--- Log opened Sun Apr 08 00:00:42 2018
00:07 < TMA> nmz787: 200 is religion heading in Dewey. the form is for ordering either (a) webdewey (b) abdridged 15[th edition] (c) [full] 200 Religion [section]
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08:27 < kanzure> justanotheruser: i think there might be simpler ways to do nanotech :-/
08:28 < fenn> see drexler's blog
08:31 < fenn> http://web.archive.org/web/20091230211515/http://metamodern.com/2009/03/19/a-high-performance-polymer-for-nanosytems-engineering/
08:44 < justanotheruser> hmm, I forgot he had a blog, that's useful
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09:02 < justanotheruser> what specifically are the simpler ways? Those mentioned in the other texts your nanotech page cites?
09:15 < kanzure> well i think that ribosomes and biological machinery are a step towards molecular nanotechnology
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14:33 < nmz787> hey, actual pricing right up front:
14:33 < nmz787> http://www.aimphotonics.com/mpw/
14:33 < nmz787> .title
14:33 < yoleaux> Multi Project Wafer (MPW) — AIM Photonics
14:34 < nmz787> I definitely miss living in Rochester for these sort of reasons
14:36 < nmz787> $30k for (20) 7.7 mm^2 photonics-grade chips
15:39 < fenn> for that kind of money you can afford to make a site visit if needed
15:40 < fenn> but it doesn't seem like the kind of thing they need you physically present for
15:42 < fenn> why is this stuff so expensive?
16:53 < nmz787> unions?
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17:24 < kanzure> hmm.
17:36 < kanzure> yashgaroth: how important are the diagrams and images on addgene? e.g. http://www.addgene.org/19143/
17:37 < kanzure> assuming sequence data is already captured
17:42 < yashgaroth> sequence data including annotations? the circle map is I think auto-generated based off that, and that scanned-in page...shouldn't be necessary
17:45 < yashgaroth> admittedly they don't have the insert gene listed as a 'feature' but you can maybe auto-BLAST mystery gene sequences if you want it tagged for a database
17:46 < kanzure> which file has the annotations? the gbk file?
17:47 < yashgaroth> I think so, if I open it with snapgene it seems to populate them onto the map
17:50 < yashgaroth> it doesn't label the BRG1 gene since that's only in the scanned page, but most people do annotate that stuff
18:04 < kanzure> alright, i'll grab only the gbk files
18:04 < kanzure> yashgaroth: could you look at http://www.addgene.org/19143/ and identify any other files that you'd like me to grab from their whole database?
18:12 < yashgaroth> the partial sequences aren't very useful, but if you could scrape the DOI number that'd be good since they don't have it in the gbk file, only the pubmed ID
18:30 < kanzure> what about those them ".dna" files
18:38 < yashgaroth> I think that's just snapgene's proprietary format, doesn't seem to have any more data despite being 3x the size and unreadable as a txt file
18:39 < yashgaroth> unless it's got basecalls in there or something, but even then it's not worth
18:46 < kanzure> hmm i have references but not DOIs.r
18:47 < yashgaroth> idk if there's a better way than [find string that starts with 10. on the main page] since they're usually down in the "For your References section:
18:47 < yashgaroth> "
18:51 < kanzure> alright, i have those pages so i could extract those
18:54 < yashgaroth> it's not essential, you can uuuusually get a DOI from the pubmed ID, but just in case; only if it's easy
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18:56 < kanzure> aaaaaa the aws s3 signatures have already expired ffffff
18:57 < kanzure> see, this is why everyone needs to die
18:58 < yashgaroth> idk what that means, but if it's any hassle to grab the DOIs then don't bother
18:58 < kanzure> no this is the images and gbk files
18:58 < kanzure> https://media.addgene.org/snapgene-media/v1.5.26-0-g82d7ad5/sequences/27/51/182751/addgene-plasmid-100000-sequence-182751-map.png?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJSKCQHUCAPIGV4OQ&amp;Expires=1523214920&amp;Signature=9hOrYZqGdHHID5%2BhnvCbcmmU8RM%3D
18:58 < kanzure> those are the links that i have
18:58 < kanzure> but to get the file you need a signature that is more recent with a later expiry
18:59 < kanzure> like:
18:59 < kanzure> https://media.addgene.org/snapgene-media/v1.5.26-0-g82d7ad5/sequences/19/38/191938/addgene-plasmid-100000-sequence-191938-map.png?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJSKCQHUCAPIGV4OQ&Expires=1523282361&Signature=vAofTjxhTxk%2FMqghn1v4%2FYXV9z8%3D
19:01 < yashgaroth> oh no
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19:06 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjGdNuy6G_Q
20:00 < fltrz> I was thinking about the CO2 condensation @ antarctica proposal, and the energy cost per kg... what if we cool the CO2 atmospheric CO2 with evaporating CO2?
20:01 < fltrz> this sounds like a nonsense operation
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20:02 < fltrz> but what if we evaporate them in big balloons? they would still absorb and reemit IR but the amount of IR (from both sun and earth would mostly miss the balloons since their diameter is small compared to when its diffused in atmosphere
20:03 < fltrz> one could let the balloons go up, or leave them anchored on site
20:03 < fltrz> the heat off evaporation is the same as the heat for condensation
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20:21 < fenn> past a certain altitude the atmospheric temperature starts to rise again
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20:23 < fenn> i guess you are talking about shielding the balloon from the earth's infrared by adding several layers of mirrors below them
20:24 < fenn> like that damned space telescope
20:30 < CaptHindsight> fenn> why is this stuff so expensive?
20:30 < CaptHindsight> because the people behind it are only in it for the money
20:31 < fenn> i really doubt that
20:32 < fenn> there are much more profitable endeavors than prototype photonics chips
20:32 < CaptHindsight> yeah but it's what they have
20:33 < CaptHindsight> somehow they ended up with a fab
20:33 < CaptHindsight> somebody has to run it
20:33 < CaptHindsight> and the MBA rules require them to put profit first
20:34 < CaptHindsight> not everybody can get a job screwing banks and stock markets over
20:34 < CaptHindsight> or cleaning out nations treasuries
20:36 < CaptHindsight> I seen people ask about why anyone would be involved with any open source on business forums
20:36 < CaptHindsight> they just could not wrap their minds around doing something that you don't control and make an immediate and direct profit from
20:37 < CaptHindsight> make/don't make
20:45 < fltrz> fenn, who cares if the temperature rises, so the balloon should be loose or large enough to contain the CO2. I don't think mirrors are even necessary, consider a hot patch of earth surface, it radiate IR in roughly a halfsphere of directions, only a few steradians would hit the distant balloon, think of it as a cross-section, the same for photons from the sun towards earth
20:46 < fltrz> the cross-section of co2 distributed in atmosphere like today is much larger than if we concentrated the co2 in spheres
20:46 < fltrz> durability is dubious though
20:47 < fltrz> but the energy consumption for concentrating them could be made much more minimal by recycling the latent heat and the heat in heat capacity from boiling point to antarctic temperature
20:49 < fltrz> I don't think they would rise though, CO2 is heavier than air
20:50 < fltrz> so we stuff antarctica full of co2 balloons when its still affordable (cold enough) and figure out what to do with them later?
20:50 < fltrz> sounds like a really bad idea, but worth considering
20:54 < fltrz> in that case you might want to cover the balloons so they dont absorb too much sunlight and heat antarctica
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21:01 < fltrz> why are you interested in photonics chips?
21:05 < fenn> even at ISS altitudes the earth occupies half the sky
21:08 < fenn> you could keep the balloons near the ground and insulate them from the ground (multi layer radiant barrier)
21:08 < fenn> and from the sun of course
21:09 < fenn> you'd end up with something like a parabolic solar concentrator, but pointed at the dark sky
21:17 < fltrz> sure, but before the CO2 can reradiate heat it must be radiated with it, the optical flux through the balloons is much smaller
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21:19 < fltrz> lets break the reradiation of CO2 (whether balloon or in atmosphere) in 2 parts: A) visible light and IR heat earth, earth radiates far IR in all directions off into space, but a fraction of this light is absorbed by CO2 and re-emitted as heat
21:20 < fltrz> B) some far IR heat hits CO2, CO2 re-radiates IR to earth
21:21 < fltrz> in both processes the amount of IR CO2 radiates is proportional to how much optical flux it received, decreasing the cross-section decreases the amount it can re-radiate
21:22 < fltrz> in B) the CO2 was radiated by the sun directly
21:24 < fltrz> another way of viewing it: consider the penetration depth of IR in CO2, and pretend atmospheric CO2 were concentrated into a pure layer of CO2, the probability of IR photon being absorbed is substantial
21:25 < fltrz> if on the other hand we put the same amount of CO2 in ballooons, whatever IR per square meter hits the IR transparent balloon will certainly be absorbed and re-emitted, but the fraction of photons hitting them will be decreased substantially
21:25 < fltrz> since then most simply miss the balloon to start with
21:28 < fltrz> in the comparison between CO2 in balloons at atmospheric height and uniformly distributed CO2 at atmospheric heights, in this comparison the steradians the earth occupies from that same height is identical
21:30 < fltrz> what matters is the number of steradians the CO2 occupies, from the perspective of the sun on for the B) mechanism, and the steradians from the perspective of a patch of earth at ground level for the A) mechanism
21:32 < fltrz> co2 forms a thermal blanket, if we crumple it up in little balls we will be more effective at re-radiating heat to dark cold space
21:35 < fltrz> but I don't think they would fly, they would be stuck on the ground because CO2 is heavier than air, not that it changes much: the sun's inclination at antarctica is rather low even in the winter, and dark all the timee in the summer
21:37 < fltrz> in fact transparent CO2 balloons could be used on antarctica to provide heating in the sunny season, or generate power by the difference in temperature of ambient air and the temperature in the balloons, instead of loads of solar panels all the balloons together could serve generating power
21:39 < fltrz> which photosynthetic organism thrives under what highest CO2 concentration?
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21:53 < l_wl> Trees and flowers and stuff
21:56 < fltrz> lol :) btw the paper seems to use long scale "1 billion = 10^12"
22:02 < fltrz> wouldnt most plants suffocate in high CO2 concentrations?
22:13 < l_wl> What about that algae on rocks that made O2 billions of years ago for earth - and it's decendent's that live in caves or rocks under the ground
22:14 < l_wl> Firmicutes
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23:26 < fenn> oh i thought you were talking about trying to cool off the balloons in order to liquefy the CO2, not to limit the impact on global warming of the CO2 contained within them
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--- Log closed Mon Apr 09 00:00:42 2018