--- Log opened Tue Jan 23 00:00:31 2018
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02:28 < ebowden> nmz787: You going to use your new e-beam machine to make photomasks?
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06:10 < kanzure> https://www.quantamagazine.org/ed-boyden-a-neurobiologist-thinks-big-and-small-20180118/
06:15 < kanzure> https://www.reddit.com/r/siacoin/comments/7r4spy/dev_team_thoughts_on_the_bitmain_a3/
06:15 < kanzure> "Bitmain also has a history of doing things like mining empty blocks, and like refusing to activate soft-forks that are beneficial to the network. They were openly hostile to the Bitcoin-core developers, and actively blocked the activation of a very valuable network feature (Segwit). We, the dev team, are not happy that Bitmain has made an ASIC for Sia. We are not happy that many Sia ...
06:15 < kanzure> ...supporters are at risk of losing money by buying these miners (from over-saturation), and we are not happy that Bitmain may choose to interfere with our network. This is not a commentary on general ASIC companies, this is a commentary on Bitmain specifically. We did add an extra feature to the SC1 unit that would allow us to invalidate the Bitmain hardware without invalidating the SC1. The ...
06:15 < kanzure> ...community would need to choose to adopt a soft-fork (it's not something we could just magically activate, we have to change the hashing algorithm slightly), and then we could get rid of this cycle of Bitmain hardware. Of course, they could just create another round of hardware (likely taking ~3 months). And, it would hurt Bitmain customers more than it would hurt Bitmain. Bitmain has already ...
06:15 < kanzure> ...sold around $20 million of non-refundable hardware. They have made their profit, and a soft-fork wouldn't change that. As much as I would like to punch Bitmain in the nose, I don't think a soft-fork achieves what we want. If the hardware is used to harm the Sia network, either by doing double spends, rejecting soft forks, mining empty blocks, we will invalidate it without hesitation. But for ...
06:15 < kanzure> ...the time being, I think the best thing to do is to advise people not to buy the Bitmain hardware (to protect yourself from the oversaturation that Bitmain tries to create), and then to watch and wait, and respond more if it appears that the network is under attack."
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06:44 < kanzure> maaku: have you read tadge's discreet log contracts stuff?
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06:44 < kanzure> i guess it's pretty close to scriptless scripts
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07:15 < kanzure> https://fc18.ifca.ai/bitcoin/schedule.html
07:21 < pasky> Two days in SF to find early adopters that have a lot of incoming invoices and would like to reduce that workload. (Accounting, manufacturing, reselling, logistic or other operations-heavy companies. With a teeth for technology to qualify as early adopters.) Any immediate ideas what would you do?
07:22 < pasky> (Also, I'll be in SF next week ;) if anyone wants to meet up even just to chat about deep learning and stuff.)
07:23 < kanzure> i don't think i know anyone that uses a broken invoicing system
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07:39 < kanzure> "Active touch perception produced by airborne ultrasonic haptic hologram" http://www.hapis.k.u-tokyo.ac.jp/public/hiroyuki_shinoda/research/pdf/WHC2015/WHC15_inoue.pdf
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11:04 < MrHindsight> kanzure: have you looked at focused ultrasound to inject things into cells?
11:05 < kanzure> sonoporation yes
11:05 < kanzure> focused sonoporation no
11:05 < MrHindsight> not sure what the patent mess already is but it's pretty simple to build
11:05 < kanzure> btw there's at least one company (labcyte) doing liquid handling using ultrasound
11:06 < MrHindsight> tractor beam
11:06 < kanzure> i'm more familiar with ultrasound  for e.g. increasing cell permeability and delivering new genes/drugs/whatever,
11:07 < kanzure> but focused ultrasound to force a larger object into a cell is what you mean?
11:08 < MrHindsight> few micron pore
11:08 < kanzure> on the cell membrane?
11:08 < MrHindsight> pore/channel
11:08 < MrHindsight> yes
11:08 < kanzure> that's a very focused beam
11:09 < MrHindsight> it's not individual cells
11:09 < kanzure> sonoporation is the term of art, then.
11:09 < MrHindsight> focused on an area
11:09 < MrHindsight> http://www.opensourceimaging.org/projects/ I looked most of these over..
11:10 < MrHindsight> the robot is pretty poor, not sure what they thought they were doing
11:10 < MrHindsight> some are incomplete, yet say they are all open source
11:11 < kanzure> this is the sort of stuff i like sonoporation for https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/01/01/241406
11:12 < MrHindsight> the problem is always, where do you get the brains?
11:12 < kanzure> not sure if you remember this but here's an electroporator https://github.com/kanzure/culture_shock
11:13 < MrHindsight> ueah, pretty basic
11:14 < MrHindsight> was looking for low cost ultrasound probes
11:15 < MrHindsight> the ChinaCo probes are low cost but also lower frequency ~1MHz maybe
11:15 < kanzure> kelu124's project uses single emitter probes https://arxiv.org/abs/1611.10174
11:18 < MrHindsight> arduino
11:18 < kanzure> it was his first electronics project he said
11:18 < kanzure> he picked ultrasound imaging as his first project :-)
11:18 < MrHindsight> uses an off the shelf probe
11:18 < MrHindsight> seems nobody make a low cost probe
11:19 < kanzure> spurserh: you had thoughts about super low cost probe thing right?
11:19 < MrHindsight> not difficult to make, I just don't want to waste my time if there is already one out there
11:21 < MrHindsight> https://www.ebay.com/itm/LCD-2-modes-display-Fetal-Doppler-Ultrasound-Pregnant-monitor-2MHz-probe-Alarm/172675391542
11:21 < MrHindsight> $30 2MHz
11:22 < MrHindsight> might be Chinese MHz so maybe 1MHz in the rest of the world
11:23 < spurserh> what's the question?
11:24 < spurserh> this paper appears to show the Murgen setup https://arxiv.org/pdf/1611.10174.pdf
11:25 < spurserh> @MrHindsight you're trying to do what, just emit sound waves omnidirectionally?
11:26 < MrHindsight> I'm looking at build vs buy for ultrasound probes
11:27 < MrHindsight> the duinosounder uses an off the shelf probe
11:27 < spurserh> oh I see, the paper makes their own probe
11:27 < spurserh> probe for what, imaging?
11:27 < MrHindsight> yes
11:28 < spurserh> we got good initial results starting with piezos from http://steminc.com in DI water
11:28 < spurserh> to make a probe you can use like a medical one you need to do careful acoustic impedance matching
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11:29 < spurserh> when you enclose the piezo in whatever material
11:29 < spurserh> I think it's doable, but we did not conquer that yet. I actually just bought some materials to play with maybe this weekend
11:29 < spurserh> *doable at home
11:30 < spurserh> it really depends what your purpose is, how hard it's going to be
11:30 < MrHindsight> it's doable
11:30 < MrHindsight> just don't want to waste my time if there was already a good one either low cost or DIY
11:31 < MrHindsight> spurserh: he makes a probe using cannibalized parts from another probe
11:31 < spurserh> it would be interesting to try one of those cheap doppler things. I have no idea how the properties of it are
11:32 < spurserh> our goal was always to make something from scratch so I never thought about it
11:32 < MrHindsight> it's ChinaCo, you never know
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11:32 < spurserh> originally, our design was based on a motor, like this paper
11:32 < MrHindsight> and if you get one good one, you never know what will show up next time
11:32 < spurserh> but I think that in terms of the mechanical design of the probe, impedance matching etc, we may switch to a solid state array
11:33 < spurserh> so we can just encase the array in something and be done, no moving parts
11:33 < spurserh> our strength is in electronics and signal processing, not mechanical design, so I think it makes sense to pivot
11:33 < spurserh> that way
11:35 < spurserh> if you were to get one of those baby doppler things, I don't think it solves your problem for imaging even if it is good enough acoustically
11:35 < spurserh> you still have to scan it somehow
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11:36 < spurserh> you could glue several together to make an array
11:36 < MrHindsight> I know how to make them
11:37 < spurserh> but I think the cost then approaches buying an array probe used on ebay
11:37 < MrHindsight> used is no good since it's not a reliable source for more
11:37 < MrHindsight> so I have to search for something or make it
11:38 < MrHindsight> just checking  :)
11:38 < spurserh> yeah, well as you say, ChinaCo isn't either. if you want to make a whole bunch, you're better off contracting the manufacturer in China yourself
11:38 < spurserh> then you can specify what you need exactly
11:38 < MrHindsight> and then also not be sure what you get each shipment
11:39 < MrHindsight> I have a factory in China
11:39 < MrHindsight> I know how it works
11:39 < spurserh> right but then you're the customer and can ask for correction
11:42 < spurserh> if the question is specifically if I know of a reliable supplier of devices for like $30 with probes usable for imaging, then no
11:42 < spurserh> can't help :)
11:43 < MrHindsight> <$100
11:43 < MrHindsight> https://github.com/echopen/PRJ-medtec_kit/tree/master/electronic/modules/hardware/MDL-transducer/MDL-transducer_v4
11:44 < MrHindsight> even this project, can't tell if they ripped it out of a probe or just purchased the element
11:44 < MrHindsight> http://www.imasonic.com/Medical/IMPerf.php
11:47 < spurserh> the actual piezos are readily available for $10s of dollars
11:48 < MrHindsight> my point was it's another "open source" project that doesn't list all the sources of hardware
11:48 < spurserh> yeah, lame
11:48 < MrHindsight> do they get lazy near the end?
11:49 < spurserh> I know I've done a lot of projects where I just was too lazy to post anything about it at all
11:49 < spurserh> posting is a discipline
11:49 < MrHindsight> well most people don't like writing docs
11:49 < spurserh> the fun is in doing the project :-D
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11:50 < spurserh> but yeah, it's a good thing to do to "give back" etc etc
11:51 < MrHindsight> when I started out we didn't have DSP's
11:52 < MrHindsight> we had to wire wrap an array processor, kids these days
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12:07 < MrHindsight> anyone have a cheap source for EEG/EKG etc electrodes?
12:09 < MrHindsight> hard to screw up even for China
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12:31 < JayDugger> Source, yes, but not cheap.
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12:56 < MrHindsight> https://www.ebay.com/itm/GE-9623-810P-ECG-EKG-ELECTRODES-Pack-OF-100-SOLID-GEL-TAB-ELECTRODES/152858359594  $4.95
12:58 < MrHindsight> 1,000 for $50
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13:14 < MrHindsight> have they found any side effects from long term MRI scans?
13:15 < MrHindsight> long term 10+ hours/week over a year
13:17 < superkuh> There are no possible side effects from MRI scans.
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13:57 < sachy> superkuh: MrHindsight: it depends on the magnetic properties (strenght, frequency,...) - I would assume same principle as rith radioactivity - integral of dose per time/tissue vulnerability
13:57 < superkuh> You'd be wrong.
13:58 < sachy> rith->with
14:02 < MrHindsight> hydrogen is 64MHz resonance
14:02 < MrHindsight> few teslas
14:16 < sachy> superkuh: electromagnetic induction AFAIK works not only for metal wires, but even for body fluids/long nerves. The long term is unknown, as like as RA century ago
14:17 < superkuh> Conductance is only high perpendicular to the nerve length, not longitudinally. The longitudinal resistance is very high. And the rate of change in the magnetic field of MRI machines is not high enough to induce the voltages needed to effect nerves.
14:18 < superkuh> Beyond that, to compare it to ionization from radioactive material is just silly.
14:18 < superkuh> Mild heating is not dangerous.
14:18 < superkuh> Otherwise taking a shower would be an extreme sport.
14:25 < sachy> superkuh: Im not comparing it by the *already known" effects, but by the principle of small effects over long time (friend of mine reported altered perception of body balance during full-awake MRI scans)
14:31 < superkuh> Cumulative effects of some unknown mechanism of action with undefined effects because of a once removed personal anecdote? I don't understand why anyone would assume that unless they were mentally unstable or grossly ignorant.
14:31 < superkuh> I'm trying very hard to be polite and failing.
14:31 < superkuh> I'll just go.
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14:42 < streety> Although I would agree with superkuh on the effect of the MRI scan itself. Those are quite long sessions, some pyschological effects may be possible even with the MRI turned off
14:53 < MrHindsight> back in the 80's we wondered about the effects on twisting sugars and proteins
14:54 < MrHindsight> would that cause any problems, looks like there isn't that we have noticed
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14:58 < MrHindsight> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2705217/
14:58 < MrHindsight> Biological Effects and Safety in Magnetic Resonance Imaging: A Review
14:59 < MrHindsight> "the available data on possible effects of MRI procedures relevant for patient and worker safety are not sufficient to draw any conclusions. "
15:03 < MrHindsight> https://biomedical-engineering-online.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-925X-3-11
15:04 < MrHindsight> Biological effects of exposure to magnetic resonance imaging: an overview
15:04 < MrHindsight> "RF power deposition represents the greatest risk for patient safety in MRI exams"
15:05 < MrHindsight> "widespread agreement among scientists in considering that a local increase in temperature of 1°C in a healthy individual is absolutely free of risk"
15:06 < MrHindsight> ok so my long term study of the effects of IRC on the brain using fMRI is a go!
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18:19 < nmz787> sup
18:25 < nmz787> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KReKP4WXrA
18:25 < yoleaux> Temporal and Remote Tuning of Piezophotonic-Effect-Induced Luminescence and Color Gamut - YouTube
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20:33 < kanzure> yashgaroth: since msot of the items on his list aren't reallly going to work, it makes me wonder
20:34 < kanzure> yashgaroth: like, if it's just for marketing value... and admittedly very little practical scientific gene therapy value etc... then why not just pick entirely for shock vaue?
20:34 < kanzure> *value
20:34 < kanzure> electroporator testing can be the realistic meaningful project and then maybe a few other things that are less practical?
20:37 < yashgaroth> yeah, I mean there's plenty of fodder for the film crews just in those projects, but if we're trying to shock then there's plenty more fanciful stuff
20:37 < kanzure> right... well, shock me?
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20:37 < yashgaroth> gay...plants?
20:38 < yashgaroth> wait we already did that one
20:38 < kanzure> vegan carnivorous plants
20:39 < yashgaroth> fungus genetically engineered to dispose of bodies
20:39 < kanzure> while smelling like ... bananas?
20:40 < yashgaroth> peaches are traditional
20:41 < nmz787> "millions of peaches, peaches for free"
20:41 < kanzure> mosquitos to deliver gene therapy payloads
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20:42 < nmz787> how much stipend can you sustain on yash? if we gave you a place to sleep and wash up?
20:42 < yashgaroth> can I cook food or no
20:42 < nmz787> as long as I think it tastes good
20:43 < yashgaroth> nm then
20:43 < nmz787> haha
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20:43 < nmz787> ok, I'll settle with it just having to smell good
20:43 < kanzure> nmz787 eats curry he has no sense for good smelling food
20:44 < yashgaroth> idk I'm cheap, 200 a week with no housing costs but there better be a good reason to live like that
20:44  * nmz787 plan to take over the world
20:45 < yashgaroth> I have many competing offers from people planning that
20:46 < nmz787> I wonder what the persona played by Arnold in the movie "Junior" went on to do... he might make a good live-in nanny and startup scientist
20:47 < nmz787> hmm
20:48 < nmz787> damn, I really need a bigger garage
20:48 < kanzure> i guess there's the vagina aroma engineeirng stuff that could be stolen... but i think it takes more than a few months to get that one right.. and it's not particuarly shocking.
20:48 < nmz787> "GloToes"
20:48 < nmz787> "they're your toes, but now they'll glow!!!"
20:49 < kanzure> nmz787 are you feeling alright
20:49 < kanzure> that's seriously disturbed
20:49 < nmz787> haha
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20:56 < kanzure> yashgaroth: for a designer baby project, would it be sensible to say that, eventually, given a pile of like 8 or 9 different plasmids, they could all be delivered to sperm or egg or embryo and we can get integration? we could just tell him to make a handful of plasmids with some basic stuff...
20:57 < kanzure> making plasmids isn't particularly special but you can still say "here's our work anyway".
20:57 < kanzure> uh strong emphasis on "eventually"
20:58 < yashgaroth> little early to finalize the sequences, and it's just gibson assembly tbh
20:58 < kanzure> simplicity is fine, and non-finality is also ok for these purposes right?
20:59 < kanzure> claiming that you will inject this stuff into your arm and get super biceps with like 0.00001% expression is way more stupid than saying "hey biologists will still be using plasmids much like these in the future"
20:59 < kanzure> hrm.
21:00 < yashgaroth> yeeeeah
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21:02 < kanzure> why don't we already have a large list of projects for these kinds of situations, ugh
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21:07 < MrHindsight> http://www.pnas.org/content/114/48/E10281.abstract
21:07 < kanzure> .title
21:07 < yoleaux> Closed-loop control of targeted ultrasound drug delivery across the blood–brain/tumor barriers in a rat glioma model
21:07  * kanzure nods
21:08 < MrHindsight> why I was asking earlier
21:08 < kanzure> MrHindsight: i have two biologists that i can pay for a few months to work on really crazy ridiculous projects (also they will be filmed by HBO/netflix/etc).  trying to pick projects. one is realistic (some testing of the electroporator). but the others can be more ridiculous, as long as it's within budget. ideas?
21:09 < MrHindsight> he uses microbubbles to get through other membranes
21:10 < MrHindsight> silly and a hot topic just to get eyes on it
21:10 < kanzure> kinda
21:11 < MrHindsight> why choose one to be ridiculous? Trying to keep a low profile?
21:12 < kanzure> eh it's a long story. i think it's worth experimenting with attention a little bit.
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21:17 < kanzure> yashgaroth:  what about saying "here is v0 of" a anti-dementia plasmid could be a fun one ("i decided to start this project when my dog, my oldest friend, forgot who the hell i was")  -- something like APOE knockdown and replace with less bad mutant.  call it a partial inoculation or something.
21:18 < yashgaroth> what like as a germline mod or what
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21:18 < kanzure> ehhhh i dunno, just their naked plasmid shit i guess? it sort of doesn't matter, it's more about the idea that this could be optimized and it could work in certain delivery vectors in the future.
21:19 < yashgaroth> it's a little zayner-y but I'm not above debasing ourselves for publicity
21:20 < kanzure> yeah i recognize this is zayner territory and i feel bad about it
21:20 < kanzure> dementia genetics aren't as simple as "just replace APOE" unfortunately
21:21 < yashgaroth> a diy needle electroporator for human use would be cool to demo, and use
21:21 < kanzure> i don't think they are electronics people?
21:22 < yashgaroth> glue two syringes together with a battery, but yeah it's a stretch
21:22 < kanzure> better than needle lipofection injection stuff?
21:22 < kanzure> *is it
21:22 < yashgaroth> far better efficiency
21:22 < kanzure> oh
21:23 < kanzure> i thought you were thinking about human electroporation and came back negative on it?
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21:23 < yashgaroth> even with electroporation you can't get a good amount of plasmid expression, but it's still way better than lipofection toward that goal
21:24 < kanzure> so i think it should be lipofection + electroporation. injet lipofection stuff first, wait some amount of time, then do electroporation (because you want the stuff to have diffused around to the surrounding tissue a bit).
21:24 < kanzure> *inject
21:24 < kanzure> requires testing.
21:25 < yashgaroth> liposomes fuse with cells pretty fast; the benefit could be in the low-voltage, electrophoretic effect of electroporation to convey the plasmid toward the nucleus, but idk if that works if there's no pores formed in the cells from the high-voltage pulse
21:26 < nmz787> I was thinking to use those allergy microinjector/microneedle arrays, sputter that with gold and I think it would be a usable electrode
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21:27 < nmz787> you might have to do some masking to setup electrode pairs
21:28 < yashgaroth> a good option for dermal delivery
21:29 < kanzure> "Changes in protein synthesis after death and reanimation of rabbits" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0300957272900160 (1972)
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21:31 < kanzure> "The animals were killed by exsanguination, and reanimated with artificial circulation. Post-mortem cooling was started 10 min after death. Protein synthesis was estimated from the incorporation of labelled amino acids into protein molecules. Protein synthesis ceased in all organs at different times after death, first in spleen and brain, and much later in pancreas tissue. These disturbances ...
21:31 < kanzure> ...of the assimilatory process could be reversed by artificial circulation within 20 min of death. However, the degree of restoration of protein synthesis was not uniform in the different organs; it was slight in spleen and brain, whereas in the heart and pancreas it reached the rate of that of a living organism."
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21:33 < kanzure> i wonder what they were circulating
21:36 < kanzure> yashgaroth: what about red blood cell electroporation, and then you have bloodstream expression of.. whatever you wanted i guess... for about ~100 days.  you can do this outside and then deliver it to the person.
21:37 < yashgaroth> RBCs have no nuclei or protein expression capacity
21:37 < kanzure> damn it
21:37 < nmz787> in-line electroporation is a thing
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21:37 < nmz787> aren't there white blood cells in blood?
21:38 < nmz787> FACS out the macrophages and zap them? then let them migrate all through the tissue later on, expressing <amazing thing> througout
21:38 < yashgaroth> yeah but not many, and their lifetimes are pretty meh
21:40 < yashgaroth> FACS isn't high throughput, you can just spin blood and the WBCs form a layer
21:48 < MrHindsight> kanzure: you probably want something like transferring blood or tissues using an acoustic tractor beam
21:48 < kanzure> that's what labcyte does
21:48 < MrHindsight> the guberment even funds silly things like that
21:49 < MrHindsight> ties into trackter beams like Star Trek
21:50 < MrHindsight> ultrasonic enemas
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21:52 < kanzure> "but the steers, their testes just go in the pile for sausage meat or something"
21:52 < kanzure> "so a thin slice of seminiferous tubules in a petri dish would be an interesting way to generate a very large amount of transformed sperm, as opposed to the current method of just waiting for a nice mutation, or doing IVF"
21:53 < yashgaroth> if you can convince the tubules to form mature sperm in vitro
21:55 < kanzure> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24619130
21:55 < kanzure> "GDNF was found in the medium at a sufficient concentration to support proliferating spermatogonial stem cells (SSCs) that were able to start spermatogenic differentiation after transplantation to an experimentally sterile recipient testis"
21:56 < kanzure> hey that's cheating wtf
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22:00 < kanzure> "Vitrified canine testicular cells allow the formation of spermatogonial stem cells and seminiferous tubules following their xenoplantation into nude mice" https://www.nature.com/articles/srep21919.pdf?origin=ppub
22:02 < kanzure> "Additionally, complete peccary spermatogenesis, together with the production of fertile sperm,  were observed in the tissues formed from testicular cell suspension xenografts 8 months post-grafting [18]."
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22:09 < kanzure> yashgaroth: what about red blood cells from other species. birds, reptiles. they have nuclei. "nucleated RBCs are also found in the human fetus and newborn babies"
22:10 < yashgaroth> and then injecting them into people?
22:11 < kanzure> not anytime soon
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--- Log closed Wed Jan 24 00:00:32 2018