--- Log opened Mon Sep 16 00:00:12 2019
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00:33 < justanotheruser> is there an alternative to the science journal model which doesn't involve academia, but instead something like a trust graph labeled peer review?
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01:21 < TMA> justanotheruser: I doubt it. There seems no economic incentive attached to the proposed model.
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02:30 < kanzure> justanotheruser: pagerank?
02:30 < kanzure> justanotheruser: i think the problem is that academic institutions (and grant-giving bodies) select projects based on citation record (or at least they claim to, and perhaps they do, where it is not straight nepotism and politics)
02:42 < fenn> UC is literally not buying new journal issues from elsevier, so they had better come up with something quick
02:42 < kanzure> do we even have a theoretical model or proposal as a drop-in alternative to the academic system?
02:42 < fenn> whuffie
02:43 < kanzure> "web of trust!!!!"
02:43 < fenn> i mean, no, we do not
02:43 < kanzure> that's an interesting observation itself.
02:44 < kanzure> i remember piwowowowar was pushing for "altmetrics" as alternative ways of assessing career progress and hiring scholars, but that's really just more of the same
02:44 < fenn> i think in general there's a lack of people skilled at designing robust systems for adversarial environments
02:44 < kanzure> thankfully there's relevant science fiction to save our collective ass... oh wait, no.
02:45 < fenn> clearly one must join the circle of eldritch wizards by summoning one of the forgotten gods...
02:46 < kanzure> one would think summoning a forgotten god would preclude forgetfullness but what do i know
02:47 < kanzure> do you really want an academic system based on reputation (politics)?
02:49 < fenn> "Twimpact factor"
02:49 < fenn> show me to the summoning circle
02:52 < kanzure> so the root question is how academic institutions (or funding agencies) should select projects or people to hire?
02:54 < fenn> academics are very careful about not actually mentioning any specific political implications
02:54 < kanzure> a bandaid solution would be to ban funding based on academic reputation
02:55 < kanzure> then they will have to spend dollars actually evaluating proposals
02:56 < fenn> it's difficult to get people who know anything at all about the subject to review each grant, and then it becomes a "guess who is submitting this grant" game, and once you figure it out it's a popularity contest
02:57 < kanzure> if you banned reputation as an evaluation criteria then all of the power of the big brand journals evaporates except socially (but after a while the effect will disappear)
02:57 < kanzure> well perhaps the nepotism stuff should have harsh punishment; von neumann should only select an alberto einstein project on reputation if von neumann stakes his reputation (or imprisonment) on the outcomes of that work or something.
02:58 < fenn> i don't think nepotism is the right word
02:58 < fenn> more like a good old boys club
02:59 < fenn> "outcomes of that work" is the problem though. there's no unbiased ungamed metric available
02:59 < kanzure> ring signatures for grant proposals: anyone can construct a proposal with a group signature of 200 of the top academics and other colleagues, and then only one of the n keys have to sign the proposal but nobody can tell which 1/n signed
02:59 < kanzure> .wik ring signature
03:00 < EmmyNoether> "In cryptography, a ring signature is a type of digital signature that can be performed by any member of a group of users that each have keys.  Therefore, a message signed with a ring signature is endorsed by someone in a particular group of people.  One of the [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_signature
03:00 < kanzure> "One of the security properties of a ring signature is that it should be computationally infeasible to determine which of the group members' keys was used to produce the signature. Ring signatures are similar to group signatures but differ in two key ways: first, there is no way to revoke the anonymity of an individual signature, and second, any group of users can be used as a group without ...
03:00 < kanzure> ...additional setup."
03:00 < fenn> that's not solving the problem either. we already have a system where n/k grant reviewers submit their reviews and then the grant director decides what to do
03:01 < kanzure> this would be to hide the true author
03:01 < fenn> nobody's hacking into NSF/NIH databases to find out who downvoted their grant proposal
03:01 < fenn> you can't anonymize the topic of the grant
03:01 < fenn> there's only one guy working on memory preservation in cryo-preserved c. elegans, etc.
03:02 < kanzure> if the system is going to be inherently political then it should be optimized for politics instead
03:02 < fenn> good luck with that
03:02 < kanzure> i'm not saying it's an ideal design, but pretending that it's something different is stupid
03:04 < fenn> impact factor removes some of the pressure on the political side of this process. now it's just about getting your paper into the journal, instead of trying to win over everyone in your field
03:05 < fenn> in japan each professor gets a small allowance to do their research, and they can do whatever they want with that money (within reason and propriety)
03:05 < fenn> i don't see any problem with this
03:05 < kanzure> basic income for professors
03:06 < kanzure> maybe pagerank-weighted basic income for scientists. ugh.
03:06 < fenn> yeah that's totally not game-able at all.
03:08 < kanzure> i want gameability but only gameability that generally preserves progress of science and technology development
03:13 < kanzure> media lab wants me to give a talk about "knowledge aggregation and propagation" in bitcoinland https://cryptoresearch.pubpub.org/speakers
03:18 < fenn> are you an anthropologist now
03:19 < fenn> oh they are trying to start an academic journal about bitcoin
03:20 < kanzure> this is the third or fourth attempt i think
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04:42 < kanzure> https://scholarlykitchen.sspnet.org/2019/08/08/open-source-for-scholarly-publishing-an-inventory-and-analysis/
04:43 < kanzure> not sure why "openness" is the rallying cry here; closed access is a symptom of the problem not the root issue. this would all still be quite awful (but perhaps less so) even if all the major publishers gave away their content.
04:56 < kanzure> java card runtime simulator https://jcardsim.org/
05:22 < kanzure> fenn: we forgot about the hanson/sztorc magic wand, "just use a prediction market"
05:29 < kanzure> so say you have a wild prediction that only you believe and literally nobody else believes. and there's nobody funding this problem or buying your contracts.
05:29 < kanzure> as far as i can tell, the strategy is: make some predictions/trades with your big brain on the prediction market, until you accumulate enough resources to pursue your own wacky ideas
05:30 < kanzure> it's not like there's an "invisible hand" obligated to buy the opposite side of your bet-- nobody wants to bet against (nor in favor!) of something like nectome's research strategy, so just selling that contract wouldn't be helpful.
05:31 < kanzure> i guess there could be an operator of this prediction market that assigns outsized rewards for wild crazy things, and subject to events coming true, the outsized reward becomes real even though it was originally specified by the user making the proposal?
05:34 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/RokoMijicUK/status/1173575606635847680
05:34 < EmmyNoether> @kanzure @Truthcoin @robinhanson @ReplicationMkts Even with citations someone could try a prediction market for citation counts for papers. (@RokoMijicUK, in reply to tw:1173575301898625029)
05:34 < kanzure> https://www.replicationmarkets.com/
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05:43 < kanzure> .title https://sfdora.org/
05:43 < EmmyNoether> DORA – San Francisco Declaration on Research Assessment (DORA)
06:27 < fenn> what would a prediction related to academic performance even look like?
06:27 < fenn> remember, you are not able to use any metrics except for the prediction market
06:27 < fenn> otherwise you could just use those metrics directly
06:28 < fenn> i feel like this is a pure speculation bubble
06:30 < kanzure> i think they mean, someone gets paid to "evaluate" a result for truthiness or something, and then they make a determination that awards the prediction winners
06:34 < fenn> completely useless for discovering new and unexpected things
06:35 < fenn> nobody will have made a bet on whether dinoflagellate sperm turns out to be a symbiotic parasite
06:35 < fenn> but it takes a special kind of person to find these things
06:38 < fenn> also useless for evaluating historians, philosophers, artists, and any other fields of study not specifically concerned with finding truth
06:38 < fenn> (there is an aspect of truth-finding to history, but most of it is deciding which fraction of the muck to sift out)
06:41 < fenn> doesn't work for evaluating engineering of any sort
06:42 < kanzure> okay to be fair, though, there's a long tail of research that will never be funded in any conceivable system anyway, and so that's not a design flaw of their prediction market
06:43 < kanzure> and not because it's a bad idea; just because there's lots of small things that could be investigated (and turn out to be really big things).
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07:38 < kanzure> https://www.bitcoin.kn/2019/09/thoughts-cold-storage/
07:38 < kanzure> .title
07:39 < EmmyNoether> Bitcoin Core developer Bryan Bishop discusses cold storage. - The Bitcoin Knowledge Podcast
07:39 < kanzure> .title http://mason.gmu.edu/~rhanson/ifexper.html
07:40 < EmmyNoether> Peer Review vs. Info Prizes
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07:40 < kanzure> "presuming that a photocopier is nearby"
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08:17 < kanzure> "Data storage in DNA with fewer synthesis cycles using composite DNA letters" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41587-019-0240-x
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09:22 < nsh> why not just call it a code like everyone else
09:22 < nsh> "composite letter" fuckssake
09:22 < nsh> are biologists actually prohibited from reading scientific literature outside of their speciality or something
09:22 < nsh> barely 1 in 10 are mathematically literate
09:23 < nsh> in fact just using the phrase "DNS letter" should be an instant paddling
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10:02 < kanzure> https://biohackinfo.com/news-russian-parliament-assisted-reproductive-technologies-law/
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10:42 < jrayhawk> nsh: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4030191/ biology, as a field, rewards lower-precision (lower acetylcholine) brains than mathematics does
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10:43 < nsh> acetylcholine is correlated with cognitive 'precision'?
10:43 < jrayhawk> Is.
10:44 < nsh> sounds dubious
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10:47 < nsh> brains don't do baysean analysis. brains do not have prior probabilities. brain do not fill out tax returns nor do they complement people's choice of footwear
10:47 < nsh> these are all human activities :)
10:47 < jrayhawk> "brains don't do baysean analysis" wat
10:48 < jrayhawk> "brains do not have prior probabilities" really really what
10:48 < nsh> neural assemblies may behave in a manner that is convergent to the results of humans performaning baysean anlysis
10:48 < nsh> you're missing the point
10:48 < nsh> never mind
10:48 < nsh> it's almost never worth explaining if it wasn't clear to begin with :)
10:49 < nsh> predictive coding is more suitably neutral/universal a choice of terminology
10:49 < nsh> neuronal assemblies may well engage in predictive coding
10:49 < nsh> but no pencils are involved and no latex symbols
10:50 < nsh> (the distinction i'm trying to make should be clear by now)
10:50 < jrayhawk> i have no idea what distinction you're trying to make unless it's some magic non-materialist thing
10:53 < nsh> you have five cats sitting in a smoky bar, jamming freeform jazz
10:53 < nsh> how many of them are performing baysean analysis?
10:54 < jrayhawk> all of them, constantly
10:54 < nsh> regardless their synchrony of playing and the musicality of the result follows from a complex supraorganisms tendency towards tonal and rhymthmic coherence through modelling, anticipation, and modulation
10:54 < nsh> but nobody is thinking about prior probailities
10:54 < nsh> and nobody is making explicit prediction nor observing errors in them
10:55 < nsh> it's just music; it works that way
10:55 < jrayhawk> you don't need to "think about" neural networks for your brain to use them
10:55 < nsh> the dynamics is more fundamental than the human techné built thereupon
10:55  * nsh reverts to never mind
10:55 < jrayhawk> 99% of people don't have even a basic grasp of what a neural network is, and yet, somehow...
10:56 < nsh> neural networks are also human contrivances :)
10:56 < jrayhawk> are you making some sort of map/territory error here, where because the map is imperfect, the territory doesn't exist?
10:58 < nsh> that would be overly generous
11:00 < TMA> it looks like there are two meanings used for 'bayesian inference' used here. nsh uses it in the sense 'do the math' whereas jrayhawk uses it for 'do any process that yields results comparable to doing the math'
11:01  * nsh nods
11:01 < nsh> the former is a human cultural contrivance and mathematical/scientific techné
11:01 < nsh> the latter is just part of how the universe works
11:01 < nsh> the gulf between them is palpable
11:02 < nsh> trying to project the former onto the latter is not going to end well unless you are aware of just how divorced your art is from nature's
11:02 < nsh> and the author doesn't seem to have any of this self-awareness
11:03 < nsh> so when you take a thing nobody understands the exact role of (acetylcholine) and you take a thing nobody can possible sufficiently precisely define in this context ('precision') and then you try to mash the two together to make Yet Another Half-Baked Theory of Autism
11:03 < nsh> you're just being silly
11:03 < nsh> you might be being silly in an erudite and interesting manner
11:03 < nsh> but it's still silly
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11:04 < jrayhawk> it's a unified theory of basically everything in the brain, not just autism
11:04 < nsh> people should be aware of this. it should require no explication
11:04 < jrayhawk> http://pharmrev.aspetjournals.org/content/71/3/316?fbclid=IwAR36UzFla5Lfx7-4LTr6R8N0XdUSOnbg3gnRPXn806cPKO7Zsas2EsJJhDs
11:04 < nsh> that is immeasurably worse
11:06 < jrayhawk> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2755113/
11:07 < nsh> ty
11:10 < TMA> nsh: [I mostly agree with you; completely with "trying to project the former onto the latter is not going to end well unless you are aware of just how divorced your art is from nature's", but] are you aware that the notion of preferring the awareness of the map/territory dichotomy is also detached from the physical reality where there are no preferrences nor any good/bad distinction?
11:11 < nsh> you don't solve philosophy by doing more of it :)
11:11 < nsh> may as well just start a blog at that point
11:11 < nsh> or a singularity university perhaps
11:12 < nsh> "Le corps humain est une Machine qui monte elle-même ses ressorts; vivante image du mouvement perpetuel. Les alimens entretiennent ce que la fièvre excite."
11:12 < nsh> -Descartes
11:12 < nsh> "the human body is a machine that winds its own springs"
11:12 < nsh> it was as good an analogy then as baysean analysis is today
11:12 < nsh> it's fine and well, but don't bet the farm on it
11:15 < nsh> "When two different images are presented to each eye at the same time, one does not tend to perceive a fusion or mixture of the two images—as would be consistent with the (available) sensory evidence; instead, perception alternates between each monocular image as if trying to resolve the Bayesian inverse problem with prior beliefs about the causes of sensations."
11:15  * nsh blinks
11:15 < nsh> see what i mean? once you have a hammer....
11:16 < nsh> once you spent 100k on university fees to have a PhD. in hammering, heaven have mercy on anything that doesn't consider itself a nail
11:16 < TMA> ... everything looks like a thumb
11:16  * nsh nods
11:18 < jrayhawk> you can see how that goes awry with the psychadelics paper permanently weakening priors and inducing "hallucinatory" noise.
11:18 < nsh> (i am autistic and when i (voluntarily) present myself with binocular rivalry (by going cross-eyed, for instance), i have complete conscious control over the degree or not of stereoblending or dominance)
11:19 < jrayhawk> and sometimes that hallucinatory noise only happens in one eye
11:20 < nsh> very little happens in the eye, neuronally :)
11:20 < jrayhawk> thanks for that very precise bit of input
11:20 < nsh> i doubt the eye does any hallucinating at all :)
11:21 < nsh> it's just good to think clearly, in my limited experience
11:21 < kanzure> RISC-V trusted execution environment https://keystone-enclave.org/
11:22 < kanzure> "An aberrant precision account of autism" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4030191/
11:29 < jrayhawk> oh, i should've said "high acetylcholine"
11:30 < jrayhawk> hurf durf
11:41 < kanzure> https://blog.ycombinator.com/yc-and-ginkgo-bioworks-announce-new-partnership-for-synthetic-biology-startups/
11:42 < kanzure> .title https://github.com/minimaxir/ctrl-gce
11:42 < EmmyNoether> GitHub - minimaxir/ctrl-gce: Set up the CTRL text-generating model on Google Compute Engine with just a few console commands.
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15:50 < kanzure> "There is plenty of time at the bottom: The economics, risk and ethics of time compression" http://www.aleph.se/papers/TIPOTATB.pdf
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16:01 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/DavidIshee7/status/1173623048433471488
16:01 < EmmyNoether> Did you know the caterpillars of the Bagworm moth build elaborate suits of armor out of silk and debris? As soon as they hatch they start building their case and as they grow longer they add material to is so they can crawl around and eat in relative safety. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EEmL8C6XUAMdBM0.jpg (@DavidIshee7)
16:02 < kanzure> .wik seebeck effect
16:02 < EmmyNoether> "The thermoelectric effect is the direct conversion of temperature differences to electric voltage and vice versa via a thermocouple." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seebeck_effect
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21:23 -!- LeoTal [~Adium@64.170.86.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
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21:38 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2606:6000:ca84:b300:9018:9211:5c11:660b] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:16 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
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22:42 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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22:43 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@172.58.59.80] has quit [Changing host]
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22:47 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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22:51 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@172.58.59.80] has quit [Changing host]
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22:54 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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22:59 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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23:05 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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--- Log closed Tue Sep 17 00:00:13 2019