--- Log opened Sun Apr 15 00:00:48 2018
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06:34 < kanzure> hmph
06:41 < kanzure> "trillions of viruses fall from the sky every day" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16839636
06:41 < kanzure> hadn't considered the atmosphere as a potential virus bioreactor but it makes sense
06:41 < kanzure> "One study estimated that viruses in the ocean cause a trillion trillion infections every second, destroying some 20 percent of all bacterial cells in the sea daily."
06:41 < kanzure> ""Viruses, A Very Short Introduction" by Dorothy H Crawford, says this on page 21: "There are around 10e6 different viral species in a kilogram of marine sediment where they infect and kill co-resident bacteria. Overall, marine viruses kill an estimated 20-40% of all marine bacteria every day.""
06:44 < kanzure> "Each day, they calculated, some 800 million viruses cascade onto every square meter of the planet"
06:45 < kanzure> "Deposition rates of viruses and bacteria above the atmospheric boundary layer" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41396-017-0042-4
06:50 < kanzure> that would be a fun message-in-a-bottle project
06:50 < kanzure> i wonder if these viruses are active
06:54 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/ico_TC/status/985439407363764224
06:54 < yoleaux> I like that guy: "My code is a gift to the world and its value is in no way decreased by someone else using it, no matter how" @azonenberg (@ico_TC)
06:54 < kanzure> not sure what the context is
07:04 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/direlog/status/984914676252315648
07:04 < yoleaux> i hate sci-fi that insists it’s ~human~ and ~authentic~ to die, and that immortality turns you into a ~monster~. fuck that. i want to be a monster. i want to live for a trillion years and watch the stars burn out (@direlog)
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08:17 < kanzure> are there no ssDNA-input ssDNA-output polymerases?
08:20 < kanzure> "inactivation of phi29 polymerase exonuclease activity by site-directed mutagenesis meant that a 350 fold lower dNTP concentration was required to achieve the same rates of primer elongation seen in the wild type enzyme.[5]"
08:20 < kanzure> [5] Garmendia C, Bernad A, Esteban JA, Blanco L, Salas M (February 1992). "The bacteriophage phi 29 DNA polymerase, a proofreading enzyme". J. Biol. Chem. 267 (4): 2594–9. PMID 1733957.
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10:02 < kanzure> "Are you aware of any  introductory material (online videos, lectures, practical sessions, books, etc...) demonstrating the principles of the design and fabrication of scientific instruments?"
10:02 < kanzure> dunno what to show this guy..
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10:18 < streety> what sort of instruments?
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10:41 < kanzure> uh well he expressed interest in electroporation and spectrophotometry... but yeah.
10:41 < kanzure> maybe that MIT machining course that was on youtube
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12:07 < streety> a general electronics course would be useful, optics for the spectrophotometry
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13:35 < adlai> .wik phi29
13:35 < yoleaux> adlai: Sorry, that command (.wik) crashed.
13:35 < adlai> .google phi28
13:36 < adlai> .wik phi29 dna polymerase
13:36 < yoleaux> adlai: Sorry, that command (.wik) crashed.
13:36 < adlai> well this is useful, so much for "everyone uses the same alphabet", fenn
13:37 < adlai> .wik bacillus phage phi29
13:37 < yoleaux> "Bacillus phage phi29 (Φ29 phage) belongs to a family of related Bacteriophages which includes, in addition to Φ29, phages PZA, Φ15, BS32, B103, M2Y (M2), Nf and GA-1. These phages, which form part of the Podoviridae family, are the smallest Bacillus phages isolated to date and are among the smallest known dsDNA phages." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_phage_phi29
13:52 < mrdata> how many base pairs?
13:57 < fltrz> I think I am going crazy: according to some result from the 90's hash-based secret key agreement is impossible, but I have a toy protocol in my head and to me it seems to satisfy information theoretic security, not even relying on hash functions (except for signatures such that Eve can't MitM), so unconditional security
13:59 < fltrz> I'm not sure how widely accepted this result from the 90's is. How should I consult/poll the community of cryptographers to find out how many accept or reject the result from the 90's? crypto stack exchange?
14:04 < mrdata> fltrz, link here please
14:04  * mrdata has implemented crypto
14:10 < fltrz> to the 90's paper?
14:10 < fltrz> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Russell_Impagliazzo/publication/2477849_Limits_on_the_Provable_Consequences_of_One-way_Permutations/links/09e41511133b689298000000/Limits-on-the-Provable-Consequences-of-One-way-Permutations.pdf
14:12 < fltrz> the impression conveyed to me by 1 individual was: this paper proved [that one can not make a black-box reduction proof [proving the security of a hash-based secret key agreement protocol as secure as the hash in use]]
14:14 < fltrz> the impression I was left with was that probably the cryptographic community saw this as a valid dead-end for hash-based secret key agreement over a public channel
14:14 < l_wl> .wik phi29
14:14 < yoleaux> l_wl: Sorry, that command (.wik) crashed.
14:15 < l_wl> .google phi28
14:16 < fltrz> but now I am starting to doubt 1) if the results from the paper are widely accepted; and also doubt 2) if there are people accepting 1) but who still think hash-based secret key agreement protocols may still be found and proven, but not in the black-box reduction form
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14:41 < mrdata> crypto implementers are usually satisfied with "good enough for now"
14:46 < kanzure> fltrz: i would ask in #bitcoin-wizards
14:46 < kanzure> or andytoshi
14:46 < kanzure> andytoshi: ^
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14:53 < kanzure> https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23831730-300-making-babies-how-to-create-human-embryos-with-no-egg-or-sperm/
14:54 < fltrz> mrdata, are crypto implementers at all interested in (im)possibility proofs?
14:56 < mrdata> id have to say we take the results and try to work around the problems
14:56 < mrdata> for example by adding salt to hashes
14:56 < mrdata> etc
14:59 < fltrz> the paper above does not attack or defend a specific cryptosystem, it 'merely' talks about what kinds of cryptosystems are possible, from a foundational perspective
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15:13 < fenn> "building scientific apparatus" by moore, davis and coplan covers a lot of material to a practical level
15:13 < fenn> dan gelbart's prototyping series on youtube is pretty good: http://youtu.be/xMP_AfiNlX4
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15:30 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8D3B363139B67FF3
15:30 < kanzure> maybe i'll send that one.
15:31 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAROrg3NQn7dGPxb9CFtxwbgzLNaaj1Oe
15:32 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLa7G9a0g8LGL_ApmTcVPv_Z_QVHYrRw6G
15:32 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPJQlEokVM70zzWCbuYa3Uee2wAfIWgS9
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15:45 < fltrz> is the person interested in the precision manufacturing itself? or in the "trick" of the machine?
15:46 < kanzure> he seems to have low resources so probably wants to make stuff himself
15:47 < fltrz> oh thats a third interpretation, cheap DIY gear at home
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15:48 < kanzure> well he's an associate professor at a school in egypt
15:56 < CaptHindsight> fenn: all of his videos are great, what many people don't get is the accuracy of his machines and why they are so
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16:07 < CaptHindsight> fenn: speed course in machine design  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3D4EECEFAA99D9BE  ~40 hours total
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16:09 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/polymerase/Catalytic%20mechanism%20of%20DNA%20polymerases%20-%202010.pdf
16:09 < kanzure> good review.
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16:23 < kanzure> "polymerases with proofreading ability can reach a fidelity of less than one error for every 1e9 nucleotides replicated"
16:27 < kanzure> reverse transcriptases produce ssDNA from RNA.. so why not just use that mechanism attached to another polymerase.
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16:35 < CaptHindsight> Comprehensive Natural Products II: Chemistry and Biology  Buy EBOOK $5.670.00
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17:10 < fenn> .title https://www.nature.com/articles/nmat4829
17:10 < yoleaux> Self-organized amniogenesis by human pluripotent stem cells in a biomimetic implantation-like niche | Nature Materials
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17:11 < kanzure> er, how did you end up there
17:12 < fenn> reading about inflatable heat shields on new scientist
17:12 < kanzure> makes.. sense.
17:12 < fenn> DUH!!!
17:12 < fenn> authors are from department of mechanical engineering? huh?
17:12 < kanzure> oh i couldn't read that link actually. paywall.
17:13 < kanzure> (newscientist link)
17:14 < fenn> meh
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17:14 < fenn> i was hoping for a little humanoid, but this is just a circle of cells
17:15 < kanzure> i would not be confident in trying to make humans from non-egg non-sperm... nuclear transfer might work but i'm really not sure the initial conditions are right to produce a viable organism.
17:15 < kanzure> ooplasm transfer might also help make things work better.
17:15 < fenn> it works in mice
17:15 < fenn> not this specific technique
17:16 < kanzure> this is in contrast to my opinion on oocyte/sperm freezing, which is that 'it seems to work pretty damn well' (e.g... early stage life can take a lot of damage and be totally fine)
17:17 < kanzure> i bet you could mechanically pluck a cell from a 50-cell embryo and the embryo will be fine even if you keep plucking a cell off faster than it can replace the cell
17:17 < fenn> yeah but there's not really demand for mass produced humans at the moment
17:18 < kanzure> someone was trying to convince me to focus on human cloning ("it has lower risk than producing a new child")
17:18 < kanzure> and one of their arguments was that billionaires might want to make a thousand child-clones and just pick the best near the end of the pregnancies
17:19 < fenn> that sounds more like a counter-argument
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17:19 < kanzure> it's an example of a situation where mass production is valuable- if you want to have a lot of options and to factor out various uncertainties
17:19 < superkuh> http://superkuh.com/pictures/plif/wc263.gif
17:20 < kanzure> can't help but wonder why superkuh had that link so handy
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17:21 < kanzure> there seem to be hundreds of comics in that directory
17:21 < CaptHindsight> mass produced humans are used to change the demographics of nations
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17:32 < emeraldgreen> >fenn: yeah but there's not really demand for mass produced humans at the moment
17:32 < emeraldgreen> I bet chinese and western governments would pay huge $$$ in private for producing geniuses, I also wonder if chinese are already underway with such projects in private (looking at their basketball giant)
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17:34 < fenn> mass produced geniuses seems like a really bad idea for any state entity
17:36 < CaptHindsight> you want most people to be stupid so that they just follow vs challenge your power
17:38 < CaptHindsight> if more were just born dumb vs being dumbed down that could be a big seller
17:41 < emeraldgreen> fenn It could be prisoner's dilemma like with nukes. Also governments are desperate to outsmart each other and they are even more desperate to up GDP growth
17:41 < kanzure> CaptHindsight: where would you find the first parents (customers)
17:42 < emeraldgreen> CaptHindsight I doubt "dumb" people are profitable. Real unemployment is in ~40%, cynically speaking these people are a drag on economy from govt'd POV (welfare, healthcare costs etc).
17:44 < emeraldgreen> Complacent, agreeable yet smart people are preferable to dumb agreeable people and smart contrarian people, I think
17:44 < emeraldgreen> (from govt POV)
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17:47 < fenn> how do you prevent dumb contrarian people from convincing smart aggreable people to help them? (non state-affiliated dumb contrarian people)
17:48 < fenn> i mean how is the smart aggreable person supposed to know which dumb person to help?
17:48 < kanzure> whether someone is dumb has no bearing on whether you want to be convinced on any particular topic
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17:49 < fenn> oh god i'm in rationalist hell again
17:49  * fenn goes back to reading comics
17:50 < CaptHindsight> I'm just pointing out history
17:50 < emeraldgreen> fenn dunno
17:51 < emeraldgreen> Though chinese also do some political research on preventing undesirable grassroots organizing, I heard, they hire political consultants from all over the world
17:52 < CaptHindsight> as long as most people are doing better than they were or feel that they will be  they don't complain
17:52 < CaptHindsight> people there don't even discuss politics
17:54 < CaptHindsight> most people there over 50 had a roof, bucket, chair, goat etc
17:55 < CaptHindsight> the kids have designer clothes, smartphones and drive cars
17:56 < fenn> all thanks to genuine 100% authentic communism
17:57 < CaptHindsight> heh
17:57 < CaptHindsight> have better capitalists than the US for a few decades
17:57 < CaptHindsight> running things
17:58 < fenn> supposedly china will be strengthening intellectual property protections
17:58 < kanzure> CaptHindsight: so where would you find the first parents or the first customers?
17:58 < kanzure> for engineered progeny
17:58 < CaptHindsight> parents probably won't want it
17:59 < kanzure> what why?
17:59 < CaptHindsight> it would need to be more of something you add to the water everyone drinks
17:59 < emeraldgreen> kanzure narcissistic billionaires? Or probably 100M$-ers, some obscure wealhy people living in private without any media exposure?
17:59 < kanzure> lots of parents want what's best for thier children.
17:59 < kanzure> emeraldgreen: you are severely overestimating the costs of this procedure
17:59 < fenn> shh
18:00 < fenn> don't spill the beans
18:00 < kanzure> alright alright
18:00 < CaptHindsight> maybe we are talking about two different things
18:00 < emeraldgreen> kanzure Then maybe some sectarians or libertarians
18:00 < fenn> raelians
18:00 < kanzure> do they raelians have any money?
18:00 < emeraldgreen> fenn :thumbs_up:
18:00 < emeraldgreen> kanzure scientologists?
18:00 < CaptHindsight> I was talking about a make/keep people dumb product
18:01 < fenn> thorazine?
18:01 < fenn> SSRI's?
18:02 < fenn> call your doctor at once if you have a serious side effect such as: unusual thoughts or behavior
18:02 < emeraldgreen> CaptHindsight some social media software sprinkled with random rewards and dark patterns would be enough
18:04 < CaptHindsight> emeraldgreen: public school has been doing most of that work for decades
18:05 < fenn> potentially relevant http://superkuh.com/pictures/plif/88.html
18:05 < emeraldgreen> CaptHindsight really? I think it's the opposite, I wouldn't be decent in math without coercive schooling. Anyway, it's a political argument. Kanzure needs buyers, so we need some ideas
18:06 < emeraldgreen> fenn Imagine another von Neumann
18:06 < emeraldgreen> What could he do now with advanced computing :thinking:
18:18 < fenn> here's another one http://superkuh.com/pictures/plif/121.html
18:32 < kanzure> goal is to be a little better than hitler every day
18:37 < fenn> business plan C http://superkuh.com/pictures/plif/203.html
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21:20 < fltrz> plif is short for spliff?
21:20 < fltrz> :P
21:23 < mrdata> and here i thought a roach is a short spliff
21:36 < kanzure> huh?
21:37 < mrdata> silly sunday
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--- Log closed Mon Apr 16 00:00:49 2018