--- Log opened Fri Nov 16 00:00:22 2018
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04:39 < nsh> mass genetic modification of humans sounds like a terbil idea
04:39  * nsh surveys civilisation to check on how humans are otherwise getting along with their interfacing with complex ecological systems
04:39 < nsh> yup, that can fuck right off.
04:39 < fenn> human cells
04:40 < nsh> human cells are a complex ecological system
04:40 < nsh> we are not good at those
04:40 < fenn> the problem is gene therapy has very low efficiency up until now
04:40 < nsh> good
04:40 < fenn> human cells are not an ecosystem
04:40 < nsh> i prefer disease
04:40 < nsh> i'm not being facetious
04:40 < nsh> disease is better than fucking shit up
04:40 < fenn> enjoy your disease then
04:40 < nsh> i will :)
04:40 < nsh> when we understand immunity
04:40 < nsh> on some non-zero conceptual level
04:40 < nsh> then maybe we can talk about gene therapy
04:40 < nsh> until then we're just fucking shit up
04:41 < fenn> if 'fucking shit up' means the patient survives, what's the problem?
04:41 < nsh> there is no gene therapy that is going to be better than glycosphate on a level of conceptual sophistication of ecological respect
04:41 < nsh> the problem is we don't understand what we're tampering with
04:41 < nsh> and we're just scaling up the intensity
04:41 < nsh> of the tampering
04:41 < nsh> to make up for our lack of understanding
04:41 < fenn> did you even read the article?
04:42 < nsh> i'm observing in general
04:42 < nsh> do you know how many things you can tweak in a car to make it perform better in some selective regard
04:42 < nsh> that will make it fall apart in half the time?
04:43 < nsh> a lot of things
04:43 < nsh> now scale that complexity up beyond [literally] the ability of a human to comprehend
04:43 < nsh> go ahead, fuck with things to optimise stupid objective functions
04:43 < nsh> but you'll break other things
04:43 < nsh> that's how it goes
04:43 < nsh> and the usual compensatory mechanisms probably do not have time to respond
04:43 < fenn> say you have cystic fibrosis. this is a problem in secreting mucus in the lungs, caused by sodium transporters being broken in some genetic way (it's not always the same way)
04:44 < nsh> and all that's at stake is basically all life on the planet
04:44 < nsh> fenn, you know nothing. we know nothing, about tertiary of higher order genetic or metabolic or signalling interactions
04:44 < nsh> this is hubris
04:44 < nsh> extreme hubris
04:44 < fenn> gene therapy could work, but it's not good enough to transform all the cells, so it doesn't really work in practice
04:44 < nsh> good
04:44 < nsh> this is very good
04:44 < nsh> trying to overcome this by brute force is very not clever
04:45 < nsh> if you want coverage, understand how genes actually work
04:45 < nsh> we're not even close
04:45 < fenn> the alternative is you slowly suffocate on your own phlegm, or die when you have a lung transplant that goes wrong
04:45 < nsh> if we were close the word "holography" would have currency in MCB
04:45 < nsh> it doesn't
04:45 < nsh> so we're not even close
04:45 < nsh> every organism dies
04:45 < nsh> that's actually a feature
04:45 < fenn> what's MCB?
04:45 < nsh> molecular cell biology
04:45 < nsh> sorry
04:45 < nsh> dying is a feature, dying of disease is a feature
04:45 < nsh> all of this is the cost of doing business
04:45 < nsh> genetically
04:46 < nsh> it's death or monoculture
04:46 < nsh> those are the options
04:46 < fenn> if you fix the mutation in the germ cells then you won't pass the disesase on to your kids
04:46 < nsh> i prefer death
04:46 < nsh> you think things only have one effect
04:46 < nsh> that's why you're too dangerous to be allowed to fuck with genes
04:46 < nsh> :)
04:46 < fenn> yes, spontaneous mutations are usually bad
04:47 < nsh> due to complex interactoins, which we don't understand
04:47 < fenn> if they were good mutations they wouldn't kill you
04:47 < nsh> do you think a mutation has a status of goodness/badness that is fixed?
04:47 < nsh> does not change over time? does not depend on the environment?
04:47 < nsh> is this a viable concept?
04:47 < nsh> is it perhaps a terrible concept?
04:48 < nsh> even in the most trivial cases
04:48 < nsh> like sickle cell say
04:49 < fenn> shouldn't you be worrying about climate change or something
04:49 < nsh> .wik Radium girls
04:49 < yoleaux> "The Radium Girls were female factory workers who contracted radiation poisoning from painting watch dials with self-luminous paint." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radium_girls
04:49 < nsh> ^ this could be our species or our planet
04:49 < nsh> because we're in too much of a hurry
04:49 < nsh> to be bothered to understand what we're doing
04:49 < nsh> and in great haste to industrialise everything
04:49 < nsh> when human industry itself is being definitively proven by the planet to be shit
04:49 < nsh> and generally a bad idea
04:50 < nsh> and people with the intelligence that you possess should be on the right side of understanding this, not the wrong side
04:50 < nsh> it's fine to be a futurist without being hubristic
04:50 < nsh> many have achieved the former without succumbing to the latter
04:50 < fenn> we're not moving fast enough, as i see it
04:50 < fenn> too much fear of failure, not enough fear of not making progress
04:50 < nsh> well, there's a paradox certainly
04:50 < fenn> status quo is killing the planet
04:51 < nsh> we need to most faster because we're moving too fast and the window of our species-as-currently-performing being supported by the planet is closing
04:51 < fenn> yes
04:51 < fenn> there's no possibility of going backward
04:51 < nsh> but perhaps the solution is to end capitalism, not burn the planet trying to escape the consequences of capitalism
04:51  * nsh shrugs
04:51 < nsh> your trip :)
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04:55 < fenn> it's all you assholes afraid of change that make it so that only monsanto can afford enough lawyers to make genetic engineering happen. that's why we get boring glyphosate resistance genes
04:56 < fenn> it's why we don't have enough nuclear reactors to head off climate change before it's too late
04:56 < fenn> and soon it will be why only national intelligence agencies will have access to AI
04:57 < fenn> enjoy your free healthcare while it lasts
05:00  * nsh blinks
05:00 < nsh> anyway, whole body single gene mutation therapy is probably not going to result in frankenhells but i was just practicing my luddite rhetoric
05:00 < nsh> sorry
05:01 < nsh> i'm not sure i agree that risk aversion is responsible for any of the terrible things you highlight though
05:01 < nsh> i think there's some dubious analysis there but i cba to figure it out
05:01 < fenn> unnecessary regulation driving up expenses until the thing itself is practically impossible
05:02 < fenn> the regulation in these cases being driven by fear rather than actual consequences
05:02 < fenn> and always neglecting to consider the upside
05:09 < fenn> dying is bad for the planet
05:10 < fenn> all the resources that went into raising and educating you, wasted
05:11 < fenn> knowledge of how to do things better and more efficiently, lost
05:16 < fenn> now i'm all riled up and can't sleep
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12:37 < TMA> fenn: arguably, dying is good for the planet too. for one, it is bad enough that there are 7e9 or 8e9 humans, without dying the number would be more like 8e10
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14:47 < uniera> kanzure: are you here?
14:51 < uniera> If someone is here I'd like to get feedback on this: https://openwater.cc
14:53 < superkuh> Discussed here a few weeks (or was it a month or so) back.
14:55 < uniera> Can you sum it up in a few lines? superkuh
14:55 < superkuh> Nope, but the logs are at http://gnusha.org/logs
14:55 < uniera> IK about the logs but I wanted a closer window to search it up
14:56 < uniera> Weeks to months are still some logs
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23:25 < nmz787> TMA: well some argue that life is inevitable as a result of the second law of thermodynamics (entropy increases over time) https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-new-thermodynamics-theory-of-the-origin-of-life-20140122/
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--- Log closed Sat Nov 17 00:00:23 2018