--- Log opened Mon Jul 30 00:00:15 2018
--- Day changed Mon Jul 30 2018
00:00 < nmz787> and send a little cash and some reading material to a local school or science center, hopefully
00:01 < nmz787> I see it as a sort of pluralism
00:06 < nmz787> .wik IBM 2321 Data Cell
00:06 < yoleaux> "The IBM 2321 Data Cell announced in April 1964 was a direct access storage device for the IBM System/360.  It could hold up to 400 million bytes of data, with an access time of 95 milliseconds to 600 milliseconds, depending on the addressed strip position and data arrangement in each data cell.." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_2321_Data_Cell
00:07 < nmz787> "The Data Cell made use of 3 concurrently operating separate seeking systems; a servo-hydraulic one to rotate the bins to select the proper subcell, and two solenoid driven ones; one to select the correct strip tab of the 10 in the subcell, and the other to select one of the 5 head positions, for the 20 element head (100 tracks per strip). The hydraulic fluid, Mobil DTE Light, a machine tool
00:07 < nmz787> circulating oil, was pressurized at 1500 psi and despite a lot of folklore about oil leaks, they were very rare. The oil sump held 5 US gallons (19 l)."
00:19 < winsoff> nmz787: respecting boundaries in the same way that a parent hovers over its children
00:20 < winsoff> the fact that you call the tortoise stupid demonstrates this
01:29 < nmz787> what do you mean calling it stupid demonstrates something about parenting?
01:29 < nmz787> err, respecting boundaries
01:30 < nmz787> it is objectively true that a desert tortoise won't cross a dirt road
01:31 < nmz787> if a water source is on the other side of said road, it's the humans fault, or the tortoise's lack of sense to cross anyway
01:31 < nmz787> we can change with some social discussion, the tortoises seem to be locked in genetically
01:49 < maaku> nmz787: I'd wager a guess that winsoff doesn't have children
01:49 < maaku> and this is a rather pointless debate
01:59 < winsoff> ah yes, people can only know about paternalization if they've BECOME the paternalist indeedst m'fellow
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03:51 < kanzure> winsoff: yes i type on qwerty only
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08:11 < fenn> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnrVV0w2jrE
08:11 < yoleaux> AI SpaceFactory - MARSHA - Our Vertical Martian Future - YouTube
08:11 < fenn> looks good for earth based living too. reminds me of the dymaxion house
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09:35 < fenn> do we know any developmental biologists? i suddenly find myself wanting to know about FOX/HOX and other growth directing genes and systems
09:36 < fenn> i want to do a growth/ontogeny simulation of humans and similar creatures, and i want it to be at least plausibly accurate
09:38 < fenn> i'd rather work on the simulator than spend my entire life reading about developmental genetics
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14:08 < maaku> winsoff: non-parents talking about parenting is a bit like virgins talking about sex, yes.
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14:09 < maaku> that's actually putting it mildly. people have a warped view of parenting because their opinion is based off memories formed while their brain was still developing and obscured by the fog of childhood
14:11 < maaku> so yeah, someone who is not a parent (or has not taken classes in early childhood development, not a teacher or other person who interacts with small children, etc.) is about as trustworthy as a heroin addict's memory of what happened while he was high 2 months ago
14:12 < maaku> (also amusing, all the AGI wannabe researchers who pontificate about how human-like entities learn and grow, while asserting status by being child-free by election)
14:15 < maaku> kanzure: have you looked into schemes like Colemak or Workman? In particular I wonder if the thing they optimize for is really correct
14:15 < maaku> e.g. Colemak tries to (1) alternate hands between keystrokes and (2) reduce finger movement, in that order
14:16 < fenn> "asserting status by being child-free" is that a thing?
14:16 < fenn> "asserting status by being car-free" is that a thing?
14:17 < maaku> fenn: I was thinking of people you live with, so maybe I'm wrong if you're confused.
14:17 < maaku> But in particular at a CFAR meetup there were people bragging about being child-free as part of their dedication to effective alturism
14:18 < maaku> I mean not explicitly saying that, but I could think of no reason in context for bringing it up except seeking status.
14:18 < fenn> i've literally heard people say something like "woah look at that family doing the right thing and having children even though it probably affects their career, how do i talk to them without sounding creepy"
14:18 < fenn> i dont remember exactly how it was phrased
14:18 < maaku> huh, interesting. that raises my opinion of your roommates then
14:19 < fenn> it's generally acknowledged that middle and upper class people don't have enough children
14:19 < fenn> some sort of idiocracy concern i guess
14:20 < andytoshi> there definitely exist large groups (esp yuppie-ish groups) in which being child-free is high status
14:20 < andytoshi> i also avoid such groups, though i'm impressed you managed to do so by accident
14:20 < fenn> it shouldn't be. having kids is expensive
14:20 < andytoshi> yes. post-2008 i think it's become more high-status because of that
14:21 < fenn> "it" meaning being child-free?
14:21 < andytoshi> no, having children
14:21 < maaku> having kids is not as expensive as college (unless you're doing it wrong)
14:21 < andytoshi> relatedly, i think pro-enviroment-anti-human attitudes have fallen out of vogue in the last decade or two
14:21 < fenn> i wouldn't know, i don't hang out with environmentalist radicals anymore
14:21 < andytoshi> well, actually, i would be unable to distinguish that change, it's probably just that i moved to TX
14:22 < maaku> kanzure: I am seriously interested in the colemak vs. workman vs. qwerty question if you have any insight. I'm considering switching. Everytime I do the analysis it makes sense, but I wonder if my "analysis" is right.
14:23 < andytoshi> is colemak the one that's mostly dvorak except that the symbols have been rearranged?
14:23 < fenn> maaku why not steno? (chording)
14:23 < fenn> order of magnitude better instead of a few percent
14:24 < maaku> andytoshi: colemak and dvorak don't look similar afaict
14:24 < maaku> fenn: because I need standard-layout physical keys for typing Chinese and Japanese
14:24 < maaku> (and also, laptop)
14:25 < fenn> hm i don't know anything about steno in chinese
14:25 < fenn> it may not even make sense
14:25 < maaku> oh, aparantly there's a "qwerty steno". i'll add that to the list
14:25 < fenn> you need a special keyboard usually
14:25 < fenn> n-key rollover
14:26 < fenn> plover is the software
14:26 < maaku> my main concerns are (1) carpal tunnel; and (2) time efficiency
14:26 < fenn> steno is better for both
14:26 < maaku> sure I'll look into it
14:27 < andytoshi> my experience with dvorak is that it significantly reduced the amount of total hand movement that i do
14:27 < andytoshi> (like in "total hand movement that i do" only l, m, v are off the home row)
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14:28 < andytoshi> i've never had carpal tunnel; on 2 or 3 occasions i had wrist pain which went away after a couple days of "no typing", but there are few enough of those that i can't say whether dvorak helped. only that it never happened post-dvorak
14:30 < fenn> maaku can i at least complain about how kids are sent to prison for the best part of the day until they're legally adults
14:31 < maaku> fenn: sure but it's probably OT here
14:31 < fenn> i realized earlier today that i don't like buses because i associate them with going to school
14:32 < maaku> fenn: you could have tested out of high school like I did
14:32 < fenn> i had some college offers but i was preoccupied with girl problems at the time
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14:33 < fenn> it was never really presented as an option to be honest
14:33 < maaku> andytoshi: the only advantage of dvorak I can find is that "it is not qwerty". most other layouts score better than dvorak, but not so much better as to justify you switching.. most of the gain was from leaving qwerty
14:34 < maaku> but then, I wonder about how simplistic these scoring metrics are.
14:34 < xeb> we could do randomised A/B testing on mechanical turk to find the OPTIMAL KEY PLACEMENT
14:34 < xeb> modulo sampling errors and also probably it would just go badly for reasons
14:35 < andytoshi> unfortunately it takes 3-4 weeks of sub-20-wpm typing to switch
14:35 < maaku> e.g. should movement of some fingers be preferable to others, because of layout of nerves and muscles in the hand and wrist? I don't know enough to know
14:35 < xeb> oh yeah, that being the main reasons
14:35 < xeb> derp
14:35 < xeb> there should be some correlation with nerve and brain loci
14:35 < xeb> but perhaps not a trivial one
14:36 < fenn> let's strap some radar to your wrists and see what movements cause the least stress
14:36 < fenn> i do like tactile feedback
14:37 < fenn> perky (chording keyboard) was made by a japanese person so presumably it makes sense to use a chording keyboard for kanji
14:39 < fenn> http://perky.la.coocan.jp/
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14:41 < fenn> looks pretty straightforward http://perky.la.coocan.jp/BHMoveKeys2.png
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15:01 < nmz787> fenn: well kids are only expensive if you consider the cost of medical visits/treatment here in the U.S., and are going to buy into things like private school, tutors, paid childcare, and saving for them for college
15:01 < nmz787> fenn: unless I am missing something
15:02 < nmz787> fenn: how do you think all the ultra-poor countries have booming populations? It isn't because having kids is inherently expensive.
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15:08 < winsoff> maaku: your reasoning is bereaved
15:09 < winsoff> the cult of experience is a cult of bias and the worship of the self--a self-righteous endeavor
15:10 < winsoff> as humans, we can all reason as one another can reason; we have the same tools
15:10 < fenn> nmz787: i doubt your yuppie friends would look highly on keeping feral children in the yard under a tarp
15:10 < Jenda`> nmz787: speaking for a middle-poor country :), here in .cz, kids are of course much cheaper in absolute value (because of public schools and mostly state-financed healthcare), but median wage here is $14k/y (~$11.5k after taxes), so it's not that good in relative value...
15:13 < Jenda`> I think raising a child here may cost about $50k
15:14 < fenn> nmz787: also there are things like mandatory child support payments that are a fixed percentage of your income
15:15 < fenn> 25% for one child is a number i see
15:15 < fenn> texas and alaska
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15:25 < fenn> i filled out this infurating web calculator with fake values and it seems that child support in oregon is about 10% plus health insurance
15:28 < fenn> more like 15%
15:29 < fenn> number of kids doesn't matter for some reason
15:36 < fenn> more like 30% for realistic values
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16:01 < maaku> I think nmz787's numbers are good, and align with my own experience
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16:02 < maaku> winsoff: reasoning is only as good as the data available. garbage in, garbage out
16:04 < fenn> maaku: which numbers?
16:05 < maaku> fenn: i seem to have hallucinated them
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17:58 < nmz787> fenn: while I do have a tarp out back... the kid is like 1 sq ft... he has plenty of space for himself in my 2k sq ft house
18:01 < nmz787> so far, if I consider the birth and everything before it medical cost for the mother only... the most I've spent and feel like I pretty wasted that $$ was at a pediatrician. They told me about 1 of the 5 opinions or hypotheses for any of our questions that I'd already read online in forums or in journal articles, govertment docs, etc. They only performed menial diagnostics that we can do at home,
18:01 < nmz787> limited to weighing, measuring length and head circumference
18:01 < nmz787> clothes, food, diapers... all very minimal... less than we probably spent eating out since he was born
18:02 < winsoff> fenn: all children live in prison
18:02 < winsoff> it's called "the home"
18:02 < nmz787> fenn: also, child support? I don't foresee that being part of my life, and in fact you should really consider he's a tax deduction now since we got him into Social Security
18:02 < nmz787> haha
18:03 < nmz787> prison, right
18:03 < nmz787> I'd call this the neverending summer camp experience
18:03 < winsoff> people in the 50s said women had it easy because they were separated from the horrors of the workplace
18:03 < winsoff> they were, just as children are now, imprisoned
18:04 < nmz787> not sure what you mean
18:04 < nmz787> my wife doesn't want to leave our kid to go back to work
18:04 < nmz787> that's a shitty and terible thing to do in our opinions
18:11 < nmz787> winsoff: also, you make it sounds like stay at home moms have kids who aren't "imprisoned" -- so my wife working from home... does that mean we're OK?
18:14 < nmz787> winsoff: also, shall I place my baby outside (he who can barely hold his own head up)? I don't want him imprisoned. I have a tent I can throw him in... but the raptors around here (we've got some big owls in my yard and immediate neighborhood) could likely tear through that pretty fast.
18:14 < nmz787> He is probably a bit cold here in the Air Conditioning... and usually does like it better outside when it's warm out, I think it's around 95 F now
18:23 < winsoff> "should I just fire all my employees? i bet they'd like that wouldn't they, communists?"
18:23 < winsoff> see how the logic doesn't really work out? yes, they would, if they were provided with the basics as a function of society, and not in return for bondage.
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18:29 < fenn> i was mostly talking about school and the general attitude of society that kids shouldn't be outdoors on a weekday
19:06 < nmz787> winsoff: you started the sentiments like that... you really haven't responded in any substantial way either
19:06 < nmz787> fenn: meh, screw those people
19:08 < nmz787> fenn: pretty much the only other friends I have that have kids around here homeschool all 3, and had unattended home births for all 3 as well... so my 'standards' or 'norms' are pretty skewed
19:10 < winsoff> nmz787: "no u"?
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19:37 < nmz787> winsoff: it would be more interesting if you participated in a productive conversation rather than just throwing out unsubstantive quips
19:37 < fenn> gentlemen, calm down and watch this video
19:37 < fenn> .title http://youtu.be/9HI8FerKr6Q
19:37 < yoleaux> a unified approach to grown structures - YouTube
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19:56 < justanotheruser> how do I get this paper without paying $4500 if sci-hub doesn't work https://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=US42959817
19:57 < fenn> let me guess it's an industry analysis
19:57 < justanotheruser> yes
19:58 < justanotheruser> I'm guessing students don't get access to this either?
19:58 < fenn> nope
19:58 < justanotheruser> or are there economics schools which do
19:58 < justanotheruser> ah ok
19:58 < ebowden> Paying money for industry analysis is always worth it! How could they charge so much if it wasn't?!
19:58 < ebowden> :D
19:58 < fenn> there's not really a warez scene for this sort of thing because so few people actually buy them, and the ones that do are businesses so nobody cares about the content
19:59 < justanotheruser> ebowden: it's worth it if I have a 9 figure portfolio :)
19:59 < fenn> usually it's just some basic statistics on public data
19:59 < ebowden> So even then, still not worth it.
20:00 < ebowden> If you have a 9 figure portfolio you could get something better.
20:00 < justanotheruser> yeah, I guess I would have an in-house analyst do it :p
20:01 < ebowden> I doubt you have a 9 figure portfolio.
20:01 < justanotheruser> yes, that's why I'm asking for free pdfs
20:01 < ebowden> *I doubt that you have a 9 figure portfolio.
20:01 < ebowden> Well, in that case you weren't missing much.
20:02 < justanotheruser> if I had a 9 figure portfolio I'd pay someone to ask you guys to get a free pdf for me :D
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23:01 < kanzure> maaku: 10% speedup isn't that important. just type really fucking fast on qwerty and you'll be fine.
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--- Log closed Tue Jul 31 00:00:26 2018