--- Log opened Thu Oct 03 00:00:28 2019
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00:50 < nsh> wouldn't a sun synchronous orbit describe a lemniscate per year?
00:51  * nsh thinks about lagrange point scaffolding (iteratively populate the solar system with more and more semistable L points)
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07:28 < lsneff> maaku: Ah, that makes sense
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08:07 < docl> fenn: each launch causes orbit to go from circular to slightly less circular/lower, but the ion thrusters restore it to the original vector.
08:08 < docl> if you had a large enough thruster bank you could accelerate nonstop and use the tube continuously from launch sites around the world, but we want to start small
08:23 < lsneff> Has anyone read this post-analysis of the drexler/smalley debate? https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/b8eSA5eZ/Reality%2C%20fantasy%20and%20civility%20in%20molecular%20assemblers.pdf
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09:27 < docl> http://www.softmachines.org/wordpress/?p=70 has links to 3 PDFs of a debate where Philip Moriarty defends a Drexler/Frietas proposal. Late 2004/early 2005
09:28 < docl> I looked him up and here is his site: https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/physics/people/philip.moriarty
09:29 < docl> https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/~ppzpjm/Frontiers-Nano-Ver1-1-May2014.pdf looks like it may be a cool intro to the topic, with 10 years hindsight (2014)
09:50 < maaku> lsneff: strange that article doesn't mention the Merkle-Freitas minimal toolset patent, which basically invalidated a lot of Smalley's arguments through proof-by-example
09:52 < maaku> http://www.molecularassembler.com/Papers/MinToolset.pdf
09:54 < lsneff> Fascinating, hadn't seen that paper before
09:54 < maaku> then you have some reading to do: http://www.molecularassembler.com/Nanofactory/Publications.htm
09:55 < maaku> and here's a small talk they gave on that approach : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=705raszSLGA
09:55 < lsneff> Looking through the list, I've probably read about 1/3 of them
09:55 < lsneff> thanks for the resource
09:56 < lsneff> So, did they actually make the tools in that toolset?
09:57 < lsneff> I don't think they mention it in that paper
09:58 < lsneff> I see that they mention how to make the tools without the tools existing in the first place  though
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10:07 < maaku> I don't think they tried. You could chemically construct the tools, but they're pretty useless without having mechanical control over their trajectories.
10:09 < lsneff> I suppose that's where dna nanomachines would come into play. Somehow bond a tooltip to a computer controlled 3d-printer-like self-assembling dna structure and then go from there
10:09 < maaku> I think Drexler's protein-block 3d printing idea for 1st generation fabs is the best approach. You could imagine making protein bases which have attachment points for these tooltips in order to bootstrap then 2nd generation.
10:09 < maaku> Yeah, jinx
10:10 < maaku> kanzure is working on large, inexpensive DNA synthesis which is very relevant to that approach
10:12 < lsneff> I thought it was already pretty easy to synthesis (mostly) arbitrary dna?
10:14 < lsneff> Ah, they only go up to about 10k base pairs
10:14 < maaku> It's easy to replicate DNA. It's expensive and slow to synthesize new DNA.
10:14 < lsneff> Ah, I see
10:14 < maaku> And yeah, error rates make it difficult to go beyond a few thousand base pairs
10:15 < lsneff> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/synthesis/notes/
10:15 < lsneff> printing dna?
10:16 < maaku> Yes. Use ink-jet technology to deposit the necessary enzymes in droplets to get directed assembly of DNA strands
10:20 < lsneff> So, before even bootstrapping the molecular assembler, better dna synthesis needs to be invented
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10:24 < maaku> Maybe. It would certainly make things easier. You could probably get by with existing tools, it would just be a lot more expensive and labor-intensive.
10:25 < lsneff> I see
10:26 < maaku> The genes representing protein building blocks could probably be synthesized by existing labs, and inserted into bacteria to create little biofactories. Use existing processes to purify the outputs.
10:28 < maaku> The protein blocks would have light-activated end caps which bind with each other. Use a laser to target individual blocks and activate their caps, then bathe the surface in the type of block you want to mount at that point.
10:28 < lsneff> Seems to me like someone with a lot of money just needs to hire a bunch of scientists, and put together all the pieces that already exist together
10:29 < maaku> Then clean the surface of unbound blocks, scan with an AFM & laser activate, rinse & repeat
10:29 < maaku> yeah well sadly this channel doesn't have anyone with enough money... yet
10:30 < maaku> Or plan B is to make DNA printing really really cheap, which would let you do a bunch of stuff with DNA origami and such that would make this whole process a lot simpler and less labor intensive
10:31 < maaku> Really I should say that's plan A. plan B is someone with $$$ magically happens along.
10:31 < maaku> People with $$$ are commonplace. We know a few. People with $$$ and vision, less so.
10:31 < lsneff> Well, if you make dna printing really, really cheap, then you can just do plan A because you'll have a lot of money
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11:57 < kanzure> i am of the opinion that molecular biology is sufficient molecular nanotechnology for now
11:57 < kanzure> so let's just use dna and protein engineering and move on with it
11:59 < maaku> kanzure: diamandoid materials give you 3-4 orders of magnitude better performance. that's non-trivial
12:00 < maaku> not to mention easier to design and work with
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12:06 < lsneff> Plus, nanofactory is just a cool word
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12:26 < nsh> better performance at what?
12:34 < maaku> nsh: strength/weight ratios (100x), operational speed (1,000,000,000x), storage density, compression and tensile strength, bond strengths
12:36 < lsneff> You can make structural materials with a very high compute and storage density
12:36 < lsneff> Yes, what maaku said
12:37 < maaku> what's remarkable about biology is what you can manage to pull off with it at all, not its performance limits
12:37 < maaku> we stopped building mechanical tools with bone thousands of years ago for a reason
12:46 < nsh> oh right, for structures
12:47 < nsh> yeah i wouldn't use proteins for structures
12:47 < nsh> for "doing stuff" they're pretty great though
12:48 < lsneff> Like what?
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12:55 < lsneff> Obviously they are, not denying that
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14:26 < nsh> well, biochemistry for the most part
14:26 < nsh> which is as far as we know the most sophisticated manipulation of things are that scale
14:27 < nsh> and as far as we don't know a few neat things too
14:42 < lsneff> Totally, yeah
14:43 < lsneff> I think we'd probably be able to design nanomachines that outperformed proteins, but it likely be difficult
14:56 < kanzure> lsneff: have you used https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer
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15:41 < fenn> wood is still in common use as a construction material
15:41 < fenn> (bad idea IMHO)
15:43 < fenn> bamboo is almost cheating
15:43 < fenn> if only we could get it to grow into the shapes we want
15:47 < docl> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwgrAH-IMOk
15:47 < docl> .title
15:47 < EmmyNoether> Finite element method - Gilbert Strang - YouTube
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16:11 < lsneff> kanzure: I have, yes
16:12 < nmz787> lsneff: in practice only a few hundred bases of DNA are ever synthesized with today's commercial methods
16:12 < nmz787> after that it's assembly of those into longer chunks, and then assembling those chunks into even longer chunks
16:13 < mrdata-> how do you avoid error
16:13 < nmz787> they don't really, they just filter out the erroneous sequences after roughly 100 to 300 bases
16:13 < nmz787> based on sequence length
16:14 < nmz787> errors are usually deletions, or failure to extend after a certain number of synthesis cycles
16:15 < nmz787> the errors are of a different source than in polymerase based copying, since the chemistry happening is much different
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17:14 < mrdata-> https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8xwvng/scientists-engineered-bacteria-to-produce-huge-amounts-of-psilocybin
17:16 < fenn> you wouldn't download a magic mushroom
17:22 < nmz787> fenn: why not?
17:23 < nmz787> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S109671761930309X
17:23 < nmz787> .title
17:23 < EmmyNoether> Client Request Error
17:23 < lsneff> you wouldn't download a car
17:24 < nmz787> I think that's heresy in this chatroom
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17:46 < mrdata-> just as you said heresy, my irc client spat this out: * Disconnected (Invalid argument)
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19:11 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB0kjomZ-K8
19:11 < kanzure> this was taken down because people were outraged that it was too positive
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19:19 < kanzure> https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/gene-editing-video-stirs-talk-designer-babies-ethics-66009905
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19:36 < lsneff> I can't figure out why people have such a visceral reaction to genetic modification.
19:37 < lsneff> I can understand being worried about the possible negative effects of widespread genetic modification, but I can't understand being afraid of it.
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22:41 < maaku> fenn: mostly because wood is cheap. wood does not structurally outperform present day synthetic materials, let alone what could be done with atomic control.
22:41 < maaku> but it's cheap, so we use it
22:42 < maaku> but atomicly precise manufacturing would have the same underlying cost as growing wood, or bamboo, or potatoes.
22:50 < fenn> typically the energy required to manufacture something goes up with the precision
22:51 < fenn> why is atomically precise manufacturing exempt from this trend?
22:55 < fenn> see graph at end of http://lowtechmagazine.com/2009/06/embodied-energy-of-digital-technology.html
22:57 < fenn> er, ~5 pages down
22:57 < maaku> fenn: why do you think bamboo is not an example of atomically precise manufacturing?
22:57 < fenn> because it's not atomically precise
22:57 < fenn> it's a pile of atomically precise parts, sure
22:57 < maaku> It is, to the same level of necessary detail
22:58 < maaku> So would structural materials, which would e.g. be fibers of diamandoid material with various smart components interleaved, e.g. piezoelectric or photovoltaic electric generators.
22:59 < maaku> The small components would be precise, but larger structures might not need any more precision than nylon or carbon fiber structures do today
23:00 < maaku> But even if you needed full atomic precision, you would get the benefit of being able to amortize cost over many generations of product as you recyle and reuse parts
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--- Log closed Fri Oct 04 00:00:29 2019