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00:34 < fenn> i find this video oddly soothing
00:34 < fenn> .title http://youtu.be/AhLF1RzIWck
00:34 < yoleaux> TOKYO. #台風24号 Super Typhoon No.24 Trami 2018 at Shinjuku. #4K #台風 - YouTube
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00:55 < maaku> fenn: given I'll be staying a few stops on the subway from there in  about three days time... I find it very non-soothing
00:56 < mrdata> heh
00:56 < mrdata> the steady-cam helps a lot there
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03:39 < adlai> .to FourFire as a general heuristic, you want your fairness proof to be more difficult to simulate on a localized scale; with "proof of data ping pong", the scaling is opposite.
03:39 < yoleaux> adlai: I'll pass your message to FourFire.
03:42 < adlai> .to FourFire my hunch is that the best way to reward participation in meshnets is to have the meshnet be worth participating in... and perhaps to have nodes which you control that measure bandwidth in various routes, and reward helpful relays; but this is less of a "proof of network"; it's just sane network engineering.
03:42 < yoleaux> adlai: I'll pass your message to FourFire.
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04:28 < fltrz> adlai, perhaps treating transport of information like a postal service would reward participation, perhaps just per byte, or with deadlines etc... for stochastic payment check out https://people.csail.mit.edu/silvio/CommercialPapers/Fair%20Electronic%20Exchange.pdf
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07:20 < kanzure> https://medium.com/@magoo/learning-from-cryptocurrency-breaches-5493da06139c
08:04 < fenn> the steadycam was an olympus OM-D E-M10 mk2 on a zhiyun crane v2 gimbal
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08:14 < kanzure> "HK has a number of abandoned fabs built up to nineties technology level. They were once built by no name electronics companies in nineties, but they all went bust during the Asian crisis. And HK never managed to emerge as a player in semiconductors. HK government is facing a dilemma, they have to do something with them, but bulldozing a FAB, even a nineties era one, is not an option."
08:15 < kanzure> http://libresilicon.com/
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08:18 < fenn> they had me up until the blockchain tracking added value from every contributor
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08:35 < kanzure> oops
08:35 < kanzure> didn't realize this was rat poison, sorry y'all
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08:52 < kanzure> "An orbitally derived single-atom magnetic memory" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-06337-4
08:53 < kanzure> fatty acid synthase looks like a useful structure https://twitter.com/NatureComms/status/1045313136658731009
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12:30 < archels_> "free semiconductors for everyone" heh
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13:15 < archels_> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y7PLaxXUrs
13:15 < yoleaux> True Artificial Intelligence will change everything | Juergen Schmidhuber | TEDxLakeComo - YouTube
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13:20 < kanzure> netman87wy: be greeted
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13:37 < kanzure> .title https://sd2snes.de/blog/
13:37 < yoleaux> project sd2snes – …SD cards? In my SNES?
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13:56 < poppingtonic> hey is there a kaggle-like challenge for analyzing neuro/EEG data?
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15:03 < kanzure> who are these new users
15:03 < kanzure> oh, spammers
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15:40 < jrayhawk> Phil: Part of the inflammatory signaling program is diverting tryptophan from serotonin production (inflammation inhibitor, cognitive feedback inhibitor) over to kynurenine production (inflammation promotor), and, if the brain winds up having access to this (either due to blood-brain barrier permeability or due to direct macrophage activation within the brain for other reasons) you wind up with
15:40 < jrayhawk> quinolinic acid as an endpoint of the kynurenine pathway, which is a potent NMDA agonist and catabolic stressor.
15:41 < jrayhawk> NMDA activity being the primary means of neurochemically characterizing schizophrenia.
15:42 < Phil> interesting
15:42 < Phil> is kynurenine CNS-specific?
15:43 < Phil> we literally *just* learned about inflammation and i haven't heard of that pathway lol
15:45 < jrayhawk> It's a pretty deeply important one for psychological disorders; cognitive feedback is a big element in rage, anxiety, and depression. http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/11/going-loopy/
15:45 < jrayhawk> Re: CNS-specific: No, it's systemic. Most of quinolinic acid's interesting effects seem to be CNS-specific, though, based on the papers I've come across.
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15:48 < jrayhawk> Alessio Fasano had a neat RCT where he put schizophrenics with gliadin/transglutaminase antibodies on gluten-free diets; let me see if I can find that...
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15:52 < Phil> i mean it makes sense if quinolinic acid is an NMDA agonist that its primary effects be on the CNS
15:53 < jrayhawk> The neurotoxic effects could *potentially* be interesting elsewhere.
15:54 < jrayhawk> https://academic.oup.com/schizophreniabulletin/article/44/suppl_1/S190/4957532 ah, here it is
15:54 < Phil> also is serotonin pro-inflammatory in the gut, and anti-inflammatory in the brain?
15:56 < Phil> because i know in the gut it's kinda like histamine
15:58 < Phil> i'll be interested in the data that comes from their next trial
16:01 < Phil> i mean, it makes sense though...do you happen to know if ^ levels of gliadin ABs are the common distinguisher in what we call high inflammation schizos
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16:28 < jrayhawk> I suppose "immunomodulatory" is probably the correct term to use since the response differs wildly by whatever receptor type happens to be most expressed/sensitized in whatever organ system is involved. At the very least, 5-HT inhibits TNF-alpha and IL-6 production, the former of which increases blood-brain permeability and the latter of which permeates it regardless, and are both a big part of
16:29 < jrayhawk> many neuroinflammatory processes.
16:30 < jrayhawk> For instance, adipose tissue homeostasis is managed by hypothalamic leptin resistance induced by IL-6 and TNF-alpha, the cytokine theory of depression leans heavily on TNF-alpha and IL-6, etc.
16:36 < jrayhawk> re: gliadin: I doubt it. AGA IgG/IgA and AtTG antibodies shouldn't even happen in the absense of intestinal permeability, so the more interesting pathology is whatever products of partial proteolysis of gliadin happens to be hammering zonulin pathway receptors, which is probably not unique to gliadin.
16:38 < jrayhawk> For instance, other prolamines, agglutenins, glycoalkaloids, and casein are potentially involved, depending on what enzymes are doing the slicing and dicing.
16:45 < jrayhawk> gliadin just happens to be something the university of maryland has tens of millions of dollars worth of expertise in because coeliac is simultaneously a conveniently obvious disease model and also relatively easy to get funding for
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16:57 < Phil> hmm ok
16:58 < Phil> thanks :)
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17:25 < fltrz> can a reliable meat space protocol be designed for sharing sci-hub on HDDs? i.e. person who has copy buries HDD's at GPS coordinates, then shares coordinates with pseudonyms with reputation, i.e. to limit risk for the HDD 'seeder'?
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17:41 < kanzure> no because that would require someone to have the initial data, which we don't
17:50 < jrayhawk> if you find someone confirmed to be willing and able to give us that data, let us know
17:51 < jrayhawk> the most general answer to your question is probably git-annex
17:51 < streety> Do we have a firm idea of the total size at this point?
17:54 < kanzure> ~50 TB
17:56 < fltrz> kanzure, right, but I'm assuming a bootstrapped state, can we devise a secure protocol? then those few entities that do have a copy and are willing to share it in a safer way could do so
17:57 < fltrz> kanzure, ive seen 6 month old quote that its about 60TB, and I seem to remember it was even larger last time I added all the sizes in the SQL dump
17:57 < fltrz> I can report back in a few days when I reimplement the SQL stuff
17:59 < streety> That's not too crazy. The totals from the sql would be interesting.
17:59 < fltrz> I'm pretty sure the size could easily be reduced in multiple ways, stripping redundant fonts like you suggested, I also noticed theres a few books miscategorized, or a whole issue instead of just the 3 pages of a paper etc
18:00 < streety> There is also being selective in what you take. Not all articles are created equal.
18:01 < streety> Useful for bootstrapping at least
18:01 < fltrz> there was a SIGGRAPH book, it had a DOI and it was basically just pretty renderings in a kind of art book,.. understandably it ended up there with it's DOI, probably someone requested it through sci hub
18:03 < fltrz> streety, that too, before my previous laptop crashed I was working on sorting them by filesize, and by (filesize/page).. the first would give the max number of articles for a given medium size, the second the max number of pages (but integral articles)
18:04 < fltrz> I think nobody wants to get stung handing over 60TB to an untrusted party... hence the GPS coordinate strategy
18:04 < streety> I was thinking more taking an initial seed set, then all the articles they reference, and so on
18:04 < streety> for instance, the recent wikipedia dump
18:04 < fltrz> but there's still the problem of sting people pretending to have a full take, and giving you coordinates and waiting there for you
18:05 < jrayhawk> Difficult to prove damages on *attempted* copyright infringement.
18:05 < fltrz> streety, I'd prefer to copy on HDD, it's about 1500 euro with external HDD from the local computer shop here
18:06 < fltrz> jrayhawk, I don't care, Aaron Swartz was basically loaning books in large quantities
18:07 < streety> sneakernet is definitely attractive for so much data
18:07 < jrayhawk> Even a crappy 100mbit connection can do 1TiB/day
18:09 < jrayhawk> Many municipalities are doing residential gigabit these days.
18:09 < fltrz> also, I think it is safer if I don't get involved in sourcing my own copy until I have at least made the "list bloat" pdf analyzer, giving suggestions like figure 4 is raster, but looks like a plot (from color histogram), and appears to be computer generated and not scanned (pixel perfect verticals and horizontals)
18:10 < fltrz> by 2020 we might have plan S, and then I will just hoard the legally available ones, and perfect the tool on those
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18:11 < streety> Download speed is potentially going to be reduced if you are using a vps for additional privacy
18:12 < fltrz> based on image type (a photograph, a diagram, a plot, ...) we can probably build statistics for reasonable bits/area for each type, and suggest the user of ls-bloat what deserves fixing first (within a pdf, or across a library of pdfs))
18:12 < fltrz> I wouldn't be surprised at all if we can bring it down to 1TB
18:14 < fltrz> once the tool works decently in pointing out what should be fixed, we can publish the tool, which is then usable as a general bloat-alert for authors before sending to publishers, or for publishers to complain with author to please pass the flow chart as a vector image and not a raster image... or for sci-hub operators to shrink their DB
18:16 < fltrz> so for risk mitigation, one could have the pseudonym bury progressively larger caches, similar to cross chain exchange protocols
18:17 < fltrz> i.e. first time a new pseudonym wishes to receive coin for stash he buries a small USB key, the person who collects it can grade the pseudonym
18:17 < fltrz> if he gets stung by waiting police it was just 1GB...
18:17 < fltrz> as a pseudonyms reputation rises he can bury larger and larger stashes
18:17 < fltrz> earning bigger rewards
18:18 < fltrz> designing the protocol is not illegal
18:19 < fltrz> the requester passes the list of hashes of the requested files
18:20 < fltrz> is there really a seeding problem, or is it a jurisdiction problem (blocking specific torrents)?
18:21 < streety> I think the issue is seeding
18:21 < fltrz> monetizing would be a solution
18:21 < fltrz> it's weird, it seems like would be high profit endeavor
18:22 < fltrz> turning HDDs into gold
18:22 < streety> I'm not sure publishers would care all that much. No doubt it depends on the journal but I've repeatedly had issues getting editors/publishers to care about sensibly handling images
18:23 < fltrz> streety, when they print to plate they don't care at all, and they might even prefer it bloated since no one would want to have x50 bloat copy
18:23 < fltrz> of the full collection
18:23 < streety> To the point that noticeable pixelation could be seen in the diagram that was used for a front cover despite our repeated attempts to fix
18:23 < fltrz> 60TB does not really fit on single HDD for average user
18:24 < fltrz> streety, I'm not claiming they care, I'm claiming they should care
18:24 < streety> If you really wanted to avoid meeting you could hand off HDDs by drone
18:24 < streety> fair enough
18:24 < streety> but improved software alone will not be enough in most cases
18:25 < fltrz> theres also a lot of papers which were scanned relatively early in the history of digitization, and they're practically unreadable, sometimes you have to guess subscripts and superscripts in equations etc
18:26 < fltrz> and then the raster images need you to select the magic magnification so you don't see annoying second time pixelization
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18:28 < fltrz> I don't think the publishers are oblivious to the fact that efficient representation increases the speed of full take piracy spreading
18:28 < fltrz> i.e. they might encourage large and sloppy files, hiding behind "modern computing power"
18:31 < streety> It's interesting in that context that pubmed central makes available xml and txt files for some articles
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18:38 < fltrz> are they required to do so for accessibility (blind people etc)?
18:40 < streety> I don't know, it may be intended for machine readability
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18:44 < fltrz> suppose the protocol allows you to sell larger and larger copies by doubling after a successful sale, and after selling a 1GB stick, you bought and dug up a 2GB stick, you can now sell a 2GB stick, basically you recover your money by copying and then selling the same stick (which you bury at a new location)
18:44 < fltrz> if you buy extra sticks and fill them you can make profit
18:46 < fltrz> if the first step is 1GB, then 50TB would be about 16 doublings
18:47 < fltrz> while burying is relatively risk free since enforcement has a hard time predicting when and where you will bury (assuming that level of tracking would be costly)
18:48 < fltrz> so the emphasis of the protocol should be on protecting the buyer
18:50 < fltrz> when buying but before digging up, the protocol requires you to set a canary, whose hash you submit to the network, if you "survive" and confirm you received the files you publish the secret canary and the rest can check and increase the suppliers reputation, if you get stung you refuse to share the secret canary with the authorities
18:50 < fltrz> this way authorities are stuck at reputation 0 or 1
18:51 < fltrz> lol basically designing whistleblower mass exfiltration protocol
18:52 < fltrz> so with 16 times digging up copying and then reburying you have the full take
18:53 < fltrz> and if you are unlucky with first supplier you have only 1GB of contrabrand
18:53 < fltrz> one could send an unknowing person, perhaps geocachers
18:54 < fltrz> possibly geocachers *are* unwitting exfil agents
18:54 < streety> an attacker could deliberately play along at the lower levels to build up trust and snag a bigger fish
18:55 < streety> a buyer could also be pressured to act as though everything went well
18:55 < fltrz> right, but only 1 big fish, and creating multiple fish along the way
18:56 < streety> Well how many big fish are there likely to be within an area people would be willing to travel?
18:57 < fltrz> streety, so it should have a deniable facet to it, i.e. a way such that authorities can not confirm if the canary is correct, not sure how to ensure that
18:57 < fltrz> surely this problem has been studied before?
18:59 < fltrz> streety, a big (or just marginally bigger than you the buyer) fish has an incentive to make multiple copies and bury them in different cities
19:02 < fltrz> a bigger problem is authorities pumping their reputation by buying from themselves, so we need sortition
19:03 < fltrz> hmm the protocol is full of holes, authorities can order from people and then falsely report them as unreliable/sting
19:03 < streety> It seems like a big mess and overly expensive. To be profitable to the seller the buyer needs to cover their travel expenses
19:04 < streety> Compare that to the cost of buying a fairly anonymous seedbox, then encrypting, sending to amazon or microsoft and having them ship out a physical HDD
19:05 < fltrz> but that assumes there is no seeding issue? I simply don't trust anonymity across the web
19:05 < fltrz> especially not when renting
19:06 < fltrz> do they tolerate shipping encrypted data?
19:07 < fltrz> i.e. where *you* encrypted and they never took a peek at the clear
19:07 < streety> I think they encrypt it by default but I would imagine the majority also apply their own encryption
19:07 < fltrz> I most people have the provider encrypt it for them
19:08 < fltrz> I think*
19:08 < fltrz> and they simply work in the clear on the provider box
19:08 < streety> Your protocol might work with shared secrets. You get the drive before having all the parts of the key to decrypt and need to check in with someone you trust
19:09 < streety> I guess you have to trust the host to a certain extent.
19:09 < streety> I doubt they would be surprised by encrypted data though, even if they did check
19:10 < fltrz> how would my protocol work with threshold crypto? so I ask the seller to encrypt in N secret shares?
19:14 < fltrz> I have the feeling this is probably a well studied problem, but I fail to find the right keywords
19:15 < fltrz> cryptography, exfiltration, sneakernet, GPS, geocaching
19:18 < fltrz> another issue is that enforcement can faithfully rise the ladder a couple of steps, and then bury a drive with a GPS logger, so whenever people take the drive home to copy, their location/wifi SSID is logged, so you have to copy the drive at starbucks
19:19 < fltrz> or else they just let the drive circulate and after a while recover and they have a list of accomplices
19:22 < streety> or keep the drive in a faraday cage
19:22 < fltrz> yeah, but everyone must do it for the protocol to work reliably, otherwise there will be no others to share their data with you
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19:26 < fltrz> when not buying extra storage to sell on, the price (after deducing the sale of the same drive afterwards) would be between 16 and 32 times the price a seller would ask to go and bury/stash a drive
19:27 < fltrz> 32 if the sellers are only passing on just like you (because then they have to both dig up and bury) and closer to 16 if they make copies for profit (since they can amortize the 16 times digging up over many times of hiding a drive)
19:28 < fltrz> the library of alexandria protocol
19:35 < fltrz> suppose you are pressured into releasing your canary, instead of doing that you can claim you were an errand boy
19:36 < fltrz> some people go pick up the drives themselves, others use an errand boy
19:36 < fltrz> how does law enforcement prove you are the ultimate recipient?
19:38 < fltrz> that still leaves the problem of authorities pumping their reputation by ordering from themselves (but then we use sortition), and authorities destroying reputation of trustworthy suppliers (unsolved)
19:40 < fltrz> not sure how comfortable people will be in maintaining they were an errand boy
19:42 < fltrz> perhaps use a shield of innocent/bored citizens in an Alternate Reality Game... (pick up the time machine design files at X, and place them at Y)
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19:43 < fltrz> it's really absurd we are expected to feel like criminals for insisting we get access to taxpayer funded science articles...
19:44 < fltrz> has a flavor of Fahrenheit 451 to it
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19:48  * fltrz gives up again
21:07 < fenn> "only a gigabyte" of papers would cost $10k at the individual paper price
21:08 < fenn> this could be further construed as attempt to redistribute, so multiply that by an unreasonable factor to reach the damages claim
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--- Log closed Tue Oct 02 00:00:25 2018