--- Log opened Wed Apr 03 00:00:34 2019
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08:43 < fenn> .wik creme puff (cat)
08:43 < yoleaux> "Creme Puff (August 3, 1967 – August 6, 2005) was a domestic cat, owned by Jake Perry of Austin, Texas. She was the oldest cat ever recorded, according to the 2010 edition of Guinness World Records,when she died aged 38 years and 3 days." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creme_Puff_(cat)
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08:45 < fenn> "he longevity of Perry's cats may have had something to do with an unusual diet of, among other things, turkey bacon and eggs, asparagus, broccoli, and coffee with heavy cream"
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09:08 < andytoshi> https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/04/02/social-censorship-the-first-offender-model/ not really ##hplus, but uses the E word poorly
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09:46 < fenn> kanzure doesn't get to unilaterally redefine words either
09:48 < kanzure> hm?
09:48 < fenn> 'eugenics' always meant improving the genetic fitness of a human population. it was only after it was put into practice that issues like coercion and government use of force against individuals crop up
09:49 < kanzure> i mean, surely now it refers to coercion
09:53 < fenn> link seems on-topic to me
09:54 < fenn> we have been talking about these exact same issues in back channels
09:56 < fenn> obviously the correct thing to do would be for burglars and muggers to form a mutual welfare pact
09:57 < fenn> when times are hard for burglars they are supported financially by muggers, and vice versa
09:57 < kanzure> i think scott has become a lot less insightful over the years, what happened to his strong belief in coordinated lawfulness winning over lawless barbarians?
09:58 < fenn> scott is important for providing well cited and politically neutral arena for commentary about coordination mechanisms, rather than any specific insight
09:58 < kanzure> https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/23/in-favor-of-niceness-community-and-civilization/
09:58 < mrdata_> forced sterilization might be genocide; who gets to decide the meaning of fitness?
09:58 < fenn> the above is useful for having actual discussions instead of the usual shit-slinging that happens when people talk about politics
10:00 < fenn> mrdata_: there are other ways to do eugenics
10:01 < mrdata_> robert a heinlein wrote about privately and quietly encouraging people to breed if they posessed favoured traits
10:01 < fenn> for example heinlein proposed an exclusive club of long-lived people who made arranged marriages; in order to get in you had to have a grandparent over 100
10:01 < fenn> gah
10:02 < kanzure> https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/tscc3e5eujrsEeFN4/well-kept-gardens-die-by-pacifism
10:02 < kanzure> https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/12/17/the-toxoplasma-of-rage/
10:03 < mrdata_> such clubs might exist but they dont advertize
10:03 < kanzure> https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
10:03 < fenn> there are jewish genetic matching organizations for similar purposes
10:04 < fenn> the goal in this case being elimination of inherited diseases, rather than a quantitative metric
10:04 < mrdata_> just make sure everyone agrees on what is a disease
10:04 < mrdata_> some might argue for/agaqinst red hair and left handedness, for instance
10:05 < fenn> ironically this is how the whole nazi hysteria got its inspiration; jews had done so much more research on genetic diseases than any other group that it was easy to say jews had lots of genetic diseases
10:06 < fenn> even though it was really just a streetlamp fallacy
10:08 < fenn> mrdata_: there are people arguing against making better people, because it would be unfair to the less better people
10:08 < fenn> in this case everyone agrees on what it means to be better
10:10 < fenn> it seems to be the main rallying cry of bio-ethics concern trolls these days
10:10 < fenn> (i call them trolls because the real issue is pseudo-religious opposition to human genetic engineering in general, not actually a sincere opposition to human enhancement)
10:12 < mrdata_> if we could instill greater moral and ethical behaviour into these superhumans then we wouldnt end up with the eugenics wars of star trek
10:13 < fenn> star trek never made clear who the combatants were in the eugenics wars
10:13 < fenn> so if you want to discuss a future scenario please be more clear about what you mean
10:14 < mrdata_> it is implicit that it was superhumans against ordinary
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10:16 < mrdata_> https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/SS_Botany_Bay
10:16 < archels_> https://twitter.com/zozi009/status/1112369039978827776
10:17  * fenn reads https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Eugenics_Wars
10:20 < fenn> with only 80 supermen ruling 1/4 of the planet and 30 million deaths it's likely the majority of the fighting was between regular unenhanced humans
10:21 < fenn> i feel like this whole future history is much like the transporter beam; a cheap way to explain why 24th+ century humans look the same and have the same capabilities as modern humans
10:21 < mrdata_> a tendency toward behaviour promoting peace instead of conflict might be a desirable trait
10:22 < fenn> why they still get old and die, have no meaningful AI, don't simply replicate new bodies for themselves, etc.
10:22 < mrdata_> long life seems a pathway to it
10:22 < mrdata_> if youre going to live 600 years, then you make plans for the future
10:22 < fenn> i agree
10:23 < fenn> unfortunately the mainstream opinion is "all genetic engineering is evil" and "life extension is evil"
10:24 < fenn> so we will have to make do with super hot cat girls for now
10:24 < mrdata_> the mainstream opinion is "life extension is evil"?
10:24 < fenn> you never noticed? even star trek is deathist
10:25 < fenn> it's so aggravating. i can hardly even find fictional portrayals of long-lived good guys
10:25 < fenn> heinlein's lazarus long is pretty lame and icky
10:28 < fenn> the popular opinion is that "death is a part of life" and "dying makes life mean something" and "dying makes you more productive during life"
10:29 < fenn> evil silicon valley vampires desiring to live longer must be doing so at the expense of others, leading to a dystopia of immortal wealthy overlords presiding over a nation of concentration camp level poverty
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10:29 < fenn> "imagine wrinkly gray fangs sinking into a young neck, forever"
10:29 < fenn> or something
10:30 < fenn> there is a real danger of status quo stagnation, but from my perspective that's already been happening for like forever
10:30 < fenn> we haven't had a new mode of transport since the 1960s
10:31 < fenn> i guess self driving cars, but that's not really a thing yet
10:31 < fenn> if the old people have their way it will continue not being a thing
10:39 < fenn> huh. more star trek trivia: "Arik Soong was actually correct in believing that not all genetically engineered Humans would turn out like Khan Noonien Singh. A good example of this theory was Dr. Julian Bashir, who was also genetically engineered."
10:45 < fenn> said genetic engineering was done by aliens, as it is illegal in the federation
10:54 < nsh> bashir was a massive 'phet addict but
10:54 < nsh> otherwise alright cunt
10:54 < nsh> sorry "stims"
10:55 < fenn> are you thinking of babylon 5? i don't see anything about that on his biography page
10:55 < nsh> oh yeah wait i am maybe
10:55 < nsh> hmm
10:55 < nsh> i feel like bashir had a similar problem though
10:56 < nsh> probably just brain wobble
10:57 < nsh> nope, was just wrong. ty
11:02 < fenn> well bashir is hardly poster child material
11:05  * nsh nods
11:05 < nsh> it's better that characters have flaws
11:05 < nsh> at least that's how i occasionally justify mine
11:06 < fenn> yeah but bashir was just a whiny bitch
11:06 < fenn> so what if he cured space aids
11:06 < nsh> aye
11:10 < nsh> TIL Hammurabi's code as written in the Akkadian the non-elitist regular literate person's language in Babylon
11:10 < nsh> (via: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammurabi)
11:10 < nsh> *was
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11:57 < kanzure> are we really debating the merits of star trek eugenics
11:57 < fenn> yep
12:06 < fenn> communicating ethical dilemmas that result from future technologies in an optimistic way is in fact the entire point of star trek
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12:08 < kanzure> hardly; look at how they treated their artificial lifeform: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Measure_Of_A_Man_(episode)
12:08 < fenn> well that was one of the dilemmas
12:09 < kanzure> they are a grieviously savage race, and actually tyrannical
12:09 < fenn> yes it's ironic how terrible the federation government is
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23:38  * nmz787 now owns a mini metal lathe
--- Log closed Thu Apr 04 00:00:34 2019