--- Log opened Thu Mar 01 00:00:06 2018
00:01 < nmz787> http://www.mirrorsemi.com/foundry.html
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05:25 < ebowden_> Oh wow, 28 nm.
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06:41 < kanzure> .title https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/2104.html
06:41 < yoleaux> NASA - The Landscape of DNA and RNA Methylation Before, During, and After Human Space Travel
06:41 < kanzure> nmz787: $40k for reserving the whole wafer?
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07:23 < kanzure> resetting methylation in all cells is going to be difficult.  i think at best you could do initial germinal delivery of tech to stabilize methylation rates or something.. or epigenetic modifications i mean.
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08:17 < kanzure> http://www.finra.org/sites/default/files/sea-rule-15c3-1-interpretations.pdf
08:24 < kanzure> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.security.policy/wxX4Yv0E3Mk
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15:53 < kanzure> hmph
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16:46 < kanzure> professor at georgia tech says one of the largest costs in those multi-billion dollar fabs is actually the maintenance of specialty equipment
16:47 < kanzure> clean room cost is minimal, other than yelling at people to not enter or something, which requires access control or a person to shoo people away
16:48 < kanzure> laminar flow air systems really don't cost that much... they can't.
16:48 < kanzure> "cleanroom pneumatic vibration isolators"
16:50 < kanzure> (2014) "A current state of the art semiconductor fab costs around 10 billion dollars to build and equip. If you were breaking ground tomorrow it would be 3 years from now and probably 20 billion dollars to build and equip." why are these costs growing so quickly.
16:50 < kanzure> "The way to enter the business today is to buy an existing facility and then use that to move forward. There is a lot of money being made by fabs not on the leading edge."
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16:53 < kanzure> "The clean room contains the steppers for photolithography, etching, cleaning, doping and dicing machines. All these devices are extremely precise and thus extremely expensive. Prices for most common pieces of equipment for the processing of 300 mm wafers range from $700,000 to upwards of $4,000,000 each with a few pieces of equipment reaching as high as $130,000,000 each (e.g. steppers). A ...
16:53 < kanzure> ...typical fab will have several hundred equipment items."
16:53 < kanzure> which steppers cost $130m?
16:54 < kanzure> "... Shown in Figure 2 are market shares for I-line steppers, which offer the lowest resolution of all the types of lithography tools and sell for $4-6 million"
16:54 < kanzure> wtf
16:55 < kanzure> "ASML is the only company with next-generation lithography tools on the market, with its EUV (extended ultraviolet) tool having sold four units in 2016 at an average selling price of $110 million."
16:55 < kanzure> wtf
16:56 < kanzure> https://seekingalpha.com/article/4139540-asmls-dominance-semiconductor-lithography-sector-far-reaching-implications
16:56 < kanzure> https://seekingalpha.com/article/4059013-switch-asmls-euv-lithography-will-impact-entire-semiconductor-supply-chain
16:56 < kanzure> "In 2016, ASML sold 139 new and a handful of refurbished lithography tools for semiconductor manufacturing"
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17:21 < kanzure> why do they keep whole rooms clean, and not build enclosures around important things? you could isolate sections if you need to open up the acrylic panels to replace a part; you don't need to cross-contaminate or something.
17:26 < fenn> they do have enclosures, but dirt gets in anyway and maintaining the outside relatively clean prevents super high levels of contamination
17:26 < fenn> usually the entire wafer handling line is done with robots in a sealed enclosure
17:27 < fenn> modern fabs use huge wafer sizes, which aren't necessary for just resolving a certain feature size
17:28 < fenn> multiply the cost of everything by the wafer diameter
17:28 < fenn> (also multiply the throughput by the wafer diameter squared)
17:28 < fenn> er, radius
17:28 < fenn> you know what i mean
17:29 < kanzure> someone was asking me about a fab exclusively dedicated to bitcoin mining and whether that would reduce the overall cost.
17:29 < kanzure> but that's mostly a mask creation issue
17:30 < fenn> i got the impression mining hardware was a small cost compared to electricity
17:30 < kanzure> ya but there's still a manufacturing bottleneck
17:30 < kanzure> ah i meant, cost of the fab
17:30 < kanzure> not per miner
17:30 < kanzure> projects become less doable when you start asking for $15 billion dollars
17:31 < fenn> didnt you say $40k for a trial run
17:31 < kanzure> i've heard all kinds of numbers, including $5k for just a small section of a wafer bundled with other projects
17:37 < ebowden_> Damn. You know, back in the day custom ASICs were created for just one computer game.
17:38 < ebowden_> Things are a wee bit more expensive now.
17:45 < kanzure> why would a single game need a custom asics? i think all runs of the game would use the same asic.
18:01 < ebowden_> Obviously every copy of the game uses the same ASIC on its ROM cartridge, but making an ASIC just for one game has not been done for a long time.
18:07 < kanzure> "High resolution transmission spectrum of the Earth's atmosphere -- Seeing Earth as an exoplanet using a lunar eclipse" https://arxiv.org/abs/1405.4780
18:08 < kanzure> "If you really want to get things over with quick, 10gs will get you there in well under 2 years. I wonder if that's survivable, if you were under water the whole time with a scuba tank or something?"
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18:17 < ebowden_> lol
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21:49 < nmz787> kanzure: it was a quote from Quora... so not sure, maybe I could check it again and try to hunt the guy down to ask via email
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--- Log closed Fri Mar 02 00:00:07 2018