--- Log opened Tue Jan 09 00:00:07 2018
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07:02 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/JMRothberg/status/924249672092409856
07:02 < yoleaux> According to Modern Healthcare, the average price for ultrasound systems is $115,000. @ButterflyNetInc under $2K. https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/talkingtech/2017/10/27/doctor-says-he-diagnosed-his-own-cancer-iphone-ultrasound-machine/806085001/ (@JMRothberg)
07:03 < kanzure> $2k is absurdly expensive for ultrasound tho
07:22 < kanzure> bip98 "Fast Merkle Trees" https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0098.mediawiki
07:22 < kanzure> bip116 "MERKLEBRANCHVERIFY" https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0116.mediawiki
07:22 < kanzure> bip117 "Tail Call Execution Semantics" https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0117.mediawiki
07:22 < kanzure> bip98 and bip116 https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12131
07:22 < kanzure> bip117 https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12132
07:30 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=4e772b8c Bryan Bishop: add links to implementations of MAST stuff >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/bitcoin-core-dev-tech/2017-09-07-merkleized-abstract-syntax-trees/
07:33 < kanzure> "Imaging subcellular dynamics in multicellular organisms" https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/01/07/243352.full.pdf
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10:05 < JayDugger> Who gave the talk "Merkleized abstract syntax trees (MAST)," was it Mark Friedenbach?
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10:19 < kanzure> from bill efcavitch: " I think that a few sessions back I made, perhaps, a provocative statement that, if I used array-based synthesis costs – and I was triggering off of the number that Omri of Twist threw out which, looking at the notes from yesterday was 250 million bp of oligos for $25,000 – and then you jump to the list price of delivered DNA, I think that I had mis-estimated that ...
10:19 < kanzure> ...price differential, but it appears to be something on the order of at least 2 orders of magnitude, if I got the numbers correct."
10:19 < kanzure> so he has taken back his 10,000x comment :-)
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10:51 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=5c9ea74c Bryan Bishop: another MAST link >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/bitcoin-core-dev-tech/2017-09-07-merkleized-abstract-syntax-trees/
10:51 < kanzure> JayDugger: that's classified.
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11:05 <@fenn> the first sentence is "I am going to talk about the scheme I posted to the mailing list yesterday" which I would think makes it pretty clear who the speaker is
11:11 < kanzure> well that's not good... i forget if this is supposed to be secret.
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11:27 < JayDugger> Duly noted, and exactly how I guessed. It seemed an odd omission, but I assumed that meant error and not discretion.
11:32 < JayDugger> kanzure: You might want to put this part at the top. "I approve this chatham house rule violation"
11:51 < nmz787> kanzure: $2k seems cheap if the ultrasound is small and high-res, 4D and doppler?
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12:00 < MrHindsight> the $2k is for the AI inside  " a cheap handheld ultrasound tool with AI smarts tucked inside,"
12:01 < MrHindsight> https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-human-os/biomedical/imaging/new-ultrasound-on-a-chip-tool-could-revolutionize-medical-imaging
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12:03 < MrHindsight> https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/color-doppler-ultrasound-price.html
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12:15 < MrHindsight> https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/China-manufacturer-Factory-price-hospital-Medical_60761183221.html with Japanese guts
12:15 < MrHindsight> $100-150k
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12:51 < nmz787> MrHindsight: those kind of prices are exactly why I said $2k is cheap for a more-modern device
12:55 < nmz787> unfortunately the lame-US won't let us buy that butterfly iQ device
12:55 < nmz787> so we'll have to resort to sketchier chinese goods
12:55 < nmz787> sketchiness would probably feel much reduced if I knew mandarin
12:56 < MrHindsight> nah, still sketchy even when standing there in person
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14:08 < maaku> why put AI in the device when smartphones are ubiquitous?
14:11 < nmz787> maaku: some ASICs for running AI can be much more power efficient... though not sure that was their reasoning here
14:11 <@fenn> latency can be very annoying when tracking moving objects on a display
14:11 < maaku> nmz787: iPhone 8+ includes an inference ASIC
14:12 < maaku> fenn: using the right APIs latency should get down to 1/60th of a second
14:14 <@fenn> it's probably just some software that says "hey stop shaking the probe so much"
14:14 <@fenn> or guides you in constructing a full 3d data set
14:17 <@fenn> what is an "inference ASIC"? is that a TPU?
14:19 < maaku> essentially, yes. I haven't had time to look in detail, but that's what the developer marketing literature seems to imply
14:20 < maaku> (I also don't have an iPhone 8+ to test on)
14:28 < kanzure> is spurserh here?
14:28 < kanzure> spurserh: ping
14:34 < kanzure> .win 1
14:34 < kanzure>  ///win 1
14:48 < spurserh> hey y'all
14:49 < spurserh> @kanzure what's up?
14:49 < kanzure> just thought you'd share some words of wisdom based on the backlog
14:50 < spurserh> well I saw the alibaba link. in general I would expect hardware from China to work, just be without any documentation or support
14:51 < kanzure> (they mean the butterfly devices)
14:52 < spurserh> oh, about AI?
14:53 < kanzure> i guess so; they're asking about where to put the software for image reconstruction i think?
14:53 < spurserh> it mentions that it's for use in rural settings, so I'd imagine a high bandwidth link to a data center is not available, and power consumption might be a major concern
14:53 < spurserh> it sounds like they are talking about AI that actually analyzes the image
14:53 < spurserh> embedded ML hardware is going to become common soon in many things
14:54 < spurserh> maybe they're doing the actual ML stuff on the iPhone
14:55 < spurserh> I imagine it's some kind of neural network trained on good ultrasound images
14:55 < spurserh> ah yeah, he says that in the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWftey4ag3o
14:56 < kanzure> .title
14:56 < yoleaux> Demo of the Butterfly IQ handheld ultrasound tool - YouTube
15:06 < spurserh> professional operators are in short supply in much of the world. unfortunately such technology is pointless in the US since non-professionals can't own the hardware
15:07 < spurserh> but one can imagine this allowing less trained personnel to get good images to send to an expert for analysis
15:07 < spurserh> I remember chatting with the Mobisante guys about it back in 2013
15:07 < spurserh> glad someone is doing it finally
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17:46 < MrHindsight> any indication of the cost involved to get FDA approvals for the Butterfly IQ? not including R&D, marketing, bribes , etc
17:48 < Storyteller> it can take years
17:48 < Storyteller> I study that in school
17:49 < Storyteller> generally, 2-4 million and up
17:49 < Storyteller> for an off the cuff number
17:49 < Storyteller> 40 million is not uncommon for a drug
17:50 < Storyteller> for the regulatory costs alone, less but its tied together
17:50 < Storyteller> first, is the Butterfly IQ a class I, II or III device?
18:04 < MrHindsight> https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=892.1550
18:04 < MrHindsight> Ultrasonic pulsed doppler imaging system    Classification. Class II.
18:06 < MrHindsight>  pulsed doppler, pulsed echo and  Diagnostic ultrasonic transducer  are all Class II
18:08 < MrHindsight> https://www.fda.gov/MedicalDevices/ucm070856.htm
18:17 < kanzure> spurserh: ^
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18:35 < nmz787> fenn: TPU?
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18:35 < nmz787> fenn: I just think Thermoplatic Urethane
18:36 < nmz787> thermoplastic*
18:37 < nmz787> fenn: Tensor Processing Unit? seems a bit googly
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19:59 < kanzure> blorp
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22:23 < CaptHindsight>  a few years ago I cam across a UV absorber produced by snails, it also didn't break down when exposed to UV...
22:24 < CaptHindsight> now I can't find it, does this ring a bell with anyone?
22:24 < CaptHindsight> Benzophenones absorb, but also break down as they absorb
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--- Log closed Wed Jan 10 00:00:08 2018