--- Log opened Wed Apr 18 00:00:51 2018
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06:13 < adlai> kanzure: ever had a carpal tendon ask for a vacation? it's not a fun trip for people who type for a living.
06:14  * adlai hasn't measured his wpm integral [yet], but the knuckles click louder than the keys somedays, and tendons in both arms have been asking for non-bullshit medical industries for years
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06:29 < kanzure> no
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06:35 < kanzure> https://www.reddit.com/r/academicpublishing/
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08:05 < kanzure> "Event segmentation improves event memory up to one month later" https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Heather_Bailey2/publication/315813254_Event_Segmentation_Improves_Event_Memory_up_to_One_Month_Later/links/5a341b4fa6fdcc769fd22e75/Event-Segmentation-Improves-Event-Memory-up-to-One-Month-Later.pdf
08:05 < kanzure> man... those urls.
08:05 < kanzure> they are worse than mine
08:58 < kanzure> andytoshi: https://www.quantamagazine.org/decades-old-graph-problem-yields-to-amateur-mathematician-20180417/
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09:18 < adlai> fltrz: i'm gonna bet that the easiest way for software to get a sense of the keyboard layout is by asking the kid to fold down the laptop lid until the camera can see the keys, and asking the kid to peel back the useless placebo his paranoid older sibling stuck there
09:19 < kanzure> i thought usb keyboards can report things
09:23 < andytoshi> when you change the layout on a keyboard you don't usually do it on the keyboard itself, you just remap the keys in the OS
09:41 < maaku> https://www.esat.kuleuven.be/cosic/publications/article-2803.pdf
09:41 < maaku> "In this paper, we fully reverse engineer the proprietary protocol between a device programmer and a widely used commercial neurostimulator ... [we] show that the transmissions sent over the air are neither encrypted nor authenticated"
09:41 < maaku> That's alarming.
09:42 < kanzure> biologists ain't gonna encrypt data why would they do that
09:42 < maaku> these are consumer devices I think. acutally deployed therapies
09:43 < kanzure> FDA-approved?
09:43 < maaku> andytoshi: many people move the keys because they don't have 100% accurate touch typing skills
09:44 < andytoshi> maaku: would not surprise me if we have to wait a few more decades for people who grew up with computers to be old enough to be the bulk of people who need these sorts of neurotransmitters
09:44 < andytoshi> and even then.. :/. probably some high-profile attacks need to happen
09:44 < maaku> these things are used now for chronic pain management
09:44 < kanzure> also parkinsons
09:45 < kanzure> also heart implants are often insecure
09:45 < maaku> making them an unsecured torture device and/or seizure trigger
09:45 < andytoshi> right, but how many security researchers do you know using these things
09:45 < andytoshi> i agree that this is psychotic and very alarming
09:46 < andytoshi> but it's unclear to me how to make noise about it in a useful way
09:46 < kanzure> one of the problems is going to be that brain implants are usually extremely low power
09:46 < kanzure> often you have to do wireless power coupling things
09:47 < maaku> andytoshi: having an off-the-shelf network communication layer that Just Works
09:47 < maaku> make it easier to do the right thing than to reinvent the wrong thing yourself
09:48 < andytoshi> this was the dream of tls
09:48 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/implants/
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09:55 < andytoshi> maaku: https://www.digi.com/resources/documentation/Digidocs/90001110-88/tasks/t_set_up_basic_encryption_for_your_xbee_network.htm last i looked at wireless devices everyone was using xbee .. which was before IoT was a thing so perhaps things have changed .. and even back then, 2010/11, "the next version of the protocol" was going to have encryption
09:56 < andytoshi> ditto for BACnet, which is used in building automation
09:56 < andytoshi> so there is some progress .. but ultimately the defaults are always going to be "no encryption" to satisfy users who don't have/don't want to think about keys
09:58 < andytoshi> and when i worked in building automation i recall the kind of people working on that, who would bitch and moan about having to think about crypto stuff, and who were often hard to convince that this mattered at all..
09:58 < andytoshi> so there is a hard social problem
09:58 < andytoshi> and maybe lobbying the FDA would be more effective than trying to fix developers
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10:04 < CaptHindsight> if it costs time and money then you need a law
10:04 < kanzure> music! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPjCwXyvTG8&t=5m
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10:30 < maaku> andytoshi: i don't know, bluetooth has tofu encryption and authentication built in, which everything supports
10:31 < maaku> it has problems, but sometimes just making it built into the standard and reference and not optional is enough
10:32 < kanzure> also, if you're gonna advocate for secure braincryption then plz also advocate for user hackability because damn
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11:32 < fltrz> sounds like a bad idea, probably a brainfart, but perhaps companies that should be using encryption should be forced to insure, such that the insurance companies will hire security experts to estimate risk for setting the insurance cost
11:33 < fltrz> so whenever an employee goes: do we really need the crypto? a colleague or superior can reply with: if you want to pay our higher premium insurance, sure
11:36 < kanzure> you mean, higher premiums for not having good cryptography?
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14:07 < andytoshi> maaku: hm, good point
14:07 < andytoshi> ditto for wifi (though it had a few false starts)
14:08 < andytoshi> fltrz: i can dream :)
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14:32 < adlai> fltrz: i've been telling the insurance startup that sent its headhunter at me that it's not a security company. right now the seem to be hiring lots of graphic artists, at least the founders know how to use crypto cyber lingo
14:33 < adlai> unfortunately for everyone involved, laughter doesn't put exhalation on the table
15:00 < andytoshi> hm, as a security researcher it -should- make sense to sell some sort of insurance, priced based on audits like this. but even if the market valued security properly (it does not, when was the last time anyone lost money for losing millions of CC numbers, for example), it's not obvious to me that this insurance could _ever_ be sensibly priced
15:00 < andytoshi> because security is hard
15:01 < adlai> how long have we had CC trawls that caught millions of fishcount? actuarial data collection isn't hard, it's just slow and boring
15:02 < andytoshi> a while. i'm not sure we have quantifiable data on what actions various companies have done to prevent such things, and how those worked out in practice
15:03 < adlai> yeah the plastic money industry should die in a factory fire, but i'm unclear that either the cotton money or nickel-copper-cameldung money industries are any better.
15:04 < adlai> there is something to be said for teaching kids metallurgy again, though. fear of lead poisoning is much healthier than financial ignorance.
15:05 < andytoshi> the point i'm trying to make is that you can prevent everyone from running homebrew PHP blogs, and from deploying wireless tech with zero encryption, from running databases on the same server as your website, etc., but my guess would be that this isn't enough to make them insurable
15:05 < andytoshi> and the actual amount of work you'd need to make them insurable would be more than an insurance company could handle. it'd involve very in-depth audits of massive systems on many layers
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15:08 < adlai> it depends what kind of insurance you're trying to sell (or buy). a paranoid man and a rich man can usually agree on the meaning of a text, if they have enough priors in common.
15:09 < andytoshi> it'd be something like "if you lose massive amounts of CCs, or terrorists use your neurostim product as torture devices, the insurance co will cover the resulting lawsuits"
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15:34 < andytoshi> unrelatedly, TESS is launching is 20 minutes or so. nasa.gov/nasatv
15:44 < adlai> "It is expected to find more than 20,000 exoplanets"
15:44 < adlai> "The orbit is expected to remain stable for a minimum of 10 years"
15:45 < adlai> wikipedia is full of uninsured garbage...
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16:46 < kanzure> https://blog.ycombinator.com/lab-space-for-yc-bio-companies/
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18:18 < kanzure> http://clemonslab.caltech.edu/improve.html
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18:58 < justanotheruser> thought I'd check out what tangle (IOTA consensus mechanism was) "The coordinator is an entity controlled by the IOTA Foundation, which issues zero-valued transactions every two minutes, called a milestone. Using the coordinator, the definition of consensus is simple: any transaction referenced by a milestone is confirmed, and the others are not."
18:59 < kanzure> justanotheruser: https://medium.com/@neha/cryptographic-vulnerabilities-in-iota-9a6a9ddc4367
18:59 < kanzure> specifically https://github.com/mit-dci/tangled-curl/blob/master/vuln-iota.md
19:08 < justanotheruser> yeah, no idea why you would bake so much unnecessary complexity into such a delicate system
19:12 < kanzure> justanotheruser: perhaps another giveaway that this is stupid is that it's trinary
19:13 < justanotheruser> What's the solution to billions of dollars flowing into obviously bullshit tech?
19:14 < kanzure> market success or failure of projects is uncorrelated to actual technological reality
19:26 < justanotheruser> I don't think that's true
19:26 < justanotheruser> The correlation may be especially weak in some places
19:26 < justanotheruser> But as a general rule I think they're very correlated
19:39 < kanzure> i mean... how do you explain all the terrible things that have outsized valuations?
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20:05 < justanotheruser> not saying correlation is 1
20:25 < kanzure> .title https://github.com/kacperszurek/gpg_reaper
20:25 < yoleaux> GitHub - kacperszurek/gpg_reaper: GPG Reaper - Obtain/Steal/Restore GPG Private Keys from gpg-agent cache/memory
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--- Log closed Thu Apr 19 00:00:52 2018