--- Log opened Wed Feb 13 00:00:48 2019
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03:51 < kanzure> .title https://www.thehastingscenter.org/chinese-bioethicists-respond-case-jiankui/
03:51 < yoleaux> Chinese Bioethicists Respond to the Case of He Jiankui - The Hastings Center
03:52 < kanzure> this article (and many others) sets the venefits of enhancement to zero and the risks to infinity
03:52 < kanzure> benefits, rather
04:45 < nsh> not unlike your hyperbolic commentary :)
04:45  * nsh reads the article
04:45 < nsh> anyway, at least half of the risks *are* the benefits
04:46 < nsh> the point about not throwing the baby out with the bathwater is at least positive
04:47 < nsh> one would think
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06:58 < kanzure> nsh: i absolutely must protest. where have i said there are zero risks? the whole game is about quality control.
06:58  * nsh nods
06:59 < nsh> it's just better to protest perhaps in moderate and measured terms not involving zeros and infinities :)
06:59 < nsh> although i accept the hyperbole was of frustration and not a desire to misrepresent
06:59 < nsh> i found the article balanced but i have different stakes i suppose
06:59 < nsh> i am not in a desire to make humans better genetically
06:59 < nsh> before we get better culturally
06:59 < nsh> and that latter has to happen quite urgently
07:00 < nsh> before we gain much new technology
07:00 < nsh> i'm not sure why post/transhumanists are not as concerned about our cultural sophistication
07:00 < kanzure> can't spell culture without cult
07:00 < nsh> than with the praxic applied sciences
07:00 < nsh> these are just toys if we can't get our shit together
07:00 < nsh> and a lot of the toys will kill us
07:00 < kanzure> culture is about groups. genetics is about an individual.
07:01 < kanzure> keep your group politics out of here
07:01 < nsh> well, that'd be neat if it weren't incredibly wrong :)
07:01 < nsh> lol
07:01 < nsh> genetics is about a lifespan and a complex and continually evolving relationship between an organism and its environment
07:01 < nsh> where environment also means all the other organisms
07:02 < nsh> there's no such thing as an individual :)
07:02 < nsh> there's just interfaces between organisms
07:02 < nsh> and different degrees of mediation
07:02 < nsh> anyway, sorry. i don't mean to cause upset :)
07:02 < nsh> but the humans get the toys as and when they meet the challenge of not being dickheads
07:02 < nsh> and that is not negotiable
07:11 < kanzure> alright do you even believe that genetics is real
07:17 < kanzure> https://issues.org/new-policies-needed-to-advance-space-mining/
07:25 < kanzure> "Practical enclave malware with Intel SGX" https://arxiv.org/abs/1902.03256 https://github.com/sgxrop/sgxrop
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08:04 < ebowden_> there's no such thing as an individual :)
08:04 < ebowden_> wut
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08:06 < ebowden_> "there's no such thing as an individual :)" It's like someone decided that they had to out-moron "there's no such thing as society" and that's what they came up with.
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08:23 < archels> in-duh-vidual
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10:53 < NikopolSohru> Hey people
10:54 < NikopolSohru> What is the ratio of people waiting for breakthroughs and following these versus people actually doing R&D?
10:55 < NikopolSohru> (at this channel)
10:57 < kanzure> well i've banned all the waiters i think
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11:00 < NikopolS> A waiter is someone who is merely observing?
11:00 < NikopolS> Or not contributing anything to the community?
11:02 < NikopolS> Does anyone have any reliable figures on the transhumanism market size? There are only very expensive research reports to be found online costing a couple thousand dollars that go into detail regarding this sector.
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11:04 < NikopolS> Like this one: https://www.researchandmarkets.com/research/xcfdtp/transhumanism?w=12
11:18 < jrayhawk> there's no such thing as the reification fallacy because reification is just, like, a concept, man
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13:09 < kanzure> is healthcare considered transhumanism? i don't know, man.
13:10 < Urchin> only if it enhances over the natural capabilities
13:12 < kanzure> i find this question vague and unhelpful
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13:16 < fenn> no, healthcare is regular humanism
13:16 < fenn> it's like the old testament; it still applies, sort of
13:19 < kanzure> cathal garvey doesn't understand that genetic engineering is cheaper than a lifetime of education https://groups.google.com/d/msg/diybio/ip_7iH70sNs/d_YyRY6_FwAJ
13:44 < TMA> the question of transhumanism/humanism demarcation is like the artificial intelligence of old -- a problem ceases to be an AI problem the moment it is solved
13:59 < streety> Is that truly the misunderstanding? Genetically raising the likelihood of high IQ is not going to be much use without education to grow and direct that potential. It seems more a difference in perspective. Is the best way to improve society 1) reducing the variation by raising up the less fortunate or, 2) increasing the variation by raising up the most fortunate with the assumption that everyone will be lifted up from trickle down effec
14:00 < NikopolS> Many place a dividing line between curing people from illnesses/defects (healthcare) and improving already healthy people (transhumanism).
14:00 < NikopolS> I think it's a thin line and hairsplitting. Vaccinations are enhancements to some for example.
14:01 < streety> I've not been following what is being suggested. From the article it was unclear whether the sperm of each couple would be modified or whether a single individual would have his sperm modified or a particular trait and it would then be distributed widely
14:06 < kanzure> even in the absence of education, better memory or other cognitive abilities is very useful, and can lead to the acquisition of knowledge even in the absence of a formal government-sponsored learning environment
14:07 < kanzure> also, i am not interested in society, i am interested in individuals- if my goal was "improving society" then that would be something else.....
14:08 < kanzure> streety: oh thanks for pointing out that ambiguity. that's very helpful.
14:08 < kanzure> that's actually frightening that it didn't come off clearly. specifically, it's about two parents coming together to make a child that is genetically theirs but modified.
14:10 < kanzure> i think the alternative that you propose would just be called sperm banking
14:13 < streety> I did wonder what the advantage was over just finding someone with the allele you want. I thought it would be each individual couple but always worth checking
14:13 < kanzure> well, maybe you want multiple alleles or other modifications
14:16 < streety> I think the issue of individual or society gets to the heart of some of what Cathal was talking about. Life will be bad regardless of your genetic gifts in a broken society. Education also doesn't have to be government sponsored. Neither does the government need to be involved in sanitation or electrical supply but it is nice when those are available and not nice when they are not.
14:17 < streety> True, it may be difficult to impossible to find someone with the multiple alleles you are seeking.
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15:11 < fenn> streety: genetic engineering enables the creation of alleles that don't exist in the wild
15:11 < fenn> and more
15:13 < fenn> genetic engineering doesn't have to be government sponsored, but it's nice when it's available to all
15:14 < fenn> somehow this has gotten flipped to "i can't have it, so neither can you"
15:14 < fenn> instead of "everyone should have it if they want"
15:15 < kanzure> a lot of people are stuck on the "only natural alleles" thing
15:16 < kanzure> everyone has been so focused on hunting for the 500 traits that contribute to height that they forget about genetic engineering alternatives
15:17 < fenn> height is socially desirable because it correlates with health in general, precisely because there are 500 different genes contributing
15:18 < fenn> if you offered to give someone marfan syndrome, they would probably reconsider
15:41 < streety> True, you could in theory have an entirely designed genome. I assumed known alleles with well characterized phenotypes would be the place to start though
15:46 < kanzure> sometimes you can look at why alleles produce an interesting phenotype, and do engineering things to produce similar or more pronounced results
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15:53 < nmz787> yeah I get upset at the "I can't have it, so neither can you" attitude... and the general attitude of government intervening on what an individual can do to their own body (progeny included, at least in developmental stages)
15:53 < nmz787> it's very anti libertarian, I think (I'm bad at political keywords)
15:59 < kanzure> let's try a mouse with a dopamine receptor that has 10x binding efficiency
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18:40 < kanzure> "But we don’t have nearly enough understanding to justify trying to introduce traits like “growing muscles without exercising,” or extending lifespan."
18:40 < kanzure> riiight
18:40 < kanzure> it's not like muscles don't exist if you don't exercise (are people really this stupid?)
18:55 < ebowden_> Why is extending lifespan supposed to evil again?
18:56 < kanzure> uhh
18:57 < kanzure> https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/en.futurama/images/7/7e/Brainslug.jpg
19:01 < ebowden_> kanzure, it would be interesting to see the effect of 50 extra copies of the P53 tumour suppressor protein (With the regulatory element left intact of course.).
19:10 < ebowden_> Hmm, maybe just 20.
19:12 < ebowden_> https://www.nature.com/news/how-elephants-avoid-cancer-1.18534
19:45 < kanzure> .title
19:45 < yoleaux> How elephants avoid cancer : Nature News & Comment
19:49 < kanzure> "Emergence of individuality in genetically identical mice" http://science.sciencemag.org/content/340/6133/756
19:49 < kanzure> fun article, but nautil.us is interpreting this to imply that the mice showed a "full range of bodily variations" observed in the general population
19:50 < kanzure> which seems to be incorrect (the abstract of the paper seems to indicate it's only an assessment of neural development and the resulting behavioral differences)
20:02 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=cd0198d9 Michael Folkson: Add Elaine Ou transcript from Chaincode Residency >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/chaincode-labs/2018-10-22-elaine-ou-bootstrapping-lightning-node/
20:02 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=7ec75615 Bryan Bishop: Merge pull request #30 from michaelfolkson/add-elaine-ou-chaincode >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/
20:12 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/michaelfolkson/status/1095895368745844742
20:12 < yoleaux> @kanzure I think I have different viewpoint. If it's a really informative talk that I learn a lot from I don't care if it is a transcript from a year ago or one from yesterday. For these talks I'd prefer the transcript was accurate and comprehensive rather than posted immediately. (@michaelfolkson, in reply to tw:1095840103048642560)
20:12 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/michaelfolkson/status/1095897171860381698
20:12 < yoleaux> @kanzure I think this is especially true for the historical motive of wanting to maintain an accurate and comprehensive record of the seminal talks from Pieter, Greg, yourself etc. Those that are less educational/seminal don't need to be perfectly (or speedily) transcribed imo. (@michaelfolkson, in reply to tw:1095895368745844742)
20:28 < kanzure> "A predictive molecular model for the development of human intelligence" http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/A%20predicted%20molecular%20model%20for%20development%20of%20human%20intelligence%20-%202018.pdf
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--- Log closed Thu Feb 14 00:00:49 2019