--- Log opened Tue Oct 02 00:00:25 2018
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05:51 < archels_> hmm, Jeff Hawkins will speak at the HBP Open Day in a few weeks
05:52 < archels_> anything I should ask him?
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06:11 < fenn> ask why numenta hasn't accomplished anything in 10 years
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06:48 < fltrz> fenn, right, but at least you weren't caught buying 50TB, you can start the protocol at a lower value too. Not sure how intent to distribute is proven, someone who just wishes to own a copy may not have the time to go around buying, copying and burying fresh drives
06:56 < fltrz> do strictly chinese articles appear on sci hub?
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07:10 < fltrz> or soviet era russian ones?
07:14 < fltrz> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_Soviet_Union
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07:34 < nsh> kanzure, i need a more efficient way to absorb ideas than reading linear english/maths
07:34 < nsh> et al
07:34 < nsh> has anyone cracked this yet?
07:34 < nsh> considering subliminal bombardment vectors
07:35 < nsh> ie somehow encode ideas from books into tactile, audio & visual senses then immerse in them while doing other things
07:35 < nsh> it might also be possible to multiplex attention when in certain states of (non)consciousness
07:36 < nsh> kinda happens sometimes on dissociative drugs but the downside is probably lack of integration in apprehension
07:36 < nsh> though maybe that still occurs in batch postprocessing of neuronal patternings during deep sleep phases
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08:49 < fltrz> nsh, I am very interested in such things, and have been thinking about them for a long time
08:53 < nsh> cool
09:00 < fltrz> nsh, are you looking for a ready tool, or for ideas on the desirable requirements for such a hypothetical tool?
09:01 < fltrz> I don't know any such tool that exists, but I have many ideas on what it should satisfy
09:04 < fltrz> when you say "linear english/maths" I think you have already realized the most important part: that abstract knowledge/sentences are intrinsically multiply connected, i.e. graphs, and when an author wishes to share his knowledge with an audience he traverses his knowledge graph, thus linearizing it, and all the readers parse this linearization in order to recover the graph
09:05 < fltrz> currently we are doing calligraphy on computers, we don't have the computer parse the linearization for us, and this is still redundant work every reader of a text reproduces in his mind
09:06 < fltrz> we also want however the computer renders the graph as we explore it, that this rendering is least taxing on our attention
09:06 < fltrz> so we want to use pre-attentive effects of visual processing
09:07 < fltrz> the field of optical illusions actually studies many pre-attentive effects, i.e. a structure or interpretation feels automatic and even non-voluntary: we have to expand huge attentive effort to override this interpretation
09:09 < nsh> excellent
09:10 < fltrz> for example suppose we have a couple of nodes/pictograms in a graph and they need to be connected with edges, we could literally draw edges consuming pixel space and/or we could have them exploit an optical illusion:
09:10 < nsh> so i definitely feel an interface which can inform a rendering process using preattentional input from a brain interface or even extra-occular micromuscular data if there's enough resolution
09:10 < nsh> will go a long way
09:10 < nsh> a lot hinges on subitaization and subconscious grouping
09:10 < nsh> hmm
09:11 < nsh> not sure if i follow how the optical illusion replaces a drawing operation
09:11 < nsh> although i suppose you can do neat stuff with virtual light sources and shade relativism illusions to change groupings
09:12 < nsh> in a continuous manner
09:12 < nsh> (to avoid attentional cost(
09:12 < nsh> )
09:13 < fltrz> I'm having a hard time finding it back on wikipedia, give me a few minutes
09:14 < nsh> np
09:15 < fenn> http://www.mada.org.il/brain/images/illusions/kanitza.gif
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09:19 < fltrz> well its also gestalt, but let me find it back because the effect is even less taxing
09:19 < fltrz> someone f'ed up wikipedia
09:20 < mrdata> trolls?
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09:24 < fltrz> no, I think it's anal retentive psychologists insisting something is or is not an illusion etc
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09:34 < fltrz> it seems to be deleted from internet, or just from wikipedia and google dumb AI at the same time
09:36 < fltrz> for fucks sake, now even DDG is giving me results related to *previous* queries (I happened to be looking up APK pure). I didn't know DDG is going stateful
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09:45 < mrdata> fltrz, what is the goal here?
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09:46 < fltrz> it's an illusion which shows how to "connect" related objects on distant parts of an image without actually drawing edges
09:49 < fltrz> it may just be psychophysics instead of an illusion proper, and I think it's still on wikipedia, but some anal retentive douche practically orphaned it by removing it from "list of optical illusions"
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09:51 < mrdata> http://blog.visme.co/best-optical-illusions/
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09:53 < mrdata> fltrz, so the image you showed is Kanizsa’s triangle
09:54 < mrdata> err, fenn showed
09:54 < mrdata> is that it?
09:55 < mrdata> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_contours
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09:57 < fltrz> its not that one
09:57 < mrdata> do you recall its name
09:57 < fltrz> I can't say too much without revealing the surprise
09:58 < fltrz> if I recalled the name I wouldnt have a hard time finding it :(
09:58 < mrdata> can you draw it
09:58 < fltrz> I've actually considered trying to reproduce it...
09:58 < fltrz> but its a bit of work
09:59 < fltrz> I will continue my argument as soon as I find it
10:11 < fltrz> is there IRC channel with people related to op art and optical illusions?
10:16 < fltrz> I'm going to shoot some emails to some of the illusion tour web site people
10:21 < fltrz> found it, give me some minutes to find the best version
10:25 < fltrz> its this illusion but it requires java applet, http://psylux.psych.tu-dresden.de/i1/kaw/diverses%20Material/www.illusionworks.com/html/hidden_bird.html
10:25 < fltrz> it used to have a static and gif animation on wikipedia
10:26 < fltrz> when the blobs are static you just see random blobs, but when the blobs that form a bird are allowed to move, they are instantly associated
10:27 < fltrz> it does not require attention, just like in nature you should be able to see through twigs and branches, having correlated motion instantly cues the visual system that they are connected
10:29 < fltrz> so when a computer tries to convey a graph of pictograms to the user, it could generate motion for each one such that connected ones have a correlation, and unconnected ones have no correlation, the function could be position, or intensity fluctuations, ...
10:30 < fltrz> i.e. if sentences are stored in structured form, then we can lift the burden of parsing from the user
10:31 < fltrz> for the pictograms (which could be static images or fixed animations, or procedural animations) there has been some non-rigorous work in the field of avatar generators
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10:43  * mrdata doesnt have java
10:46 < mrdata> this? http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/cog-hiddenBird/index.html
10:47 < mrdata> this isnt an illusion, though
10:47 < mrdata> but it does express properties of the visual system
10:48 < mrdata> things that move are much easier to see than things that dont move
11:01 < fltrz> I fully understand why people would not classify it as an illusion
11:03 < fltrz> but it's undeniable that if you present people with the static image that they would respond negative to "containts a bird", but as soon as the elements that form a bird are allowed to move even slowly that they would respond affirmative
11:04 < fltrz> a lot of illusions require some ground truth, for example the grey value of 2 squares where one is in a shadow of an object... anyone would say the tile has the same grey value (i.e. same reflectivity coefficient), but the pixel has a different gray value due unequal lighting
11:05 < fltrz> so many of the illusions can be justified under a different interpretation
11:05 < fltrz> ambiguous questions have ambiguous answers
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11:07 < fltrz> (incidentally, its why I don't like attempts defining optical illusion; I'd prefer if they simply described hypothesized steps and processes of cognition, such as: all visual elements reside in some high dimensional space, and they are clustered not just by position and color, but also by their variations over time etc)
11:07 < fltrz> so gestalt psychology operates on a much more complex space than mere position and direction
11:14 < fltrz> so in order to get the best "conveyor" of graphs, we need a simple ABX test, where 2 graphs are rendered (potentially with motion and flicker etc): A on the left, B on the right, and then graph X is identical to A or B but rendered in different layout, and the user needs to determine if X=A or X=B (perhaps with a time limit)
11:14 < fltrz> and then multiple groups can advocate graph rendering "conveyors", and the one that is easiest for humans to discriminate in some sense is superior in that sense
11:15 < fltrz> an alternative is equality test, where you see 2 graphs side by side, possibly identical
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12:34 < fltrz> nsh, since we have both a visualizer/browser problem and a content problem, I think it would be best to start with formally defined content, for example a graph-based or DAG renderer for MetaMath
12:35 < fltrz> then we can ignore content, and focus on rendering mathematical sentences as graphs
12:36 < fltrz> incidentally, in art and interactive media there are many people who can "code" in PureData (which is otherwise a horrible way to code general purpose software). but it does show that graphical dataflow can be very intuitive...
12:36 < nsh> sounds good
12:37 < nsh> graph equality is easy if you have a canonical representation, but graph isomorphism is only maybe just about solved
12:37 < fltrz> if a "puredata" for MetaMath was made, I predict many artists and philosophers to start formally defining daily life concepts (which usually irritates us) in a unified framework, instead of each in their own paper or esoteric book
12:38 < nsh> yeah i've wanted for a while that all papers should link from a consensuated and curated set of concepts and platonic objects
12:38 < nsh> but everyone's given on semantifying anything
12:38 < fltrz> nsh well, for labeled graphs isomorphism is quite easy
12:38 < nsh> except to let inscrutable/opaque ML do it implicitly
12:38  * nsh nods
12:39 < nsh> but now there's money and an industry in science citation graph mining and fast literature parsing/filtering
12:39 < fltrz> nsh perhaps we should make the MetaMath visualizer
12:39 < nsh>  maybe there's some funding in actually getting properly semantic links between papers as an overlay
12:39 < nsh> sure
12:40 < fltrz> my biggest problems with most of ontology and topic map etc crowd, is that they don't use formal definitions of what the graph means
12:40 < fltrz> i.e. in math I can state "for all x there exists y such that ..."
12:41 < fltrz> but the graph people tend to just associate and pretend its all a solved problem
12:41 < nsh> hmm
12:41 < fltrz> consider the object subject predicate triples, ... what does it even mean?
12:42 < fltrz> sun color yellow.... what is the subject, sun? i.e. "sun is colored yellow" or yellow? i.e. "yellow is the color of the sun"?
12:43 < fltrz> I came to the conclusion that fundamentally there is like quadruples: player, role, relationship, truthvalue...
12:44 < fltrz> it seems like we have triples, because most of the time we are not using negations and the truthvalue = true is implied
12:47 < fltrz> example of player/role/relationship aspect: "Paul is the father of John" reify Paul (P), John (J), father (F), child (C), fatherhood (H):
12:47 < fltrz> in format <player, role, relationship> and tv's = true implied we get
12:49 < fltrz> <P,F,H1>,<J,C,H1> where H1 was actually an instance of fatherhood
12:49 < fltrz> but after reimplementing MetaMath verifier to make sure I understood its operation, I come to conclusion that DAG's are sufficient
12:51 < fltrz> it's also the major reason why I want scihub to be public domain, because I'm confident I can design an incentive structure to reward machine readable formalization of scientific knowledge
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13:36 < nsh> you can't bake in rules, i've decided. they have to be organic and emergent through usage
13:37 < nsh> no a priori ontologies or (meta)grammar
13:37 < nsh> assuming this can be done has held up things for centuries already, imho; i'm not keen on giving it another go
13:37 < nsh> otoh, maths is ripe for formalisation: https://xenaproject.wordpress.com/2018/09/22/formalising-mathematics-a-mathematicians-personal-viewpoint/
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14:09 < fltrz> I consider maths done (except for formalizing more), since the MetaMath software already has a lot of math converted in its format
14:10 < fltrz> the problem is not rigid rule of verifying a single step
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14:15 < fltrz> the MetaMath software does not use the concept of ontology (which is just vague pseudo-guaranteed patterns), so it can not force it
14:16 < fltrz> take for example the WikiData entry on "running" https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q105674
14:17 < fltrz> running is an "instance of sport discipline" ... what does instance of mean here? is every act of running an instance of sport? if I run away from a predator, am I doing sports?
14:17 < fltrz> they don't use actual statements in ontologies
14:18 < fltrz> then the definition of running: "method of terrestrial locomotion allowing humans and other animals to move rapidly on foot" I think most people would give similar definition at first thought, with the distinction from walking in the "rapidly"
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14:21 < fltrz> but a more formal definition of the distinction with walking would be that "while walking at all times at least one foot is supported by static friction with the floor", and running has moments where neither foot touches the floor/ground, which is less stable if you wish to correct or change your motion (you have to wait until a foot is in contact with the ground again)
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14:23 < fltrz> we could try formally define everything, and the people best trained at it (philosophers), are simply not recognizing the tools, and don't have the skill set to improve and adjust existing tools like metamath so they can collaborate systematically
14:23 < fltrz> so all these philosophers are stuck more in "island towers" than "ivory towers"
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--- Log closed Wed Oct 03 00:00:20 2018