--- Log opened Mon Sep 03 00:00:19 2018
--- Day changed Mon Sep 03 2018
00:00 < ebowden> It probably wasn't a great one.
00:00 < ebowden> Oh.
00:01 < ebowden> Dev board.
00:01 < fenn> lol fltrz he describes your system at the end (it was written several years ago)
00:02 < fenn> oh this is RF not light
00:02 < fltrz> fenn, I read that decentralized time txt. it's an interesting idea, but in his proposal the peers free-run at night... if we are going to be OK with free-running half a day, we might as well just show the user a half-daily pop-up asking to confirm what weekday it is (i.e. Monday approximately 9 o clock local time, etc)
00:03 < fltrz> right its RF, also passive radar is not new
00:04 < fenn> "the reflected signals would almost
00:04 < fenn> certainly be too weak, and the measured distances too inaccurate"
00:04 < fltrz> it wouldn't surprise me if passive LIDAR already exists.. im merely proposing to evaluate passive solar LIDAR for astronomy given the boatloads of photodiodes for power generation
00:05 < fenn> i doubt the US government will be spoofing crypto-timekeeping by moving astronomical bodies around any time soon
00:05 < fenn> and if your node doesn't know what planet it's on, you've got bigger problems
00:06 < fltrz> fenn, I still don't see how it prevents false history attacks, but it does prevent against falsely lying timee has passed faster than it did
00:07 < fltrz> but simply asking the user for day of week and a (rough) estimate of the hour of day should be equally good using the computers realtime clock as oscillator
00:08 < fenn> i don't see the problem with using the moon as a night time reference
00:08 < fltrz> then peers don't need antenna setup
00:09 < fltrz> for the LIDAR ranging or for cryptocurrencies as described in the proposal you posted?
00:09 < fenn> both
00:09 < fltrz> of course half of the time the moon is on the day side...
00:13 < fltrz> for ranging it really is more desirable to have pyranomaters measure the direct sunlight on the dayside and share the stream over the internet, since then you can use full bandwidth (the moos was a lowpass filter of the sun, unless you use a telescope and a mask in the image plane to select a small patch of the moon)
00:14 < fenn> what is the downside for ranging with a lower bandwidth reference? isn't it just positional uncertainty of roughly lunar radius?
00:15 < fltrz> noise power, by losing the frequencies above 172Hz you are only using the solar fluctuations between 20Hz (ADC highpass filter) and 172Hz (moon lowpass filter)
00:17 < fltrz> i.e. the solar intensity can be viewed abstractly as a constant light source and a collection of sinusoidal oscillating light sources (going positive .. and negative!) of a spectrum of frequencies. any low pass filter effectively disables the light oscillation at higher frequencies, so while a correlation will still develop, it will develop much slower
00:17 < fltrz> its like having a dimmer sun
00:18 < fltrz> the larger the bandwidth the larger the total RMS solar noise (as long as the sun *has* noise in that each frequency band)
00:20 < mrdata> sun has mega noise; except when it's quiet
00:24 < fltrz> mrdata, I am trying to find pyranometer recordings. when you mention noise just now, do you mean strictly RF, or optical as well?
00:25 < mrdata> everything as far as i know
00:26 < mrdata> across the spectrum
00:26 < fltrz> I'm having a real hard time finding audiorate pyranometer recordings.. to the point that I will probably end up measuring it myself
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00:28 < fltrz> I was hoping to find a comprehensive survey of the intensity fluctuations  from 20Hz and up, perhaps there are well known processes causing peaks at specific bandwidths of intensity fluctuations
00:28 < fltrz> but I'm not finding it. only satellites measuring solar cycles, and pyranometer data at multisecond intervals...
00:30 < fltrz> then theres also the intensity interferometry for measuring star diameters IIRC
00:44 < mrdata> idk why
00:52 < mrdata> https://www.elsevier.com/books/solar-noise-storms/elgaroy/978-0-08-021039-1
00:52 < mrdata> i hate elsevier
00:52 < mrdata> but the contents of this book look interesting
00:59 < fltrz> thanks that looks like a real good reference, but it does read like RF noise co-occuring with optically resolved spatial structures. but it might contain information on optical noise as well
01:02 < mrdata> idk
01:03 < fltrz> another good test may be geostationary satellites, as the sun earth distance is relatively constant within a single night, and so is the earth-geostationary satellite distance, while the geostationary satellite sun distance is varying sinusoidally throughout a day
01:04 < fltrz> and I wouldnt need a much of a star tracker since it stays roughly in place
01:06 < fltrz> ok time to sleep
01:09 < fenn> i think pyranometers have an intrinsic time constant due to the thermal mass of their sensor disc
01:10 < fenn> also it takes time for heat to conduct through the disc to the sensor side
01:10 < fenn> or equilibrate if the disc itself is part of a circuit or something
01:11 < mrdata> if thats the case then theres no such thing as audio frequency pyranometer data
01:13 < mrdata> well, it's my bed time; nn
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01:42 < maaku> fltrz: a solar signal could be used to prevent pre-generation of future data
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01:44 < maaku> e.g. salt the proof of work hash with 128 bits of data extracted from the solar signal for the timestamp of the block
01:45 < maaku> it's essential that this 128 bits be a strong enough signal that any two observers from different vantage points, different observation tools would get the same bits
01:46 < maaku> and you'd need to solve the coordination problem of aligning windows, but that could be done with self-synchronization to whatever features present themselves in the data
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01:47 < maaku> and historical data is just plain trusted
01:48 < maaku> but essentially a solar telescope + CCD camera allows anyone to be sure that no one else is pre-generating work in advance of what the timestamp says, because they wouldn't know the correct random bits
01:49 < maaku> Now I haven't worked through how you might build higher level protocols out of this, like synchronizing an Earth chain and a Mars chain
01:49 < maaku> but it appears powerful enough a primitive to enable that
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04:42 < fenn> http://www.ldeming.com/longevityfaq/
04:43 < fenn> "95 things that make mice live longer"
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06:12 < fltrz> I meant photodiode based pyranometer data
06:15 < fltrz> their spectral properties are weaker but the thermopile ones are indeed to slow
07:03 < fltrz> but that may explain some lack of interest in higher frequency optical noise from the sun...
07:03 < fltrz> if you have the educational fetish to focus on the wavelength spectrum
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09:02 < fltrz> maaku, oh the attack model is withholding blocks "to keep the throne"? thats preventable by deterministic verifiable random functions VRF (again see Algorand)
09:04 < fltrz> what I don't understand about algorand is how they propose agreement on logical time (when do the lucky winners of sortition have their deadline for a round of communication?)
09:05 < fltrz> but given agreement on a clock their algorithm is flawless as far as I can tell
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10:20 < maaku> I guess we disagree on that. Algorand is claiming a perpetual motion machine from my perspective.
10:26 < fltrz> in which sense?
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10:46 < fltrz> maaku, could you clarify which part of Algorand you consider "overunity" ?
10:49 < maaku> algorand is proof of stake : see https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf
10:50 < maaku> proof of stake fundamentally reduces to proof of work, in trying alternate future histories where you retain signing control
10:51 < maaku> this is a general result. until someone shows why it doesn't apply to their PoS system, I don't pay attention. so far no one has
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11:06 < fltrz> maaku, you can only alternate future histories if you have some input over which to exercise control (nonces etc)
11:06 < fltrz> this is adressed in the Algorand whitepaper
11:08 < maaku> fltrz: so you wait until you have a block for which your sybils are the only signers
11:08 < fltrz> its also in one of the exercise slides for students on a github for a course by micali and colleagues
11:08 < maaku> then you grind forward from then
11:09 < fltrz> maaku, that duration does indeed exist and is computed to be on the order of current age of the universe (for a set of parameters)
11:09 < maaku> fltrz: that's the perpetual motion claim
11:09 < fltrz> I really encourage re-reading the whitepaper with an open mind
11:09 < maaku> no thanks i have better things to do with my time
11:10 < fltrz> I still don't see the circular reasoning
11:13 < fltrz> I only see a dependency on *logical* clock agreement (regardless of clock stability)
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11:22 < fltrz> the probability of the evil 1/3rd to occupy the complete size N quorum is 1/(3^N) selecting N say 200 means 200*ln(3)/ln(20=317 bits of security
11:24 < fltrz> and they can't bruteforce any degree of freedom to arrange to be re-selected since no malleable degree of freedom is provided
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11:51 < fltrz> maaku, this is the sentence that explains why its not a circular reasoning: "Let us finally bring up a last but important detail: a user i can be a potential leader (and thus *the* leader) of a round r only if he belonged to the system for at least k rounds. This guarantees the non-manipulatability of Qr and all future Q-quantities. In fact, one of the potential leaders will actually determine Qr ."
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12:41 < jrayhawk> http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/2018/09/02/aging-cell-and-tissue-repair-renewal-and-regeneration-inflammation-and-the-sasp/ a collection and discussion of recent OSKM-related anti-aging papers
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13:00 < katerino> Hello. I'm sad and bored and also an immortalist so maybe this is an okay place to hang out?
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13:09 < jrayhawk> Probably!
13:09 < katerino> Heh, okay.
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13:24 < katerino> I think in some sense transhumanism has been bad for me. Knowing how much better things could be makes me less happy with what I have now. Anyone else experience that?
13:26 < jrayhawk> I used to conflate suboptimal with bad, which produced that result. https://fairlystable.org/jrayhawk/notes/intellectual_maladaptation/
13:26 < jrayhawk> I am happy with anything that generates positive returns on my utility function these days.
13:26 < katerino> Huh.
13:27 < katerino> I think of it like, if the goodness level of the world is a negative number and you improve it by some amount but the result is still negative, I don't see much to celebrate.
13:27 < katerino> Tho I guess I'm like, not antinatalist, but antinatalist-adjacent?
13:28 < jrayhawk> Additionally, sometimes bad results are still optimal.
13:28 < katerino> Yeah, true.
13:28 < katerino> Tho that isn't helping the cause of natalism.
13:29 < katerino> slash optimism.
13:30 < katerino> I think of it like, if a stranger gives you ten dollars, you feel happy. Until they tell you that they flipped a coin to decide how much money to give you, and the other option was a million dollars. Then you feel upset.
13:43 < jrayhawk> unrelated, for everyone: a week and a half ago, my brain broke and only let me sleep 3 hours a night. I've pushed that up to 6 hours of sleep per night with melatonin/phosphatidylserine/GABA/l-theanine, but, AFAICT, my melatonin/blood sugar were not problematic to begin with. I already eat a very nutrient-concentrated, non-immunogenic and non-oxidatively stressful diet that's been otherwise
13:43 < jrayhawk> working great for 8 years. Does anyone have any other avenues to suggest?
14:02 < fltrz> sex or masturbation
14:11 < superkuh> Exercise.
14:11 < katerino> Blegh, but exercise is hard!
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14:32 < jrayhawk> I will attempt to implement those suggestions.
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16:07 < maaku> katerino: it's pointless to get mad at the universe
16:07 < katerino> Pointless, true. But hard to avoid.
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17:00 < fenn> jrayhawk: seth roberts has done a lot of research into daytime sleep interventions, for example standing on one leg until it hurts
17:00 < fenn> it was derived from his observation that he slept better after walking a LOT
17:22 < jrayhawk> Hmm. Not a bad idea.
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18:28 < kanzure> katerino: maybe if you were better you would be able to move transhumanism forward instead of wallowing in self-pity for having been born in ancient technological eras.
18:28 < kanzure> also, hi.
18:37 < katerino> Heh, hi, kanzure.
18:37 < katerino> And yeah, being better would be better.
18:39 < kanzure> katerino: what are yer skills
18:39 < katerino> Programming.
18:39 < kanzure> or is this "immortalist" in the sense of wishful thinking and not immortalist engineering
18:39 < kanzure> biological programming would be useful
18:39 < katerino> Heh, immortalist in the sense of thinking death is bad.
18:40 < kanzure> well it's not enough to say it's bad, you also have to go out and do things
18:40 < kanzure> read everything here yet? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/
18:40 < katerino> Yeah.
18:41 < katerino> Whoa, that's a lot of stuff.
18:42 < katerino> So uh, no.
18:43 < kanzure> k you're gonna die
18:43 < katerino> Haha
18:43 < katerino> Welp.
18:43 < katerino> I guess that settles it.
18:43 < kanzure> immortality is really hard
18:43 < kanzure> it will require actual effort
18:43 < katerino> I mean, yes?
18:44 < katerino> But it seems to me like cryonics is the best bet. Trying to reach escape velocity at this time is still too early I think.
18:44 < kanzure> maybe you have the wanting-and-doing akrasyia brokenness or something
18:44 < kanzure> wanting-and-doing discorrelative akrasyia
18:45 < katerino> Probably, yeah.
18:45 < kanzure> i hate that term; i hate lesswrong's community. it's awful.
18:45 < katerino> haha
18:45 < katerino> Why's that?
18:46 < kanzure> they don't do anything
18:46 < katerino> Heh.
18:46 < kanzure> they have been lulled into a local minima that doesn't involve doing any actual hard work
18:46 < kanzure> the important thing is to apply sustained attention and effort to hard problems
18:46 < kanzure> or, to pick simpler problems with better effort-reward ratios... but immortality is one of those asymptote rewards anyway.. so it sort of screws with that calculus..
18:46 < katerino> My impression is that the community is pretty darn diverse, with lots of people doing actual effort.
18:47 < kanzure> it's mostly fanfic and bayesian cultism
18:47 < katerino> Haha
18:47 < katerino> Well, there is lots of fanfic, that's true.
18:47 < katerino> People have been arguing about bayesianism from the beginning.
18:47 < kanzure> katerino: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/hplusroadmap/
18:48 < katerino> ?
18:48 < kanzure> just describing what this place is
18:48 < katerino> Ah.
18:50 < katerino> I mean, I think being more of a superhero is good, and cryonics is good, and deathism sucks. So I think I'm in the right place?
18:50 < kanzure> if you want to shortcut everything then focus on garage biohacking and gene editing
18:50 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/gene-editing/
18:50 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/genetic-modifications/
18:51 < kanzure> here is an overview of some projects and ideas from this channel http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/2017-02-03-beacon.pdf
18:53 < katerino> Hmm. I guess I'm skeptical of diy immortality projects.
18:54 < kanzure> i guess this overview may be of interest to you http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/The%20current%20state%20of%20the%20pursuit%20of%20biological%20immortality%20-%202018.pdf
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18:55 < katerino> Huh.
18:57 < katerino> Hmm. I have Opinions about that stuff. But at the moment I'm mostly interested in a space of non-deathists who are interested in being more effective in general.
18:57 < kanzure> i do have some notes about an alternative approach to cryonics in the slides i linked above
18:57 < katerino> Yeah?
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18:58 < katerino> I've heard of plastination versus vitrification as a debate people have had.
18:58 < katerino> More durable versus more information stored.
18:59 < kanzure> well look at the slide.
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18:59 < kanzure> instead of varying the cryopreservation protocol, you also need to geneitcally engineer the organism to survive cryopreservation
18:59 < katerino> Ah, I did see something about that.
19:00 < katerino> I think there are a lot of very different ideas about the most effective thing to do even when you filter for smart people who have their priorities straight.
19:00 < katerino> Like, which existential risk is more important or cryonics or doing anti-aging research directly &c.
19:01 < katerino> At the moment, getting more... career capital, I guess, is what I'm after in terms of short term actual goals.
19:01 < kanzure> learn yourself a react
19:02 < katerino> You mean the framework?
19:02 < kanzure> you said programming right..?
19:02 < katerino> Yes.
19:03 < katerino> I guess I'm aiming more towards prerequisites for even that. Productivity and mental health and akrasia stuff.
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19:14 < kanzure> katerino: that's a function of social group and who you hang out with
19:14 < kanzure> katerino: if you want to be hyper productive then you should hang out more with extremely productive individuals
19:15 < katerino> That's a good idea.
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19:22 < kanzure> can someone process this one https://www.ratical.org/co-globalize/mmGMhumans.html
19:22 < kanzure> i haven't done that yet
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20:07 < fenn> where do i find these extremely productive individuals
20:07 < fenn> and how do i get them to do my bidding
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20:12 < fenn> for one thing, this article was written in 2000
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20:17 < fenn> i want to know who were these advocates of germline engineering in the 1990s
20:20 < fenn> wow, apparently one germline engineering advocate mentioned in the article, william french anderson, was framed for sexual abuse and sent to prison for 12 years
20:24 < fenn> .title https://www.statnews.com/2018/07/23/w-french-anderson-father-of-gene-therapy/
20:24 < yoleaux> "Father of gene therapy" faces harsh reality: a tarnished legacy and an ankle monitor
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20:39 < fenn> he was working on SU-8/PDMS microfluidics for mRNA and genome prep
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21:00 < fenn> "In 2003, he and his colleagues discovered that IL-12 protected mice from what would otherwise be a lethal dose of radiation, including if given after exposure."
21:07 < fenn> "it may mitigate the bone marrow damage caused by acute ionizing radiation, while acting as a therapeutic that is capable of regeneration of multilineage hematopoiesis following lethal radiation"
21:08 < fenn> http://neumedicines.com/nmil12.php interleukin-12 therapy for acute radiation exposure
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21:13 < fenn> august 29 "The Trump administration wants to modernize the federal guidelines for companies that sell made-to-order DNA in hopes of keeping dangerous genetic material — like smallpox or the Ebola virus — out of the hands of malicious potential customers"
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21:35 < fenn> the ratical article is just a who's who of transhumanism in the year 2000 with the presumption of course that everything transhumanist is absolutely evil
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22:56 < fenn> maaku who was the guy who had proposed setting up a series of fuel depots 4 km/s apart?
--- Log closed Tue Sep 04 00:00:59 2018