--- Log opened Sun Mar 17 00:00:18 2019
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00:41  * adlai has considered himself a cyborg ever since [gradual superposition collapse of multiple moments such as] realizing that using a walking stick enables not merely support, but also sensing the texture of pavement
00:43 < adlai> another such moment, repeated uncomfortably often: spending 4~5 consecutive circadian days studying a conceptome (eg, organic chemistry, metacircular evaluators, continuum mechanics) and subsequently parsing concepts within that conceptome during an unconscious experience (ie dream)
00:44 < adlai> e.g.: "why is it so difficult to prove the poincare conjecture by merely reversing ricci's gradient?"
01:15 < TMA> for /me the moment was my first dental cavity filling (retroactively identified, I had no current interest in cyborgs at the time)
01:16 < adlai> did you see an imperceptibly rapid increase in the blue-field entoptic phenomenon?
01:17  * adlai had an applicator coated with "local anaesthetic" touched to the spot being operated upon, at the moment the world exploded; and while the pieces were still floating about in that familiar divergence-free manner, asked the dentistlady: "maam, did you just turn it off and back on again, or was there some funny business here?"
01:18 < adlai> to which her response was roughly, "i dunno, i just fly the drone"
01:19 < adlai> "here, have a list of ingredients: binders, fillers, letters, and we packaged the meaningless numbers separately"
01:20 < adlai> on a serious note, some folks have had [incredibly inefficient] EM antennae paralleling their mandibles for... quite a while.
01:21  * adlai even insisted to the orthodontist: "no, i don't want a mouthful of metal, i want retainers that can be emplaced and removed", to which the response was... "lol"
01:22  * TMA has troubles understanding. words are fine, syntax is fine, but the semantics of adlai's utterances feel askew to intellegibility
01:22 < TMA> that
01:23 < adlai> TMA: ok, which semantic was unintelligible?
01:24 < TMA> adlai: sorry, I just do not comprehend, though there are certain quite surrealistic imaged evoked
01:25  * adlai issues a predictive, preemptive, clarification: the yes/no question at 0816 was aimed for TMA in response to TMA's 0815 comment; the rest of adlai's verbiage was his own reminiscence, evoked a similar experience..
01:25 < TMA> adlai: for one: how I can see imperceptible increases? is it some kind of colorless greens and furious sleeping?
01:25 < adlai> not at all. have you ever witnessed the blue-field entoptic phenomenon?
01:26 < adlai> it's sometimes called "seeing stars": passage of different blood cells in retinal capillaries does modulate the signals received, although the conscious mind will usually suppress these changes.
01:27 < adlai> quite often, small numbers of such modulations make it past conscious suppression, although they are noticeably distinguishable from the full field.
01:27 < adlai> think of those as "perceptible increases", whereas an "imperceptible increase" is simply having the entire field jump into visibility.
01:28 < TMA> no, never. it is being filtered out by the CPU
01:28 < adlai> in my experience, it rarely returns to subliminality in such a sudden manner; the appearance is either gradual or sudden, and the departure is always gradual.
01:29 < adlai> hah. well, you may have a better calibrator-recalibrator than I :)
01:30 < adlai> last week, I asked a physics lab instructor whether a well-aimed neutrino could trigger a discernible signal in the retinal neurons... the fellow seemed quite pleased at the question!
01:31 < adlai> TMA: which part of your brain do you consider "the CPU"?
01:33 < TMA> the whole of it that is not dislocated to outside of the cranial cavity
01:36 < TMA> the rest of the nerves <adverb: probably certainly but there might be some competing plausbile theories> do constitute a part of some greater processing unit (in the sense of them doing some processing too), but the rest is not central
01:40 < TMA> at least the spinal cord is known to do some processing independent of the CPU
01:53 < adlai> the adverb at which you indicated could plausibly be spelled plausibly.
01:55 < adlai> do you consider annealing of stationary-action photon paths "processing", or do you just assume that photon travel by fermat's insufficient margin algorithm?
01:55 < adlai> because if you make such assumptions, your assumptions may be overfit.
01:58 < TMA> I meant a greater level of certainity than implied by "plausibly" (if only because of energy optimization -- neural tissue is quite energy hungry and when it would not serve a useful purpose it would eventually be reduced by evolutionary processes; we would observe that in some species, yet vertebrates seem to be innervated (peripherially) in the same pattern)
02:00 < adlai> I have encountered conflicting claims regarding computation in the peripheral nervous system; everything that seems sensible suggests certain stimulus-response loops are entirely outside the cranium.
02:00 < adlai> trivial examples left as homework for people who enjoy measuring response times.
02:06 < adlai> censorship of the indubitously-correct adverb is doubleplushelpful, and will continue at the whims of the currents of space, time, et cetera.
02:08 < TMA> now, you are just messing with me wordwise
02:09 < TMA> (to which I deign but add: kudos!)
02:11 < TMA> [your text is either level 3 or 4: either sensible pretending to be gibberish pretending to be sensible, or gibberish pretending to be sensible pretending to be gibberish pretending to be sensiblesensible pretending to be gibberish pretending to be sensible]
02:12  * TMA has a hard time discerning those levels
02:12 < TMA> or maybe even higher level, in which case the effort is wasted on me
02:14 < adlai> TMA: I do my best to make sense to myself, and to anyone who has access to the texts from which I've learned meanings of words. I do not consider dictionaries as texts, for the purposes of the current IRC message...
02:15 < adlai> ... and if you're trying to classify texts into integers of small magnitude, consider "cuil theory"
02:15 < adlai> .wik cuil theory
02:15 < yoleaux> "Cuil (/ˈkuːl/ KOOL) was a search engine that organized web pages by content and displayed relatively long entries along with thumbnail pictures for many results. Cuil said it had a larger index than any other search engine, with about 120 billion web pages. It went live on July 28, 2008." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuil
02:15 < adlai> hmmm, that's not quite the old internet garbage I had in mind.
02:17 < adlai> here's a better snippet: "One Cuil = One level of abstraction away from the reality of a situation. Example: You ask me for a Hamburger. 1 Cuil: if you asked me for a hamburger, and I gave you a raccoon. 2 Cuils: If you asked me for a hamburger, but it turns out I don't really exist.Where I was originally standing, a picture of a hamburger rests on the ground."
02:17 < TMA> to the photon question: I find it rather hard to relate that to the question of neural processing. it can be _interpreted_ as processiong, because quantum effects have the properties that (a) some outcomes are forbidden or less probable than others for certain classes of input states and (b) the outcomes are determined (at least probabilistically) by the inputs
02:18 < adlai> the internet text which I recall encountering in high school, in some wikiform website, gave examples up to roughly six cuil.
02:18 < TMA> that being said the thing that neural tissue does can be too thought of as some sort of processing, because it obeys similar constraints
02:19 < adlai> "neural processing" is a near-useless concept, since the assumption that neurons act as consensus gates in a conventional processor is a gross oversimplification.
02:19 < adlai> granted, the human brain seems to have evolved towards such a local minimum.
02:21 < TMA> I am all for useful gross oversimplification. [useful emphasized]
02:23 < adlai> my brief forays into the theory and practice of the electromagnetic field, along with my casual interest in the rest of published physical research, suggest that action potential propagation, and ion channel operation, are nowhere near as trivially-simulable as the ANN-fans would wish.
02:26 < TMA> I agree. I have not said that the mechanism by which neural tissue does its shenanigans/work is simple. I have hopefully not implied that much
02:27  * adlai did not conclude such an implication; however, my explicit warning against simplification remains emphasized, despite the admittable usefulness of overfitting in certain context.
02:29 < adlai> extracting value from a financial market during multiple seasons (of both interpretations: e.g., daily cycles as solar/sidereal seasons, and bull/bear markets as psychological seasons) is quite educational as regards the pitfalls of overfitting.
02:30 < TMA> the thing I hopefuly implied is (1) stimuli and responses are somewhat systematically related and by that alone is some form of processing of the stimuli implicated (2) some of that processing is performed entirely outside cranial cavity (3) I ascribe the lack of perception of white dots to the part of my neural system that resides in the cranial cavity
02:30 < adlai> the aforementioned phenomenon is not "white dots"!!!
02:31  * adlai believes that the medical literature is rife with detailed descriptions of this phenomenon, likely more accurate than his own memory.
02:32 < adlai> regrettably I can't continue this conversation now, as I must visit the medical meatspace; they have some documentation in need of relocation...
02:45 < TMA> the cuils seem like a unit of a different phenomenon
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--- Log closed Mon Mar 18 00:00:19 2019