--- Log opened Fri May 11 00:00:14 2018
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01:02 < adlai> kanzure: my sense of humor is still waking up, since i haven't had coffee yet this morning. does "military dogs" (in the context of The Church's startup) refer to Canis familiaris, Homo sapiens, or just anything that USSOC deems worthy of enhancement?
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05:25 < kanzure> adlai: i think the rule of thumb is currently "does it bark?"
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07:54 < JayDugger> adlai, military working animals.
07:55 < JayDugger> Mostly dogs for Army and Air Force.
07:57 < JayDugger> IIRC, pack animals got phased out after cavalry, after the second and first world wars, respectively.
07:58 < JayDugger> And yes, that means you could find gas masks for dogs and horses in WWI surplus.
07:59 < JayDugger> I don't know what the status of the US Navy marine mammal program was, nor much else about it. The Wikipedia article smells bad to me, but I really don't know.
08:00 < JayDugger> Given the long history of animals in warfare, it still surprises how little of the "are war robots ethical" crowd looks back to that as a precedent.
08:01 < JayDugger> And finally, why is a pack robot better than a pack mule?
08:01 < JayDugger> Give up? Because the pack robot comes with a warranty and the manufacturer answers its calls.
08:02 < JayDugger> (Yes, aside from all the other advantages.)
08:03 < JayDugger> (Such as you don't have to load it in the morning and unload it at night.)
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08:22 < TMA> JayDugger: history lessons are mainly usefull as stuff to be ignored -- because our ancestor were doing it wrong obviously
08:23 < TMA> JayDugger: I do not concur with that sentiment, there were pretty neat things and methods that were invented way before present
08:24 < JayDugger> TMA, which sentiment did you mean?
08:26 < kanzure> https://duo.com/labs/research/microcontroller-firmware-recovery-using-invasive-analysis
08:27 < JayDugger> kanzure, thank you for posting the link to the cell explorer.
08:30 < TMA> JayDugger: the "history is useless, let's ignore it" sentiment -- as shown by 'how little of the "are war robots ethical" crowd looks back to [animal use] as a precedent'
08:32 < JayDugger> Ah. I couldn't tell.
08:34 < JayDugger> Perhaps the analogy doesn't apply nearly so well as I imagine it does. It isn't as if remotely piloted vehicles or robots feel pain or fear or hunger or thirst.
08:43 < TMA> in a sense an autonomous robotic soldier is akin to autonomously operating guerilla militant -- the main problem is "do humans (as opposed to non-humans) have special entitlement to hurt/maim/kill other humans?" the answer is "oh, of course, hurting/maiming/killing is ok in that case" the subsidiary is "how effective we permit the humans be in hurting/maiming/killing?"
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08:46 < TMA> add the fact, that humans are generally unable to distinguish limited autonomy (say the amount of feedback-reaction-loop of a roomba) from full agency (a dog/human) or even between different levels of agency (dog/human)
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09:54 < maaku> JayDugger: we're wandering dangerously off-topic, but I wonder how deeply you've looked at whether robots feel pain, fear, hunger, thurst, etc.
09:56 < maaku> that's actually a strong claim, not the default outcome -- you're saying that whatever intrinsic-drive-signaling patterns exists inside our neural hardware DOES NOT exist anywhere in artificial networks
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09:58 < maaku> whereas AI is largely a bio-mimicry and emulative field that tries to copy human thinking modes. if you expect some feature of human thought to NOT exist in an AI somewhere, you better be explicitly exluding that from the design
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10:45 < JayDugger> maaku, I haven't looked. I have thought about the assumption I make. I think eventually we will have machines that do feel pain, fear, hunger, and thirst because AI depends on biomimicry. I do not think we yet have them.
10:47 < JayDugger> I might well have that wrong. A fuel level sensor that only drives a gauge doesn't experience thirst or hunger.
10:47 < JayDugger> A power-on self test with a failure doesn't experience pain.
10:49 < JayDugger> If those same sensors drive some artificial network, then maybe they do. I don't know enough to say at that point.
10:50 < JayDugger> I definitely do not mean this: "you're saying that whatever intrinsic-drive-signaling patterns exists inside our neural hardware DOES NOT exist anywhere in artificial networks." It's easy to see how what I typed would imply that.
10:54 < JayDugger> In order to credit a robot (as opposed to a remote control vehicle) with pain, hunger, fear, or thirst, I'd have to be shown and have explained to me where its artificial networks had a "drive-signaling pattern" that matched what "exists inside our neural hardware."
10:55 < JayDugger> That's probably an unreasonably and impractical standard. In actual practice, I'd probably use the duck test. If it waddles, quacks, swims, and flies like a duck then it's a duck.
10:58 < JayDugger> That has problems with anthropomorphism, but I think that would at least count as a better mistake than denying suffering.
10:58 < JayDugger> Did I address the point you wanted to make, or have I misunderstood it?
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15:42 < JayDugger> https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(18)30253-5
15:42 < nmz787> .title
15:43 < yoleaux> nmz787: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page.
15:48 < JayDugger> Early Time-Restricted Feeding Improves Insulin Sensitivity, Blood Pressure, and Oxidative Stress Even without Weight Loss in Men with Prediabetes
15:50 < JayDugger> 18-6 intermittent fasting, with the feeding window 08-14.
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16:30 < maaku> JayDugger: a self-driving car that encounters haphazard construction not on any maps probably feels frustration. a roomba (or maybe something slightly more advanced) that knows to plug itself in to charge probably feels hunger
16:31 < maaku> pain and fear is a bit mroe complex and I don't really know details enough to find an example, but I also woudn't bet against such examples existing
16:38 < nmz787> pain and fear seem like they're emergent responses
16:39 < nmz787> I doubt a roomba or other highly-deterministic (non-chaotic) system would have any feelings... unless it was also deemed undefined behavior, which is preventable to some degree depending on the language and verification techniques (formal verification)
16:40 < nmz787> I guess after enlightenment the buddha didn't feel pain, but was aware of the sensations nonetheless
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20:33 < kanzure> blort
20:39 < nmz787> zap
20:41 < nmz787> https://frinkiac.com/caption/S08E15/474590
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--- Log closed Sat May 12 00:00:14 2018