--- Log opened Wed Mar 27 00:00:27 2019
03:15 < TMA> group selection (as such) is a nonsense, but there are certain mechanisms that might look superficially like group selection is taking place
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04:33 < TMA> also the article seems to attack a strawman version of the selfish gene
04:36 < fenn> indeed
04:37 < TMA> it even presents an example (the extinct locusts) that is a support _for_ the selfish gene framework
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04:40 < TMA> ans ad for the exponential growth... the number of people seems to follow the exponential graph quite well (with the occasional setback now and then -- the collapse of mediterranean in 1166 BC with the sea people, the black death, ...)
04:40 < TMA> s/ans ad/and as/
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06:31 < kanzure> https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2019/03/gene-editing-ethics-duke-crispr-william-hurlbut-stanford-bush-deepest-challenge-that-our-species-has-ever-faced
06:31 < kanzure> *this* is the "deepest challenge"?
06:31 < kanzure> "“It’s entirely possible that our grandchildren will go to the zoo and see nothing but genetically modified animals”"
06:34 < nsh> oh wow you've become more of a supervillain than i
06:34 < nsh> congratulations kanzure
06:35 < nsh> here is your ceremonial rogue's cloak
06:35 < kanzure> thank you, i try to be a little bit better than adolf hitler every single day
06:36 < kanzure> which, i'll point out, is distinctly better than aiming to be worse than hitler
06:36 < kanzure> "Ultimately, Hurlbut observed that all of humanity must soon arrive at a consensus on these “species issues” as a matter of global governance"
06:37 < kanzure> when has "all of humanity" ever had "consensus"? what on earth..
06:41 < nsh> don't leverage being misconstrued as on the wrong side of a moral question into finding the very idea of the question of morality ludicrous
06:41 < nsh> this is not a good way to manage the situation
06:41 < nsh> you can feel they are overreacting but you have to acknowledge that something causes a reaction
06:41 < nsh> else you will become amoral
06:41 < nsh> and i would have to intervene or something, and i'm an incredibly lazy person
06:42 < nsh> so scoff lightly if you have to scoff at all, and provide moderation and grounding rather than rejection of the tendency
06:42 < nsh> or do what you like but feel free to take these suggestions on advisement :)
06:45 < kanzure> your morality cannot be "i believe in global consensus"
06:45 < kanzure> that is not morality
06:56 < fenn> conservative religious people should not have a monopoly on morality
06:57 < fenn> when they do, people like Jiankui He have good justification to just tick off boxes and stop thinking
06:58 < fenn> because then it's just some backward religious thing you have to do to not offend anyone
06:58 < fenn> Hurlbut is doing more harm than good
07:04 < nsh> i'm not underwriting the position being opposed, just guarding against rejection of all concerns
07:04 < nsh> even if they are expressed a bit... naively
07:04 < nsh> morality can be loosely defined as striving to minimise potential harm
07:05 < nsh> or something like that
07:05 < nsh> and applied here still, which i'm sure you are doing
07:13 < kanzure> why are you accusing us of rejecting all concerns? what the hell is wrong with you
07:14 < kanzure> what a ridiculous position
07:15 < nsh> i'm not sorry
07:15 < nsh> i imagined this as a possibility and then i projected it
07:15 < nsh> it was a precautionary interjection
07:15 < nsh> not a judgement
07:15 < nsh> i should have expressed it better
07:15 < kanzure> it's not just you; these academic scientists also assumed unlawfulness.
07:15 < nsh> sure
07:16 < nsh> i'm sorry for falling into that error
07:16 < nsh> undoubtedly your thoughts on these reactions are not all laughing
07:16 < nsh> and you are making attempts to respond reasonably
07:16 < nsh> so pardon me for the perceived slight
07:18 < nsh> (although in my defence the exhortation was "don't" and there was observation "you have")
07:18 < nsh> (but there's still a slight implication of the latter, so i apologise)
07:18 < nsh> *was no observation
07:20 < kanzure> ok
08:09 < kanzure> something something DEA argued that steroids shouldn't be banned, where was that reference?
08:09 < kanzure> and then they got banned anyway because sports
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08:46 < nsh> mmm, dunno
08:46 < nsh> i do recall that the feds put a herculean amount of effort into undermining hushmail to bust a steroid ring
08:46 < nsh> (made them roll out a trojaned java app)
08:46 < nsh> (trojaned update of the java app that did the client-side encryption)
08:51 < kanzure> https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/pgnanm/the-drugs-won-the-case-for-ending-the-sports-war-on-doping
08:51 < kanzure> doesn't reference the thing i'm thinking of
09:09 < nsh> hard for me to imagine the DEA arguing against the banning of anything
09:09 < nsh> but i suppose not inconceivable
09:10 < nsh> oh maybe they wanted to focus on the drugs with higher profits for their forfeitures
09:10 < nsh> although that's more an FBI and local policecops racket
09:10 < nsh> (i'm guessing, knowing not very much actually about these things)
09:17 < fenn> https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/18864.Genetics_in_Science_Fiction
09:18 < fenn> beggars in spain is one of the harder to pigeonhole
09:18 < fenn> the genetically enhanced "sleepless" are smarter, kinder, more productive, and they still end up pissing off the rest of humanity
09:21 < kanzure> i've been meaning to read that one
09:22 < nsh> ooo, nice ty
09:32 < fenn> ok some of these are a bit of a stretch
09:32 < fenn> "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
09:33 < nsh> lolwut
09:34 < fenn> red queen's race?
09:34 < nsh> you gotta engineer pretty hard to get sentient playing cards
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09:45 < fenn> can anyone explain why peanuts cost more than peanut butter?
09:47 < fenn> i would gladly pay half price for broken or oddly shaped peanuts
09:50 < kanzure> is peanut butter even made out of peanuts?
09:51 < fenn> mostly
09:51 < nsh> the answer probably depends in some way on the fact that all products come in varying buckets of quality
09:51 < nsh> and the butter is likely made from d-grade peanuts
09:51 < nsh> or things scooped up from the factory floor
09:51 < nsh> exaggerating slightly
09:51 < kanzure> ah yes the peanut factory
09:51 < nsh> it's also 60% sugar or so
09:51 < fenn> this peanut butter is at least 80% peanuts
09:51 < nsh> oh
09:51 < nsh> okay
09:51 < nsh> dunnos then
09:51 < nsh> MAGIC
09:52 < nsh> kanzure, i mean there various stages between the wild peanut of the savannah and the bag-o-nuts
09:52 < nsh> some of which are more of less factories
09:52 < nsh> *the
10:01 < nmz787> nsh: they definitely sell 100% peanut based peanut butter (other than the random contaminating insect)... it's all I've eaten in that department for more than a decade
10:01 < fenn> "peanuts go pretty much straight from the field to the production facility leaving little time or opportunity for molds to develop.
10:01 < fenn> The safe storage of peanuts can make them more expensive than they are in processed form."
10:01 < nsh> that would just be a jar of peanuts with no air in it nmz787
10:02 < nsh> surely to be buttery requires something else than a constitutional change
10:02 < nmz787> nsh: well, and masticated by a robot
10:02 < nsh> kk
10:02 < nsh> okay, guess that's within the definition if you extend it enough
10:02 < fenn> not sure this argument holds water either; you could just as easily have said "peanuts go straight from the field to the peanut roaster and then into a nitrogen filled sealed peanut jar"
10:03 < fenn> it's not like peanut butter keeps better
10:04 < nmz787> well it surely has better packing density
10:05 < nmz787> that's a terrible search to try and get google to perform
10:05 < nsh> lol
10:05 < nmz787> shipping artifacts abound
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15:14 < kanzure> https://github.com/BlockchainCommons/SmartCustodyWhitePapers/blob/master/%23SmartCustody-_Simple_Self-Custody_Cold_Storage_Scenario.md
15:23 < nsh> first i've heard of blockchain commons
15:26 < kanzure> christopher allen runs blockchain commons as an umbrella for a few of his things like smartcustody.com and his rebooting web-of-trust workshops https://www.weboftrust.info/
15:28 < nsh> hm
15:28 < nsh> simple + secure smartphone key maintenance is the first thought that springs to mind when i consider rebooting and scaling WoT
15:28 < nsh> or at least PDA
15:28 < nsh> not wed to GSM by any means
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18:36 < juul> nmz787: do I remember correctly that you were working on a UV spectrophotometer at ome point?
18:37 < juul> and if so, which UV dye did you use to make the UV wavelengths show up on a normal CCD?
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18:52 < jrayhawk> oh, that WoT stuff sounds interesting
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--- Log closed Thu Mar 28 00:00:28 2019