--- Log opened Mon Dec 18 00:00:46 2017
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04:03 <@kanzure> hmph
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04:25 < adlai> kanzure: "better than hustler" by what metric? cf pat condell: "[savior] gonna come back and show the nazis how to do it right"
04:26 < adlai> afaict hitler was a shitty artist and a good politician, and the rest was history just hissing along
04:26 <@kanzure> yeah it's important to realize that the science stuff wasn't really a core component of their belief system
04:26 <@kanzure> and hitler wasn't even a mad scientist
04:26 < adlai> good thing our boys in los alamos were able to set him up the bomb, or how did that war go again
04:26 <@kanzure> so it's all very disappointing that nobody took it seriously
04:27 < adlai> eh i think the problem is that people take things seriously in all manner of directions, and nobody takes seriously the "1000 chickens" problem - they are all pecking seriously, but their attention vectors sum to zero for N>>1
04:29  * adlai continues incubating his "hitler was mkultra victim and 1st time traveller once they realized how badly they fucked up" conspiracy theory
04:29 <@kanzure> uh..
04:30 -!- adlai is now known as conspiracystuden
04:30 -!- conspiracystuden is now known as cnsprcystudentbo
04:30 -!- cnsprcystudentbo is now known as adlai
04:30 < adlai> not enough letters. must read more.
04:32 <@kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/AndersSChristen/status/941657670502768640
04:32 < yoleaux> A lot of @Sci_Hub domains (.bz .cc etc) have recently been blocked, here's a list of currently working links to sci-hub: sci-hub.la sci-hub.hk http://sci-hub.tv sci-hub.tw http://sci-hub.name sci-hub.mn Spread the word! (@AndersSChristen)
04:33 <@kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/ycombinator/status/941371056316547077
04:33 < yoleaux> Congrats to the @Ginkgoo team! Ginkgo Bioworks (YC S14) secures $275 million in Series D, valuing the company at over $1 billion http://tcrn.ch/2AYjtte (@ycombinator)
04:33 <@kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/antonioregalado/status/941333184280752129
04:33 < yoleaux> Andreessen Horowitz has a new, $450 million bio fund (Thread) https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/14/andreessen-horowitz-has-a-new-450-million-bio-fund/ (@antonioregalado)
04:33 <@kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/marcjlajoie/status/941030796244148224
04:33 < yoleaux> Computationally designed proteins form a capsid around their own RNA genome and evolve in complex biochemical environments (including live mice). It's a synthetic nucleocapsid, not a virus. #notavirus http://www.nature.com/articles/nature25157 (@marcjlajoie)
04:34 <@kanzure> "Evolution of a designed protein assembly encapsulating its own RNA genome" https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25157
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04:41  * adlai writes his congressmen in support of the #metoo #notavirus #hegeliansynthesis
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05:50 < fltrz> "or how did that war go again" lol, the holocaust actually was started by the regime of the russian czar (before the soviets): the 'large' nation of Russia lost war against the 'small' Japan (see Potemkin etc). The czarist regime needed a scapegoat.
05:51 < fltrz> so they made up a jewisch conspiracy, and created the false flag "elder scrolls of zion", this rumour spread worldwide, and hence it was already one of the more suspected minorities when Hitler came in power
05:53 <@kanzure> yawn
05:53 <@kanzure> get back to work
05:53 < fltrz> it is boring indeed
05:55 < gradstudentbot> Cancer: still not cured.
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07:58 <@kanzure> nmz787: does intel still have the best foundry? or is TMSC stepping ahead or what.
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08:34 <@kanzure> there was some marketing speak about better node resolution than intel foundry but it turned out to be all bluff (e.g. the number was technically better, but didn't result in higher transistor density?)
08:46 <@fenn> "totally not a virus, we swear" (muffled maniacal laughter)
08:47 < archels_> "[...] after we'd already exhausted the usual tricks, e.g., stuffing data into the lower two bits of pointers (which only works because all addresses on the R3000 were 4-byte aligned)."
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10:30 <@fenn> this might have gotten lost in the shuffle but i think it deserves another mention: http://mariakonovalenko.wordpress.com/tag/human-physical-immortality-roadmap/
10:32 < bluebear_> I have long thought about why so many immortality researches are from Russia
10:32 < bluebear_> s/researches/researchers/
10:32 <@fenn> any conclusions?
10:33 < bluebear_> no; so far, no solid hypothesis
10:33 <@fenn> loren graham's "lonely ideas" might provide some insight
10:34 < bluebear_> lonely ideas?
10:35 <@fenn> it's a book about russian social values and how they influence the economy (or lack thereof)
10:35 < bluebear_> lack of economy? :-)
10:36 <@fenn> yeah pretty much
10:36 <@fenn> what are russian exports? gas, hackers, nuclear reactors...
10:37 <@fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Russia_Export_Treemap.png
10:37 < bluebear_> "Where do you come from? - From nowhere. - Everyone is from somewhere. - I am from Jakku. - OK, that's pretty much nowhere."
10:41 <@fenn> how's this for a theroy: "soviets outlawed religion, as a result we had several generations of atheists by default. people's instincts for religion instead got transferred to scientific endeavors such as biological immortality"
10:41 <@fenn> theory*
10:43 <@fenn> lol 16% "unspecified" exports from russia
10:48 <@fenn> http://atlas.media.mit.edu/ treemaps of exports
10:48 < bluebear_> yes, sounds relatively plausible but I'm not sure; there are multiple predominantly atheistic countries (Czech republic and China as examples from the top of my head) and I didn't observe this
10:48 < bluebear_> of course, with China, it may be masked by the fact that many of their research is published only in Chinese :-)
10:49 <@fenn> china has been obsessed with physical immortality since antiquity, but it's considered a religion because it's so old
10:49 <@fenn> this is one of the main goals in taoism
10:51 <@fenn> i only know transhumanists from czechia so i'm biased
10:54 < bluebear_> well, of course you have transhumanists in Czechia, as you have from most countries, but I believe it's not above normal average
10:55 <@fenn> finland also seems to be punching above its weight
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10:59 <@fenn> sweden and UK are the next least religious countries, and they also seem to be highly represented in transhumanist culture
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11:57 < nmz787> kanzure: I think they still have the best... the measurements of the transistor sizes isn't consistent, so you can't really compare apples-to-apples when looking at i.e. 22nm vs 14nm (across companies at least)
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11:58 <@fenn> worth another read: https://lifeboat.com/blog/2013/04/bitcoins-dystopian-future
11:59 < nmz787> well isn't China already breeding based on genome-wide association studies of intelligence?
11:59 < nmz787> seems pretty transhuman to me
11:59 <@fenn> like arranged marriages?
11:59 <@fenn> what do you mean breeding
11:59 < gradstudentbot> Did you see that hack?
12:02 < nmz787> idk, some old dude mentioned to me last week
12:03 < nmz787> but yeah probably breeding
12:03 <@fenn> -_-
12:03 < nmz787> I mean arranged marriage/breeding
12:03 < nmz787> arranged IVF?
12:04 <@fenn> the wife carries a baby with dna from another woman?
12:04 <@fenn> otherwise i don't see the point. we already have sperm banks for this kind of thing right?
12:05 <@fenn> if you care about the phenotype of your mate you can do an IQ test, which is more accurate than a GWAS
12:05 <@kanzure> we need to pick a good intro ivf project
12:05 <@fenn> honestly i would be surprised if people are arranging marriages based on IQ test scores
12:13 <@kanzure> i was talking with yashgaroth about this and i think people are going to start recommending chromosomes... e.g. put 1 of my chromosomes in your baby and maybe i give you $20k of baby money for child care.
12:13 < nmz787> fenn: they're probably doing IQ tests too
12:13 <@kanzure> and then it's a multi-family arranged baby or something.... 1 chromosome from the hendersons, 1 chromosome from the hendursons, and finally they can resolve their multi-generational naming dispute in peace.
12:13 < nmz787> fenn: the point seemed to be that their govt is actively pushing/supporting a "breeding intelligence" effort
12:13 < nmz787> while we in the U.S. are all scared-talking
12:14 < nmz787> (at large, not in this chatroom)
12:14 < nmz787> https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/5gw8vn/chinas-taking-over-the-world-with-a-massive-genetic-engineering-program
12:14 < nmz787> didn't read it
12:15 < nmz787> but it was first search hit for 'china intelligence breeding'
12:16 < gradstudentbot> I hope they kick me out.
12:16 < nmz787> to China!
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12:19 <@fenn> oppressive regime creates superintelligent individuals. what could possibly go wrong?
12:20 < nmz787> white people go down the hole
12:20 <@fenn> meh
12:20 < nmz787> that'll teach us to mate with neaderthals
12:20 <@fenn> i mean the superchinese won't like being oppressed for very long, and have the ability to do something about it
12:20 < spurserh> hahaha
12:21 < spurserh> surely superobedience will be part of the super-powers package
12:21 <@fenn> not sure that changes anything
12:21 <@fenn> all it takes is one charismatic cult leader
12:22 < nmz787> I doubt it matters by then... they are engineering intelligence, not the lack of greed
12:22 < nmz787> I can't see them obliterating the society that created them... when the western alternatives are still stuck in religion-land
12:23 < nmz787> and also... the superchinese will be the elite by default, right?
12:23 < nmz787> so they're already in the drivers seat or close to it
12:23 <@fenn> i think the distinction between east and west won't mean much by then
12:24 <@fenn> urban and rural is the new dichotomy
12:24 < spurserh> living in China for some years actually made me appreciate the role of religion, as someone who grew up atheist and has never set foot in a church
12:24 <@fenn> maybe this sounds dumb, but what religion?
12:25 < spurserh> well, I guess it would be Christianity, tho I don't practice that myself
12:26 < spurserh> and also the "civic religion" of the USA, which when you get down to it, is also an irrationally held creed
12:26 <@fenn> um, so you appreciate the existence religion in the us? or christianity in china?
12:26 < spurserh> in China people act a lot closer to "homo economicus". for example, people don't even get out of the way of ambulances
12:27 < spurserh> well I did meet a few Christians in China, and their behavior did appear markedly better than the norm, but I meant the influence in the west in shaping the mainstream culture
12:27 < spurserh> seeing an ambulance stuck in traffic with no one making the slightest effort to move out of the way made an impact on my thinking. also things like lightbulbs in the hallway of apartment buildings never replaced for years and years
12:28 < spurserh> because no one wants to lift a finger to benefit anyone else, even if it hurts them
12:28 < spurserh> to leave it unfixed
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12:28 < Douhet> spurserh, that's your impression of the chinese?
12:28 < spurserh> it is
12:29 < spurserh> it's the Chinese' impression of the Chinese too, from all the Chinese I've spoken to. I'm married into a Chinese family and lived there for 5 years
12:29 < spurserh> mainland Chinese - I understand it's different in Taiwan
12:29 <@fenn> and you attribute your own sense of morals to religion? despite not having any direct contact with it
12:29 < spurserh> I recognize that it is "irrational", in the sense that I could individually benefit from defecting from those morals
12:30 <@fenn> oh come on you're practically citing the prisoner's dilemma
12:30 < spurserh> it's something that works only because everyone goes along
12:30 < spurserh> yup
12:30 < Douhet> "佛系 [fó xì] n. Buddhist+sect. The Buddhist style. This Internet slang term describes the detached and often passive attitude towards life." - spurserh could it be a legacy of buddhism?
12:30 < spurserh> the cultural revolution said: throw off morals, do whatever you please
12:31 <@fenn> (as long as it's not western)
12:31 < spurserh> bouhet: I couldn't say, but I know that it's not that way in Taiwan, Japan, South Korea
12:31 < spurserh> the Chinese I have spoken to all cited the cultural revolution as the culprit
12:31 < spurserh> the time it started
12:31 < spurserh> when they smashed all the temples and lived by the idea that everything is relative
12:32 < spurserh> having a massive famine didn't help either, in terms of making people look out for #1
12:32 < spurserh> in the west we have huge inertia around these traditions of behavior, and we don't even realize they exist. waiting in line, for example
12:33 < spurserh> people do not wait in line in China
12:33 < spurserh> they make a ball by the entrance and try to shove each other out of the way
12:34 < spurserh> so "religion" doesn't necessarily just mean Christianity. I would also include a lot of peripheral values that we follow without questioning them ever
12:34 < spurserh> maybe that second part is the more important part in the modern age
12:34 < spurserh> the "civil religion"
12:34 < spurserh> *civic
12:35 <@fenn> i think you're giving too much credit to religion
12:35 < spurserh> I just acknowledged that, insofar as organized religion goes
12:35 <@fenn> there can exist multiple different stable equilibria
12:35 < spurserh> but irrationally held / unexamined beliefs and behaviors, those are actually the bedrock of society
12:35 <@fenn> in a society where the majority waits in line, he who tries to jump ahead in line will be punished
12:35 < spurserh> right
12:35 <@fenn> in a society where everyone forms a ball, there's no line to wait in
12:36 < spurserh> but what's the mechanism that establishes that behavior? the ball is the default
12:36 < spurserh> dogs don't wait in line
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12:36 <@fenn> you can train dogs to wait in line
12:36 < spurserh> somehow a majority has to start waiting in line all at once
12:36 < spurserh> who trained us then?
12:36 <@fenn> someone in england i guess
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12:36 < spurserh> perhaps some sort of.. moral authority? :)
12:37 < spurserh> maybe a place people go every week to hear advice on how to behave
12:37 <@fenn> no i think it was probably employers and industrial efficiency consultants
12:37 < spurserh> curious that the hyper-efficiency-concerned Chinese are not doing it then
12:38 < spurserh> and that the people who did these things that I met tended to be either foreigners or Chinese Christians
12:38 <@fenn> huh you are right
12:38 <@fenn> At the beginning of the Common Era, people attending events simply gathered in mass, clustered and clumped together in an unorganised manner. After several thousand years of this they slowly gravitated to the back of individual fellows, and began to stand behind one another forming what is now colloquially referred to as "The Line"
12:38 <@fenn> oh i read that wrong, "in mass" does not mean christian mass
12:39 < spurserh> I don't claim to be right about that btw, I have not researched it
12:39 < spurserh> just offering my perspective
12:39 < Douhet> spurserh, one might argue the nobility caused the formation of lines. So they could better count their lessers, to keep order, etc.
12:40 < Douhet> lines would also be associated with military or trade formations
12:40 <@kanzure> spurserh: i'm not sure how to do superobedience yet in genetics, but i think "hard working" is a personality trait that we can go find pretty easily
12:41 <@fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientiousness#Origin
12:41 < spurserh> I guess a strong counter to the idea that it's from the church is that Japanese form lines for sure
12:42 < spurserh> probably the church just brings western standards in everything to its followers, but that's not the only wait
12:42 < spurserh> *only way
12:42 <@fenn> they imported a lot of western industrial efficiency culture in the early 20th century
12:43 < spurserh> so the theory is that people saw how well it worked at the factory, and then chose to adopt it in their own lives back home?
12:43 <@fenn> yes
12:43 < spurserh> it's an interesting theory; I wonder if the Chinese do queue at work already. I've not visited factories there
12:43 <@fenn> i'm surprised wikipedia doesn't have any information on the origin of queuing
12:44 <@kanzure> spurserh: do you know anyone in china that would be interested in hearing my "new master race" stuff?
12:44 < spurserh> if so maybe that would imply they will pick it up soon
12:44 < spurserh> @kanzure new master race? I came late to this conversation I guess
12:45 <@kanzure> no just asking
12:45 < spurserh> @kanzure what do you need from the Chinese? I guess it's not money
12:45 <@kanzure> money would be helpful, also direct statements of interest
12:45 <@kanzure> i mean i can go and do small projects but having interested people (customers or whatever) is very helpful
12:45 < spurserh> @fenn it doesn't explain the ambulance thing, does it? that has more to do with regard for strangers, no?
12:45 <@kanzure> or having someone that wants to host the lab work
12:46 <@kanzure> spurserh: we have a whole list of changes to make, and i think we can muster the expertise to go do it; but if china is really interested in the topic, then it makes things much easier for me. http://diyhpl.us/wiki/genetic-modifications/
12:46 < spurserh> @kanzure I know people who invest in wacky projects, but you'd have to make a lot of trips to China in person for dinners etc, and you'd have to explain what you're bringing to the table
12:46 < spurserh> @kanzure generally they are looking to make money, period, nothing else
12:46 <@fenn> "But what really shaped Britain's reputation as civilised queuers was World War II.
12:46 <@kanzure> i can bring prototypes, demoes, initial work to the table
12:46 <@fenn> "Propaganda at the time was all about doing your duty and taking your turn," says Bradley. "It was a way the government tried to control a situation in uncertain times."
12:47 <@fenn> The queue became loaded with meaning, drawing on notions of decency, fair play and democracy and the myth of the British as patient queuers was forged"
12:47 < spurserh> so the British believed in their country, and that their own efforts mattered to it
12:47 < spurserh> most Chinese feel insignificant, that their own actions mean nothing to China
12:48 <@kanzure> spurserh: in fact, in addition to actual IVF biology work for designer babies, i can also muster up software demos for related tech (e.g. a screen to pick and choose traits)
12:48 <@kanzure> (i mean, you could also build that; it's trivial.)
12:48 <@fenn> George Mikes wrote in his 1946 book How to be an Alien that "an Englishman, even if he is alone, forms an orderly queue of one"
12:49 < spurserh> @kanzure I think that if what you're looking for is, for example, a favorable regulatory environment for something you couldn't do in the states, but which otherwise you were fully prepared to do, that would be compelling
12:49 < spurserh> @fenn hahaha
12:50 <@kanzure> spurserh: so i'd be down to do something like that but right now my hold-up is that i want to find a good entrypoint- the right person over there, or whatever. beijing genomics institute isn't going to touch this kind of project unless someone from "their side" nudges them to work with me.
12:50 < spurserh> @kanzure I have a friend who got a bunch of money to finish his cryptocurrency project there, but he arrived with code that already worked for the core of the project (the blockchain, wallet, etc)
12:52 < spurserh> I do know who to talk to who is well connected in the government in Beijing, but the project would have to be very well formed
12:53 <@kanzure> it would have to be very far along?
12:53 <@kanzure> or just well conceived and with the right people and names already?
12:53 < spurserh> or else you'd have to have world-class credentials
12:53 < spurserh> as this guy also did
12:53 < spurserh> like if you were a published scientist from a biology program at a famous university
12:53 <@kanzure> george church
12:54 < spurserh> credentials go a long way there
12:54 <@kanzure> george hasn't done a master race yet, so he might be interested in attaching his name
12:55 <@fenn> you could hire an actor to play george church... just sayin
12:55 <@fenn> "i'd rather this project not be made public"
12:55 < spurserh> well, if you want to put together a concrete proposal with some hard hitters involved like that, I'd be willing to probe for interest
12:56 < Douhet> I'm going to guess that the kind of "well formed" would include at least a 5 year plan for budget
12:56 <@fenn> we need to find someone who is good at constructing realistic budgets
12:56 <@fenn> recently this has been an issue
12:56 < spurserh> @Douhet haha
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12:57 <@kanzure> spurserh: thanks. i'll put together some ideas and run them by you.  i don't expect this to move quickly at first until things settle into place...
12:58 < spurserh> @kanzure I wouldn't have high expectations overall, it is for sure a long shot. but maybe it can be positive anyway by motivating putting together the plan
12:58 < Douhet> things to consider: Where would the work be done. How much would that cost per year and at what points is the money needed. What equipment would be needed or utilized. Again how much per year and at what points in the year. etc etc. I've seen some programs sink because they assumed the money would arrive by the first of the year so they could make payments on rent, but it arrived in second quarter.
13:00 < Douhet> spurserh, how
13:00 < Douhet> is china doing on red envelops these days?
13:00  * Douhet isn't sure how to budget for those
13:01 < spurserh> @Douhet how what?
13:04 < Douhet> https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/29/opinion/pushing-the-red-envelope.html
13:06  * Douhet would include them as a "expedited processing fee" after further consideration
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13:09 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: designer baby stuff in recent backlog. curious about your thoughts.
13:09 <@kanzure> about china project
13:10 < yashgaroth> mhm, gimme a while I'm in key west on spotty wifi
13:18 < yashgaroth> idk how likely you are to find willing hosts in china; they are pursuing germline modification but I doubt they want random foreigners getting too close to it since it's still taboo internationally
13:18 < yashgaroth> but they do have the same ethical advantages as japan, i.e. not giving a shit about early stage embryos' souls or whatever
13:21 <@kanzure> well we also have some chinese folks that might be very interested in funding- but not without some other chinese buy-in
13:21 <@kanzure> spurserh: some of the bitcoin miners know me and are very interested in diverisifiation. but they wouldn't want to be the only ones expressing interest.
13:22 < spurserh> can you get any kind of letter of intent? seems good to add
13:25 <@kanzure> will think on it. hm.
13:25 < yashgaroth> do they want additional buy-in for more funding? or like legitimacy/gov't approval purposes
13:33 <@kanzure> they are not biologists... if beijing genomics institute said yes, that would be great. but BGI wont. have to find something else.
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14:04 <@fenn> you nee dto stop using the phrase "master race"
14:04 <@fenn> sarcasm doesn't transmit very well
14:04 <@kanzure> it's a diversity rainbow race-- one chromosome from each human ethnicity group.
14:04 < spurserh> yeahh
14:05 <@kanzure> we can call them "rainbow warriors"
14:05 < spurserh> ultra modern 21st century achievers
14:05 < spurserh> Chinese like new things
14:06 < spurserh> maybe just "new people"..
14:06 <@kanzure> i'm not actually sure why we never had a eugenics master race propaganda term.... we just had "master race" in a racial sense, not in an engineering let's go make something better sense.
14:06 < spurserh> well, it kinda was also eugenic for the Nazis
14:06 <@fenn> "newtype"
14:07 < spurserh> on the other hand, Nazi stuff doesn't have nearly the same taboo in China http://www.cracked.com/article_20584_the-5-most-absurdly-offensive-theme-weddings-ever-planned.html
14:09 <@fenn> the bride is the fembot "chii" from chobits
14:09 <@kanzure> what about robots.. was there ever a robot overlords propaganda term. er, i mean, subserviant super robots i guess?
14:10 <@kanzure> wait why do we have "robot overlords" but not "can't wait for my super fun robot slave" term?
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14:16 < fltrz> "robot bitch"?
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14:18 <@fenn> "Super-Powered Robot Meter Maids"
14:18 <@fenn> "Astro Boy was built to replace a grieving scientist's young son, and is equipped with a 100,000-horsepower engine, rocket feet, and a machine gun that comes out of his butt, among other things. Either Dr. Tenma is very strange, or his son was even stranger."
14:19 <@kanzure> perfect, yeah let's do that
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14:21 < fltrz> the founder of the Tenma oscilloscope company built himself a new son?
14:22 <@fenn> "Tenma was a renowned roboticist and the Japanese Minister of Science ... (He is the top researcher in the study of the hippocampus)"
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14:29 < pasky_> why have all the pirated papers websites zero usability?
14:30 < pasky_> http://libgen.io/book/index.php?md5=5245734E848100EB109BCBCFCC46C544 - i have no idea what am i looking at (I just put a paper link to scihub.la, I guess only the whole proceedings book is available), whether it's available to download from somewhere or... huh, gnutella, that still exists?
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14:47 <@kanzure> pasky_: click the image of the book
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15:36 < pasky_> kanzure: ...and the GET!! seriously, that didn't occur to me :(
15:38 <@kanzure> it's a puzzle to keep the companies from figuring it out (dunno)
15:42 < pasky_> lol
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17:42 <@kanzure> blort
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18:38 <@fenn> http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/ancient-fossil-microorganisms-indicate-that-life-in-the-universe-is-common  carbon dating photosynthesizers to 3.5 billion years ago
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18:55 < JayDugger> plop
19:01 < juul> Made some progress on fread.ink http://fread.ink/first_light.webm
19:02 < juul> It's still somewhat janky but i'll keep hacking away at it
19:03 <@fenn> is it worth switching away from my nook simple touch? (running android _and_ debian)
19:05 <@fenn> also you may get better performance using black text on a white background
19:12 < juul> Not yet. Give it 3-6 months. And yes I think you're right
19:12 < juul> Are you running debian using chroot?
19:13 < juul> And do you have X running?
19:13 <@fenn> no X
19:13 <@fenn> debian installs on top of android, or beside it
19:13 <@fenn> it doesn't change the kernel or any android stuff
19:13 < juul> Ok.
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21:34 <@kanzure> hm
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--- Log closed Tue Dec 19 00:00:47 2017