--- Log opened Tue Jun 26 00:00:57 2018 01:09 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:12 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@142-254-106-160.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:19 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:29 -!- bluebear_ [~dluhos@80.95.97.194] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:43 -!- Kacia [~kacia@95.87.234.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:43 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:24 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:05 < archels> "the library is written in C++, but we also provide a Python interface" 03:05 < archels> funny use of the word "but" there—almost apologetic 03:07 < TMA> they should apologize. for both choices :) 03:08 < archels> just reading up a bit. won't the next logical morphological step in human body evolution be bigger heads to accommodate bigger brains? 03:55 < kanzure> bigger brains not necessarily bigger good 03:56 < kanzure> nobody has figured that out yet and we should be angry at them 03:56 < kanzure> by which i mean, nobody has figured out superintelligence and we should be angry at them for wasting our time 04:02 -!- afterdark [5c6f7502@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.111.117.2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:03 < kanzure> afterdark: be greeted 04:07 < kanzure> https://www.coindesk.com/long-secret-bitcoin-key-finally-revealed/ 04:17 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/DrFloraPoste/status/1011230925269630977 04:17 < yoleaux> I wish I could get academic articles on audio, read by their authors. #academia (@DrFloraPoste) 04:17 < kanzure> this sounds like a bad idea (i want text) but might produce something lolworthy 04:27 -!- afterdark [5c6f7502@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.111.117.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:50 -!- TC [~talinck@cpe-174-97-113-184.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:51 -!- TC is now known as Guest42691 04:54 -!- hehelleshin [~talinck@cpe-174-97-113-184.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:57 < kanzure> all i really need is like, four million human femurs. it should be possible to buy a bankrupt graveyard of sufficient size right? 05:00 < solene> kanzure, I think you can find those bones here: http://www.verdun-douaumont.com/?lang=en 05:00 -!- jtimon [~quassel@40.28.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:02 -!- CandleGlow [~CandleGlo@unaffiliated/candleglow] has quit [Quit: ...and all my responses they stay the same.] 05:29 < kanzure> "Unfairly linear signatures" https://joinmarket.me/static/schnorrplus.pdf 05:38 < kanzure> .wik things hidden since the foundation of the world 05:38 < yoleaux> "Things Hidden Since the Foundation of the World (French: Des choses cachées depuis la fondation du monde) is a 1978 book by the philosopher of social science René Girard." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Things_Hidden_Since_the_Foundation_of_the_World 05:40 < kanzure> some weird thiel fansplaining stuff http://mimeticarbitrage.com/Value%20Mythology.pdf 05:41 < kanzure> https://medium.com/@snigirev.stepan/bls-signatures-better-than-schnorr-5a7fe30ea716 05:50 < kanzure> "Overexpression of BMP-2 and BMP-4 alters the size and shape of developing skeletal elements in the chick limb" http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Overexpression%20of%20BMP-2%20and%20BMP-4%20alters%20the%20size%20and%20shape%20of%20developing%20skeletal%20elements%20in%20the%20chick%20limb%20-%201996.pdf 05:51 < kanzure> "Fibroblast growth factors induce additional limb development from the flank of chick embryos" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0092867495903526 05:54 < kanzure> in this paper, a viral vector is mechanically delivered to a limb bud to inhibit limb development http://dev.biologists.org/content/develop/126/20/4465.full.pdf 05:58 < kanzure> limb transplantation in chicken embryo (1938) https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jez.1400770304 05:59 < kanzure> "Inductive activity and enduring cellular constitution of a supernumerary apical ectodermal ridge grafted to the limb bud of the chick embryo" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0012160676900634 05:59 < kanzure> 'induced supernumerary limb outgrowths' okay 06:02 < kanzure> "Interaction between limb bud ectoderm and mesoderm in the chick embryo. III. Experiments with polydactylous limbs" https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jez.1401320203 06:05 -!- AgenttiX [agenttix@lakka.kapsi.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:05 < kanzure> "BMPs negatively regulate structure and function of the limb apical ectodermal ridge" http://dev.biologists.org/content/develop/126/5/883.full.pdf 06:16 < JayDugger> I think you forgot the "very" in "some weird thiel fansplaining stuff http://mimeticarbitrage.com/Value%20Mythology.pdf" 06:18 < kanzure> yeah..... 06:18 < kanzure> i don't know what's going on there 06:22 < kanzure> porcine endogenous retroviruses not detected in non-human primates after pig organ xenotransplantation https://journals.lww.com/transplantjournal/Fulltext/2001/04150/LACK_OF_CROSS_SPECIES_TRANSMISSION_OF_PORCINE.22.aspx sowhy is egenesis bio focused on removing endogenous retroviruses from pig organs...? 06:27 < kanzure> hmm they have made mouse-chick embryos using xenografting of fetal cells 06:33 < kanzure> i wonder if chick embryos can survive head transplants 06:35 < JayDugger> Wasn't there a George Church video interview where he claimed PERV counted as the biggest obstacle to pig-to-human xenotransplants? 06:37 < kanzure> yes they seem to think it's important......? 06:39 < kanzure> "The effect of adult chicken organ grafts on the chick embryo" (1916) http://jem.rupress.org/content/jem/24/1/1.full.pdf 06:52 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@142-254-106-160.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:03 -!- dequ [christy@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:04 < fenn> i'm pretty confident that bigger brain means more intelligence 07:05 -!- dequ [christy@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:10 < kanzure> fenn: but elephants? 07:10 < fenn> no thumbs 07:10 < kanzure> nose tip was thumbular wasn't it? 07:10 < fenn> maybe i should say something about seven billion monkeys typing gibberish 07:11 < fenn> there aren't that many elephants or whales 07:11 < fenn> i do wonder why bears haven't taken over though 07:11 < kanzure> would you prefer big brain test first, or surface area increase test first? 07:11 < kanzure> cult of sulcri maximization or whatever 07:12 < kanzure> sulcri quantity maximization? sulcri depth maximization? i forget what we had looked at. it's in the logs somewhere. 07:12 < fenn> eh whatevs, it's primarily number of neurons and neural hierarchy depth 07:12 < fenn> sulci are just a happy accident 07:13 < kanzure> i'd recommend transplanting elephant embryo neural tube into a human fetus but i think it'd have developmenta problems due to hypothalamus and pituitary and elephant vs human brain-body hormone(etc) signalling/requirement differences... 07:14 < kanzure> and then your elephant would have its thumbs 07:14 < fenn> arent there easier ways to make a large brained monkey 07:15 < kanzure> i'm trying to think of the simplest test-- is it a monkey? or a parrot? 07:15 < kanzure> oh, parrot diet might not work for superbrain maintenance 07:15 < fenn> seems to work for parrots 07:16 < kanzure> okay so you want a lab chimp grown to have overexpression of neuronal progenitors and proliferation in general, or something more specific? 07:16 < fenn> that would be good enough to (dis)prove the general principle 07:16 < kanzure> would it tho? i mean it's trivial to argue "well you didn't overexpress only in the neocortex therefore..." 07:16 < fenn> but i'm more interested in practical things, taking over the galaxy etc 07:18 < kanzure> some of this is highly practical; look at the ridiculous things scientists in 1910-1940 did with chick embryos. 07:18 < fenn> is there a google translate for dolphin or elephant yet? 07:19 < kanzure> no they were too busy working on machine vision interpretation of koko sign language but she died the other day 07:19 < fenn> by practical i meant engineering a superintelligent primate of some sort 07:19 < kanzure> .wik koko (gorilla) 07:19 < yoleaux> "Hanabiko "Koko" (July 4, 1971 – June 19, 2018) was a female western lowland gorilla who was known for having learned a large number of hand signs from a modified version of American Sign Language (ASL)." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koko_(gorilla) 07:38 < kanzure> fenn: i think what will happen is that first human with big brain will also do lots of other stuff like overexpression of GRIN2B and some other genetic tweaks, and in total any exceptional ability will not be solely attributable to big brain :-/ 07:44 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=6d7c3591 Bryan Bishop: how about limb regeneration genetics? >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/genetic-modifications/ 07:45 < fenn> start with mice then 07:45 -!- strages [uid11297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pknudaeellyaolmf] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:45 < kanzure> i think they have definitely made mice with bigger brains 07:45 < kanzure> although i don't remember if they survived to term 07:45 < kanzure> lotta beta-caretin stuff 07:56 < kanzure> i've been wondering about chimeric humans-- like fetal neuronal grafting or something. 07:56 < kanzure> (chimeric with another parent) 07:57 < kanzure> i don't think potential parents want a /total/ fetal head transplant, you just want a mix-and-match or something 08:19 < kanzure> dunno if you can attribute a beautiful hippocampus to a replaceable clump of beautiful hippocampus progenitor cells 08:44 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:58 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:07 < bluebear_> not sure if this is of any interest in this case, but mice intelligence can be boosted by about 20% (ofc, hard to measure) by injecting progenitors of human glial cells 09:07 < bluebear_> into the mouse embryo 09:08 < kanzure> as measured by what? 09:08 < bluebear_> they will, suprisingly, connect and work like expected(?), but with better efficiency(?) 09:08 < bluebear_> I think the study used the classical maze and similar very mouse-like tests 09:08 < kanzure> yes that is of interest 09:09 < bluebear_> http://www.jneurosci.org/content/34/48/16153 09:09 < kanzure> .title 09:09 < yoleaux> A Competitive Advantage by Neonatally Engrafted Human Glial Progenitors Yields Mice Whose Brains Are Chimeric for Human Glia | Journal of Neuroscience 09:11 < kanzure> where are the maze results mentioned? 09:14 < bluebear_> "improved performance in a variety of learning tasks (Han et al., 2013)", where Han et al. is https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1934590913000076 09:16 < kanzure> .title 09:16 < yoleaux> Forebrain Engraftment by Human Glial Progenitor Cells Enhances Synaptic Plasticity and Learning in Adult Mice - ScienceDirect 09:17 < kanzure> thank you 09:20 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@124.183.192.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:20 < kanzure> need cell bank from different humans of these cells as options for insertion into developing human brains 09:20 < kanzure> or dogs 09:21 < bluebear_> :-) 09:23 < kanzure> that's actually better than my directed evolution of a microbial nootropic technique, except that it requires a developing embryo, but i mean at least it exists and has positive results 09:33 -!- poa [~igor@185.81.136.17] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:33 < poa> sup 09:36 < kanzure> poa: be greeted 09:46 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@2001:8003:1014:2500:8cf7:f8d7:83a:57] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:59 -!- yashgaroth [~yashgarot@2606:6000:c308:f700:69a5:5e2e:d00c:b67d] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:01 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@142-254-106-160.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:11 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@c-76-126-68-88.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:15 -!- bluebear_ [~dluhos@80.95.97.194] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:19 -!- poa [~igor@185.81.136.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:21 -!- poa [~igor@185.81.136.17] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:27 -!- poa [~igor@185.81.136.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:38 -!- poa [~igor@185.81.136.17] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:39 -!- vurtz [~vurtz@2a02:c7d:ba9:9b00:3d91:4b8f:f25:1c69] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:43 -!- poa [~igor@185.81.136.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:43 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@124.183.192.230] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:46 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@2001:8003:1014:2500:8cf7:f8d7:83a:57] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:51 -!- lewl [~lewl@2606:6000:6087:f00:4435:d905:3ad6:66c8] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:01 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@c-76-126-68-88.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:04 -!- poa [~igor@107.170.243.243] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:11 -!- poa [~igor@107.170.243.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:14 -!- Kacia [~kacia@95.87.234.241] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:29 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:33 -!- poa [~igor@185.81.136.17] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:38 -!- poa [~igor@185.81.136.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:48 -!- poa [~igor@185.81.136.17] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:51 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@173.195.78.226] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:53 -!- poa [~igor@185.81.136.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:23 -!- Gurkenglas [~Gurkengla@unaffiliated/gurkenglas] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:05 -!- lewl [~lewl@2606:6000:6087:f00:4435:d905:3ad6:66c8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:15 -!- sachy [~sachy@78.108.102.220] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:41 < kanzure> "The search for true numbers of neurons and glial cells in the human brain: a review of 150 years of cell counting" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5063692/ 14:44 < kanzure> "Neural anatomy of primary visual cortex limits visual working memory" https://academic.oup.com/cercor/article/26/1/43/2366285 14:44 < kanzure> "Smaller primary visual cortex is associated with stronger, but less precise mental imagery" https://academic.oup.com/cercor/article-abstract/26/9/3838/1753970 14:46 < kanzure> ".. Voxel‐based morphometry (VBM) analyses revealed dissociable neuroanatomical correlates of spatial versus object VSTM. Interindividual variability in spatial VSTM was reflected in the gray matter density of the inferior parietal lobule. In contrast, object VSTM was reflected in the gray matter density of the left insula." https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/hbm.23416 14:48 < kanzure> "Individuals with a bigger V1 tended to have greater visual working memory storage." 14:52 < kanzure> "Humanized neuronal chimeric mouse brain generated by neonatally engrafted human iPSC-derived primitive neural progenitor cells" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5111502/ 15:06 < kanzure> "A Wnt5a pathway underlies outgrowth of multiple structures in the vertebrate embryo" http://dev.biologists.org/content/develop/126/6/1211.full.pdf 15:06 -!- sachy [~sachy@78.108.102.220] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:07 -!- hehelleshin [~talinck@cpe-174-97-113-184.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:10 -!- Guest42691 [~talinck@cpe-174-97-113-184.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:20 -!- vurtz [~vurtz@2a02:c7d:ba9:9b00:3d91:4b8f:f25:1c69] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:24 -!- vurtz [~vurtz@2a02:c7d:ba9:9b00:3d91:4b8f:f25:1c69] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:33 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@173.195.78.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:41 -!- Gurkenglas [~Gurkengla@unaffiliated/gurkenglas] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:45 -!- poa [~igor@159.203.90.81] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:54 -!- CandleGlow [~CandleGlo@unaffiliated/candleglow] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:11 -!- poa [~igor@159.203.90.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:40 -!- lewl [~lewl@2606:6000:6087:f00:7093:f31f:f394:fc9b] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:41 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@173.195.78.226] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:43 -!- stussky [541027f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.16.39.246] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:43 < stussky> help 16:44 -!- stussky [541027f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.16.39.246] has quit [Client Quit] 17:01 -!- karkomah [~0x@a94-132-223-187.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:43 < kanzure> "Adult phenotype in the mouse can be affected by epigenetic events in the early embryo" http://dev.biologists.org/content/develop/119/3/933.full.pdf 18:17 -!- strages [uid11297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pknudaeellyaolmf] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 18:23 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@173.195.78.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:23 -!- lewl [~lewl@2606:6000:6087:f00:7093:f31f:f394:fc9b] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:23 < kanzure> "Human BMP sequences can confer normal dorsal-ventral patterning in the Drosophila embryo" http://www.pnas.org/content/90/7/2905.full.pdf 18:25 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@173.195.78.226] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:32 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@173.195.78.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:42 -!- lewl [~lewl@2606:6000:6087:f00:292d:444b:57a0:aacb] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:54 < nmz787> kanzure: well we've know epigenetics change phenotype in humans for a while, right? 18:59 -!- karkomah [~0x@a94-132-223-187.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:02 -!- vurtz [~vurtz@2a02:c7d:ba9:9b00:3d91:4b8f:f25:1c69] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:03 < kanzure> yes but we haven't literally made human clones with different initial cytoplasms 19:18 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@124.183.192.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:25 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@142-254-106-160.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:36 < nmz787> is there a site like lmgtfy for sci-hub? 19:41 < nmz787> https://www.nature.com/articles/nbt.4151 19:41 < nmz787> .title 19:41 < yoleaux> Precise, automated control of conditions for high-throughput growth of yeast and bacteria with eVOLVER | Nature Biotechnology 19:48 -!- srk [sorki@fedora/sorki] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:54 -!- srk [sorki@fedora/sorki] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:58 -!- lewl [~lewl@2606:6000:6087:f00:292d:444b:57a0:aacb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:58 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@142-254-106-160.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:15 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@142-254-106-160.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:00 -!- lewl [~lewl@cpe-76-169-182-1.socal.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:38 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:49 -!- lewl [~lewl@cpe-76-169-182-1.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50 -!- Hoolootwo is now known as Hooloovo0 22:01 -!- lewl [~lewl@2606:6000:6087:f00:a48b:9e64:2da3:52f0] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:02 -!- maaku [~maaku@173.234.25.100] has quit [Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in] 22:03 -!- maaku [~maaku@173.234.25.100] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:06 -!- jtimon [~quassel@40.28.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:06 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:20 -!- t4nk [t4nk@gateway/shell/panicbnc/x-lwwneyidfygrwmae] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:30 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:31 -!- yashgaroth [~yashgarot@2606:6000:c308:f700:69a5:5e2e:d00c:b67d] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:50 -!- t4nk [t4nk@gateway/shell/panicbnc/x-hlhnwlclnzjabuxr] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:50 -!- t4nk [t4nk@gateway/shell/panicbnc/x-hlhnwlclnzjabuxr] has quit [Changing host] 22:50 -!- t4nk [t4nk@unaffiliated/t4nk] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:50 -!- t4nk [t4nk@unaffiliated/t4nk] has quit [Changing host] 22:50 -!- t4nk [t4nk@gateway/shell/panicbnc/x-hlhnwlclnzjabuxr] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:05 -!- Gurkenglas [~Gurkengla@unaffiliated/gurkenglas] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:09 -!- lewl [~lewl@2606:6000:6087:f00:a48b:9e64:2da3:52f0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09 < fenn> "75% of IKEA's catalog photos are computer generated imagery" 23:20 < fenn> they really ought to just freely license their models so anyone can put IKEA furniture in their virtual scenes. free product placement advertising 23:31 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:38 -!- Gurkenglas [~Gurkengla@unaffiliated/gurkenglas] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:58 -!- CandleGlow [~CandleGlo@unaffiliated/candleglow] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] --- Log closed Wed Jun 27 00:00:58 2018