--- Log opened Sat Aug 31 00:00:56 2019
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10:10 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=8701e4aa Bryan Bishop: transcript: josiah >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/biohacktheplanet/2019/state-of-union/
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14:00 < nmz787> https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/conference-proceedings-of-spie/6618/661811/Explosive-embossing-of-holographic-structures/10.1117/12.726067.full
14:00 < nmz787> .title
14:00 < EmmyNoether> Explosive embossing of holographic structures
14:01 < nmz787> somewhat unrelated: https://www.osapublishing.org/abstract.cfm?URI=DLAI-1998-MQ1
14:01 < nmz787> .title
14:01 < EmmyNoether> OSA | How to (Maybe) Measure Laser Beam Quality
14:22 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=67ed58fa Bryan Bishop: transcript: daria dantseva >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/biohacktheplanet/2019/daria-dantseva/
14:36 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=983b9404 Bryan Bishop: transcript: glybera >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/biohacktheplanet/2019/state-of-union/
14:41 < nmz787> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL-YZ2sHWRg
14:41 < nmz787> .title
14:41 < EmmyNoether> 2 8  David Rosenthal - YouTube
14:41 < nmz787> MIST stuff
14:50 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=7b3a5c65 Bryan Bishop: transcript: glybera >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/biohacktheplanet/2019/glybera/
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14:57 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=e74b0d80 Bryan Bishop: more words >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/biohacktheplanet/2019/glybera/
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15:21 < kanzure> .title http://news.mit.edu/2019/life-science-funding-researchers-die-0829
15:22 < EmmyNoether> New science blooms after star researchers die, study finds | MIT News
15:23 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/DARPA/status/1166736432901308416
15:23 < EmmyNoether> Attention, city dwellers! We're interested in identifying university-owned or commercially managed underground urban tunnels & facilities able to host research & experimentation. https://go.usa.gov/xVWCn It's short notice... We're asking for responses by Aug. 30 at 5:00 PM ET. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDEUmbFW4AI4yYm.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDEUmbaXoAA9XDY.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDEUmb6W4AEsS_U.jpg (@DARPA)
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15:35 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF3PcdU8fEk
15:35 < EmmyNoether> Unfit for the Future: The Urgent Need for Moral Bioenhancement - Julian Savulescu - YouTube
15:38 < kanzure> more dna-based in vivo cellular recording https://www.cell.com/molecular-cell/fulltext/S1097-2765(19)30541-6
15:39 < docl> per wikipedians, cryonics is quackery and pseudoscience because the news says so
15:39 < kanzure> ohh is that how it works
15:39 < docl> yep
15:39 < kanzure> i just *knew* that cryogenic storage of eggs and sperm was complete BULLSHIT this whole time
15:39 < docl> news = reliable source = the truth until the news says otherwise
15:40 < kanzure> finally, i've been completely vindicated
15:40 < kanzure> "you can't freeze small things!"
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15:43 < docl> cryonics isn't small things though, it's brain sized things
15:44 < kanzure> i think that small cell freezing and resuscitation is a proof-of-concept
15:45 < docl> how so? small cells are spared the stresses of large organs because you can add/remove the heat and add/remove cyoprotectants more quickly
15:45 < kanzure> yes, so it was easier to achieve
15:46 < docl> implying any analogous protocol for brains hasn't been achieved yet
15:46 < kanzure> human brain resuscitation?
15:46 < kanzure> or are we talking about glutaraldehyde and similar protocols
15:46 < fenn> re: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDEUmbFW4AI4yYm.jpg:orig a subway station seems like a strange place to build a UFO
15:46 < docl> glutaraldehyde is basically abiological
15:47 < docl> freezing small samples and cells is not analogous to glutaraldehyde because the cells can be kept alive
15:48 < kanzure> i still think small cell freezing is a better proof of concept for morons who don't understand what we're going for here
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15:48 < docl> glutaraldehyde is great if you are planning for uploading (or some equivlent/better nanorepair), but it's in a totally different universe from biologically preserving cells like sperm and such
15:49 < docl> rhetorically speaking, I mean
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15:50 < docl> like, it's possible in principle to achieve a whole brain biological preservation, if you can tweak the parameters right (heat transfer, cryoprotectant delivery). we just don't have a way to do it.
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15:52 < docl> and we know from the rabbit and pig brain experiments that you can get really good histological/information theoretic quality with glutaraldehyde, which doesn't get lost when you vitrify it
15:53 < docl> but what current day cryonics supposes to be reasonable is that post mortem perfusion and vitrification is already possible to good enough extent for some future technology to be able to reverse the damage. it's a really speculative idea.
15:56 < docl> it's a damning idea for contemporary medicine, since they could have been doing this at least since the 2000's (rabbit kidney experiment), and not offering the option to patients has created what one might term a back alley market (i.e. the niche filled by current day cryonics companies)
15:57 < kanzure> rob carlson is on stage here arguing in favor of the FDA
15:57 < kanzure> it's nauseating
15:58 < kanzure> docl: there needs to be a strong demonstration of memory preservation and recovery from a sample
15:58 < kanzure> until that happens, this isn't going to help
15:59 < docl> how is that going to happen?
15:59 < kanzure> it might be possible to use radioactive labeling and fear extinction learning
15:59 < kanzure> or uh.. the other simple mouse learning things.
16:00 < docl> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4620520/ isn't good enough?
16:00 < kanzure> highlight and label the synapses that grew in response to some learning event, and then demonstrate the ability to recover and discriminate specifically those synapses
16:00 < kanzure> .title
16:00 < EmmyNoether> Persistence of Long-Term Memory in Vitrified and Revived Caenorhabditis elegans
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16:00 < docl> note that it's not directly analogous to contemporary cryonics, since c elegans can be preserved relatively pristinely
16:00 < kanzure> not entirely, no, i think the problem is that while researchers can agree celegans can have memory and behavior, i think most people would need a critter that is more easily related to
16:01 < kanzure> doesn't have to be human though
16:02 < docl> wood frogs don't lose memory. also not directly analogous since it isn't vitrification, but is vertebrate and does go well below human survivable hypothermia
16:02 < docl> (wood frogs tolerate some ice formation, but maintain liquid state intracellularly, so they can't go more than a few degrees below 0 C)
16:08 < docl> honestly, wood frogs are more counterexample than example wrt how cryonics works physically. however, it does show memory preservation as something not affected much by temperature per se.
16:08 < kanzure> are you watching the biohacktheplanet stream?
16:09 < docl> no, where is it?
16:09 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/josiahzayner/live
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16:39 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=e2835c0e Bryan Bishop: transcript: aubrey de grey >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/biohacktheplanet/2019/ageing-as-a-disease/
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16:51 < docl> now he's dissing cynthia kenyon, as her work is not applicable to humans :P
16:52 < docl> aging vs climate change, compare & contrast
16:54 < docl> futuristic liberal guilt = not curing aging soon enough
16:56 < docl> longevity supplements usually are just CR mimetics => doesn't do much for humans
16:57 < docl> (apart from treat symptoms of calorie overconsumption)
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17:04 < docl> "Each one of the specific proposals that comprise the SENS agenda is, at our present stage of ignorance, exceptionally optimistic. Therefore, by multiplying the probabilities of success, the claim that all of these proposals can be accomplished, although presented with confidence in de Grey's writings, seems nonsensical. Consequently, the idea that a research programme organized around the SENS agenda
17:04 < docl> will not only retard ageing, but also reverse it—creating young people from old ones—and do so within our lifetime, is so far from plausible that it commands no respect at all within the informed scientific community."
17:04 < docl> .title https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1371037/
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17:04 < EmmyNoether> Science fact and the SENS agenda
17:04 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=9f313766 Bryan Bishop: more aubrey words >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/biohacktheplanet/2019/ageing-as-a-disease/
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17:08 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=a1ea9a2f Bryan Bishop: add categories >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/biohacktheplanet/2019/ageing-as-a-disease/
17:08 < docl> (paper from 2005 by 28 biogerontologists)
17:09 < fenn> has SENS changed their research agenda since 2005?
17:10 < kanzure> repairing damage or preventing it is a reasonable complaint. i'm definitely of the opinion that preventing damage is probably easier than repairing such damage.
17:10 < kanzure> fenn: aubrey says no
17:12 < docl> aubrey says he has had to constantly tweak details, but the 7 categories of damage are the same (and this has become mainstream)
17:13 < kanzure> alright let's get the stargate guy on stage...
17:14 < docl> "The current situation in the field is that we're still pursuing this damage repair strategy. But as I already summarized, and as some of you know, it's very much a divide and conquer strategy. There are many types of different damage accumulating in the body. Any of these types of damage can kill you on its own, more or less on a schedule, however well we fix all the others."
17:14 < docl> Many types = more than 7, but still in the same basic 7 categories?
17:14 < kanzure> yes
17:15 < kanzure> https://github.com/SCBuergel/dice2seed
17:16 < docl> I kind of think the 28 scientists in 2005 misunderstood the basic idea he was going for. The technologist vs researcher mindset might be to blame.
17:18 < docl> "the claim that all of these proposals can be accomplished" <- he was really saying "something along these lines for each, but these are rational starting points in each case"
17:19 < docl> now he says even the US isn't crazy enough not to pay for anti-aging healthcare
17:21 < docl> because it will be incredibly cheap, and save vast amounts of money on other healthcare costs
17:39 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=2a5e559c Bryan Bishop: transcript: david hewlett >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/biohacktheplanet/2019/biohacking-hollywood/
17:44 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=dd105034 Bryan Bishop: a few more words >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/biohacktheplanet/2019/biohacking-hollywood/
18:00 < docl> I'm interested in seeing some independent corroboration of Aubrey's claim that the 7 deadlies are now taken quite seriously and mainstream
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