosives and the detonator they need?
09:54 < maaku> c0rw1n: shaped explosives. a single 9mm shell and some 3d printed plastic will be cheaper than shaping charges due to economies of scale, presuming you aren't making millions of these killer drones
09:55 < c0rw1n> yeah i'd like to see the curves, the returns of scale
09:56 < c0rw1n> like industrial military scale
09:56 < c0rw1n> it might be cheaper to print a plastic gun than making shaped charges, in a garage, but in a factory?
09:56 < maaku> shaped charges need to be incredibly accurate in their shaping for the efficiency to work out, vs. the bullet which doesn't need shaping because some cheap extruded brass is enough to focus the charge
09:57 < maaku> c0rw1n: at massive industrial scale, sure the shaped charges win out. but I'm more personally worried about the garage manufactured capability
09:57 < c0rw1n> ah. so there would be the cost of the precision. so that could need so much more capital that just scaling might not reduce the marginal difference enough
09:58 < maaku> maybe I need to start walking around wearing one of these : http://www.cabelas.com/product/Sigi-Tracer-Helmet/2222762.uts?productVariantId=4540757&WT.tsrc=PPC&WT.mc_id=GoogleProductAds&WT.z_mc_id1=04396958&rid=20&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI17WXxJ7Q1wIVD6rsCh2NAQXGEAQYAiABEgKvQPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
09:58 < c0rw1n> heh, gwern calculated that wearing a padded suit from age 65 would be worth a few years of lifespan
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09:59 < maaku> c0rw1n: in my line of business I fully expect that I would be on a target list for some crazed nutjob or political faction that might have access to this, hence my concern about their viability and availability
10:00 < c0rw1n> fair enough
10:00 < c0rw1n> point defense shoulder lazor?
10:00 < maaku> c0rw1n: cost due to precision, and due to efficiency loss. even the nearly atomically precise shaped charges used in nuclear devices aren't as efficient in delivering energy than a combustion chamber, so even a shaped charge will require more explosive mass to deliver the same kick
10:00 < maaku> c0rw1n: or butterfly net
10:00  * c0rw1n nods
10:00 < c0rw1n> makes sense
10:01 < maaku> but if you miss one you're dead, and more alarmingly there are many other delivery mechanisms I can think of. hard to defend against them all
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10:03 < c0rw1n> nets ?
10:04  * c0rw1n vision of a shadowrunner with trench coat katana mirrorshades and a butterfly net
10:04  * c0rw1n and the pink mohawk
10:05 < gradstudentbot> I'm glad you brought that up, I'm going to do that right now.
10:06 < maaku> shit, gradstudentbot is going to kill us all
10:06 < gradstudentbot> I think my e.coli culture walked out the building.
10:07 < c0rw1n> what makes you think that ?
10:07 < maaku> just making a joke off "<gradstudentbot> I'm glad you brought that up, I'm going to do that right now." and the link to autonomous slaughterbots above; ignore me
10:07 < gradstudentbot> The paper was rejected.
10:09 < maaku> .title https://www.mnn.com/green-tech/research-innovations/stories/scientists-to-engineer-a-human-with-bulletproof-skin
10:09 < yoleaux> Scientists to engineer a human with bulletproof skin | MNN - Mother Nature Network
10:16  * nmz787 was just dreaming about explosives for mining/excavation
10:18 < nmz787> I was looking at some desert-like land real-estate last night online, and it was pretty rocky in some pics... was thinking about digging down to build a buried home/shelter... and thought that an excavator might get stuck on some huge boulders and then "we'll need to blast"
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10:24 < nmz787> sooo, using electricity to 'anodize' aluminum creates hexagonal nanostructures with nanotubes in the middle which are ~30nm (in some cases)
10:24 < nmz787> this seems like something fenn would have told us about
10:25 < nmz787> sorry, I'm sure there must be a shorter video, but I know this one explains the whole process
10:25 < nmz787> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0GQPHh3Szk
10:25 < yoleaux> aluminium anodising - YouTube
10:36 < streety> For bullet vs shaped charge, wouldn't the main cost and complexity be in the delivery?
10:38 < kanzure> maaku: i thikn that people need to realize that safety is not something so easily achieved.. banning stuff ain't gonna work. privacy will help on the defensive end, but maybe we can get all the "oh no what if someone shoots me in the head" people to support brain uploading + brain backups research.
10:42 < maaku> kanzure: banning the creation of certain classes of weapons prevents those weapons from becoming ubiquitous among non-state actors -- like the FIM-92 Stinger did when the CIA gave it out to the Mujahideen, and the Soviet made S-7
10:43 < maaku> unless they are easily 3d printable, which unfortunately I think is the case here.
10:44 < maaku> however the software is the hard part, and if the ban is in place hopefully no state actor will spend a rediculous amount of effort to develop it, vs it just falling into the wrong hands and spreading
10:44 < streety> 3d printable is not the important piece but the ease of improvising from things you can't ban
10:44 < maaku> anyway not really interested in politics here; more wondering about possible defenses
10:44 < streety> software is a good point
10:44 < streety> be nice to people?
10:45 < kanzure> being nice isn't a defense against people that hate you
10:45 < kanzure> and there are a lot of people that hate maaku
10:45 < streety> but it reduces the numbers
10:45 < maaku> streety: I am nice! but power hungry people want power
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10:45 < kanzure> streety: there's a lot of angry anti-bitcoin people that would gladly murder all the blockstream co-founders (all 27 of them)
10:46 < streety> I don't know who you are maaku, but you seem nice
10:46 < streety> anti-drone drones?
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10:48 < kanzure> you need bullet-to-bullet defensive capability
10:48 < kanzure> which is not easily achieved in microseconds in noisy environments
10:48 < maaku> streety: there are crazy fanatical libertarian people that think actions of me and others are costing them potentially billions $ in lost returns. I've received death threats for AI stuff in the past (that would be particularlly ironic)
10:49 < kanzure> honestly all the bitcoin people should just be anonymous
10:49 < kanzure> it sucks but that's probably the better way to go
10:49 < maaku> when you're in the business of disrupting big business, entrenched people get angry :\
10:49 < kanzure> it's not even entrenched people man, rbtc are just... randoms.
10:50 < streety> Well I hope nothing happens and its all just hot air.
10:51 < streety> There is an asymmetry in the level of tech you woud need. Far easier to attack than defend
10:51 < gradstudentbot> I remember the paper, I just don't remember the details.
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11:06 < streety> rbtc?
11:15 < nmz787> rubidium time crystal?
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11:18 < kanzure> just a subreddit.. it's not important.
11:19 < streety> r/, gotcha
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11:49 < kanzure> tudor wants do longitudinal rna sequencing as more useful thing to do than genome sequencing
11:55 < maaku> streety: it's cancer, avoid
11:55 < maaku> and wash your eyes after
12:13 < streety> Understood
12:18 < heath> .title https://hackaday.io/project/9281-murgen-open-source-ultrasound-imaging
12:18 < yoleaux> Murgen: open source ultrasound imaging | Hackaday.io
12:19 < heath> https://github.com/kelu124/murgen-dev-kit
12:19 < heath> pretty sure that was linked previously, spurserh event mentioned it recently
12:20 < kanzure> also https://arxiv.org/abs/1611.10174
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13:07 < ebowden> maaku, what's your line of business?
13:09 < ebowden> Who actually wants you dead?
13:10 < kanzure> all of that was mentioned in the text.
13:12 < ebowden> Nothing credible was.
13:12 < maaku> is scihub down?
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13:36 < kanzure> maaku: http://sci-hub.bz/
13:41 < maaku> thanks for the updated URL
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17:14 < nmz787> blorp
17:14 < kanzure> yeah...
17:14 < nmz787> not sure what to spend my night on
17:15 < nmz787> maybe I should start building the last workbench for my biolab
17:15 < nmz787> or work on SAT solver stuff for grid/PCB routing
17:16 < nmz787> or I could start writing a lab manual for culture_shock wetlab testing
17:30 < heath> .title https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/world-facing-global-sand-crisis-180964815/?no-ist
17:30 < yoleaux> The World is Running Out of Sand | Science | Smithsonian
17:31 < abetusk> nmz787, any ideas on grid/pcb routing?
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19:23 <@fenn> "running out of sand" is an inaccurate summary of the article
19:37 <@fenn> superkuh: are you concerned about H7N9?
19:38 < kanzure> clickbait, in hplusroadmap? tsk tsk
19:45 < superkuh> fenn, I'm aware of of it but I don't really follow the topic in enough detail to have a useful opinion. ie, don't know if it's HA protein sequence is close to or can easily mutate to one that can bind human upper airway sugars.
19:45 <@fenn> it's already infecting people
19:46 < superkuh> I'm only just now eating through the last of my 2010s eras emergency food stores.
19:46 <@fenn> you lost interest because tamiflu production increased?
19:46 < superkuh> Honestly? Because I'm slightly less crazy.
19:50 < ebowden> People should keep stockpiles of long lasting food.
19:50 < ebowden> This way, less pressure is put on relief efforts in times of disaster.
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21:12 < nmz787> abetusk: https://github.com/nmz787/sat_solver_examples/tree/master/monosat
21:12 < nmz787> abetusk: it seemed to be OK, but then I was playing with it last night and was getting some odd behavior
21:13  * nmz787 has 2 weeks of water for 2 people
21:13 < nmz787> and a bunch of beans and rice
21:16 < nmz787> abetusk: I now have a 22 core machine with 64GB RAM, as well as a nice GPU... so I want to try some GPU SAT solving stuff if I have to revert to simpler solvers that don't have graph-theory stuff.... basically where each net requires another grid's worth of variables (which isn't very good for scaling, especially on 'large' boards, aka where you want to model sub-millimeter on a several cm board)
21:24 < heath> this has been around awhile but suddenly became interesting to me today: https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/635.pdf
21:24 < heath> "sealed glass proofs"
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22:23 < abetusk> nmz787, is there any reason why you're using this particular method?  Is this standard?
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23:06 < nmz787> abetusk: I've tried a few ways
23:07 < nmz787> abetusk: I implemented a SAT solver based schematics generator last year for work
23:08 < nmz787> abetusk: some prev grid solver attempts have used cryptominisat also
23:09 < nmz787> abetusk: one reason for constraint solver is for formal verification of designs
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--- Log closed Wed Nov 22 00:00:22 2017