--- Log opened Tue Oct 01 00:00:26 2019
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09:28 < kanzure> https://www.crowdsupply.com/f-secure/usb-armory-mk-ii
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10:57 < maaku> kanzure: buy a batch of them this time
11:00 < kanzure> would be nice if this thing had a small screen
11:00 < kanzure> even a single line screen
11:03 < maaku> kanzure: it has a USB-C extension slot. maybe a screen & input pad can be inserted there?
11:04 < kanzure> did you get to use the previous version?
11:04 < kanzure> model
11:06 < maaku> yes
11:06 < maaku> I know it lacked that feature
11:07 < maaku> We didn't use the secure elements onboard, but I'd like to in future projects
11:08 < kanzure> is it possible to do so? most secure elements don't let you use them..
11:08 < kanzure> e.g. manufacturer-approved-only software
11:10 < kanzure> for the way i'm interested in using this, i think it makes most sense to buy a bunch of $20 craptop laptops and dipose of them after each use
11:11 < kanzure> and also implement a live boot usb feature to boot up a dumb terminal on the craptop
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11:18 < maaku> You're not able to load software on it. It's not that powerful. It basically just has a couple of key registers, monotonic counters, etc. You send it commands like "use key#2 to sign this message." A quick look at the datasheets shows that the wire protocol isn't documented very well, but the linux kernel modules are open-source I believe.
11:19 < maaku> What this gets you that the laptop approach doesn't is protection against key exfiltration. But the secure element won't let you sign with secp256k1 keys, or do any complex verification.
11:20 < kanzure> all i want is a secure element that i can load arbitrary software on, once. i'm okay if i have to cry tears if it turns out i need to buy a new one to flash a bugfix.
11:21 < maaku> But that doesn't mean it's useless. You end up using it for secure boot, a source of entropy, a non-cloneable identity for higher level protocols that cat use p256 instead of secp256k1, etc.
11:21 < kanzure> could you send an update email to the email thread, even if your update is "no update"? plzkthx
11:22 < maaku> I haven't seen it. I'll go check.
11:22 < kanzure> (and if it is "no update", then at least outline the things that you were hoping to do in the past or future)
11:22 < maaku> But to finish, in this contet the USB Armory *is* your secure element. The secure enclave is just part of its security story with respect to secure boot, key provision, non-cloneability, tamper resistance, etc.
11:23 < kanzure> yeah but, i still want to use disposable craptops because i am pretty sure usb malware should be able to infect this armory device
11:24 < kanzure> plus, if the interface to the machine is typing on the laptop/machine it's plugged into, then malware can MITM your commands and the on-screen results of whatever you think your armory device is really doing
11:24 < maaku> That's why at $WORK we had a glorified USB condom to communicate with it.
11:24 < kanzure> recently in the news there was this stupid israeli startup claiming to have patented uni-directional data flow over the wire to a hardware wallet :-(
11:25 < maaku> *sigh* patents are so broken
11:26 < kanzure> maaku: separately, is there an interesting reason to prefer derivatives contracts instead of asking people to invest in shares of an asteroid mining company?
11:27 < maaku> kanzure: the contract market outlives any one company, and the financial industry isn't currently setup to support speculative ventures on the order of 15-25 years.
11:27 < kanzure> i don't think asteroid mining is 15 years out?
11:28 < kanzure> with enough investment i could see a shorter horizon
11:29 < maaku> idk. it's taken SpaceX 20 years to get here. real world hardware development is slower than what we're used to in software.
11:29 < maaku> plus plain orbital mechanics means you can't iterate that quickly
11:30 < maaku> so if you are pricing an asteroid mining contract the players involved can change over time and that's okay. it reduces the risk from one single entity going backrupt, and let's the contract rest on the liklihood of someone succeeding (at the strike price or lower)
11:32 < maaku> and (I believe) that also makes it more possible to get financing for a 15-25 year specultative venture, since they know there's large profits to be extracted from the derivatives market in doing so.
11:33 < maaku> I mean, there's large profits to be had in doing asteroid mining at scale. But you don't have to reach scale to profit, you just have to be the first to demonstrate which'll spike the market.
11:33 < kanzure> on the other side, there would need to be demand for precious metals 15 years out-- i guess there is, from an electronics industry perspective, but surely a few thousand kg could satisfy the world demand for consumer electronics for a while
11:33 < maaku> Also chemical catalysts.
11:34 < kanzure> oh right, the chemicals industries.. right. well.
11:34 < maaku> kanzure: but to your note in the doc, that non-public thing about finding meteorites on the moon is a big deal because it cuts out the orbital mechanics that add 2-4 years on each iteration
11:35 < maaku> the moon is always 3 days away
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11:58 < kanzure> maybe academic research should be funded by options on intellectual property (ugh); so you purchase the options upfront and sell them later (or exercise and reap the benefits). requires the upfront premium to fund the research though... so it has to be an assurance contract that spits out options later?
11:58 < kanzure> i still don't understand how hanson wanted to use a prediction market for that, or how researchers get bootstrapped and get their wacky predictions funded
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12:31 < fenn> $100 pcr machine sale http://www.the-odin.com/sale/
12:41 < fenn> maaku: 50-75 year land claim is too long, especially especially if all you need to do is send a robot to plant a flag
12:42 < fenn> squatters will end up owning everything and ruin the whole system
12:42 < fenn> also the whole thing feels very coercive
12:43 < fenn> if you don't play ball with the land claim monopoly you are just screwed
12:44 < fenn> the way i see this working out is, one company has a winning strategy that exploits a stupid loophole in the land claim rules, claims all the asteroids (or most of them) and then everybody has to pay large sums to this company just to begin mining
12:44 < fenn> as a result, small players are excluded because they can't afford the licensing fees
12:45 < fenn> at the very least they should be required to pay a recurring fee to keep the land claim active
12:48 < fenn> preferably one would have to pay a fee to keep an exclusive land claim, and the fee is proportional to a value that others can bid up - the market value. if others pay for use rights at this value, they can use the land as well. this keeps squatters from monopolizing everything, and retains the option of exclusivity, as long as you're willing to pay a lot to maintain that exclusivity
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15:15 < nsh> rights to the solar system real estate should be contingent on investing in (and showing returns for) exploration and exploitation/extraction/forward-operations infrastructure and not being a parasitical rentseeker
15:23 < docl> hmm. I've seen some speculation that we should have land value tax in space, but not sure how it would be implemented
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17:22 < HEIEH> @search what
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19:13 < lsneff> not sure who would administrate taxes and land claims in space
19:14 < fenn> i am discussing a document that is not public, perhaps i should have pm'd him
19:15 < fenn> i don't think it's a secret or anything
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20:51 < superkuh> https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/789982v1 "Vagus nerve stimulation increases vigor to work for rewards" as a follow up to prior papers that established non-invasive vagus nerve stimulation was possible via the nerves in the skin of the folds of the ear surface.
20:53 < fenn> https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Oo-mox
20:55 < fenn> https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Pagh
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21:17 < maaku> fenn: nsh: the long-duration land claims is necessary financial engineering to make long-duration mining ventures viable. however I have a rentless model in mind drawing on the best ideas of Henry George and Silvio Gesell.
21:18 < maaku> In 2013 I designed a property tax auction model for non-terrestrial mining claims that would solve this issue. It's not in the document because it's a bit into the weeds to specify.
21:21 < maaku> Oh I responded too early. Your last message fenn about a fee proportional to market value is spot on. My work in 2013 was in defining how that could work in a decentralized blockchain context (e.g. using bitcoin script, or something very similar).
21:25 < fenn> cool
21:26 < fenn> i'm glad you are aware of henry george, although "georgism" doesn't exactly apply to this scenario
21:32 < maaku> fenn: In what way? It isn't specified in the document, because it wasn't relevant to the target audience it was written for, but I see this being done by a for-benefit corporation that also takes on common infrastructure and enforcement roles in space. A real space force / space police that provides government services where existing international solutions fall short of commercial needs.
21:32 < maaku> over time it would naturally become the actual government
21:32 < fenn> that's horrible
21:33 < maaku> hah! that's not the reaction I was expecting. why?
21:33 < fenn> the entire earth is already completely colonized by governments; don't expand the sphere of un-freedom from here on out to infinity
21:34 < fenn> space is our only opportunity to exit
21:35 < maaku> Ok this is a libertarian objection?
21:35 < fenn> what i see is, you want everything to be claimed, and for it to be impossible to do business with anybody if you do not engage with the ruling monopoly
21:35 < fenn> i want there to be a healthy margin outside the system
21:35 < maaku> I think we're wandering into off-topic politics, which I'd love to debate with you sometime in person.
21:35 < maaku> But there will always be a frontier.
21:39 < maaku> In any case, I only brought that up because IF you take that as a goal worth pursuing, a mining-claim-tax would be the perfect way of funding common, shared infrastructure, security, and emergency services. So georgism (government funded through a single property tax) seems like a very relevant thing.
21:39 < fenn> we've somehow managed to preserve the freedom to travel on the seas, in a way that is far more free than travel on land
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21:39 < fenn> you aren't confined to a single shipping lane from which you are penalized if you leave it
21:40 < fenn> i could easily see a situation developing where some company has claimed an asteroid for mining carbon, so you're not allowed to stop there to fill your tanks with water
21:40 < fenn> just "NO TRESSPASSING" signs everywhere
21:41 < fenn> even though it's essentially undeveloped wilderness
21:42 < fenn> north dakota has no fences and it seems to have worked out well enough
21:45 < fenn> there's two theories of law, one where you aren't allowed to do some things without being punished after the fact, and one where you _are_ allowed to do anything for a fair price
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21:53 < fenn> property rules vs liability rules
21:54 < fenn> i prefer liability rules because it's impossible to plan in the face of property rules. the property owner may simply decline to negotiate with you, and then you're utterly screwed
21:55 < fenn> whereas, you can look up the fine for violating the rules, and plan around that
21:55 < maaku> fenn: my model is in the latter. mining-claim holders have no ultimate right to say no
21:56 < maaku> because you can out-bid them on the property-tax market and take the claim
21:56 < maaku> but I think this is the wrong venue to discuss this
21:56 < fenn> ok
--- Log closed Wed Oct 02 00:00:27 2019