--- Log opened Sun Nov 10 00:00:03 2019
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02:05 < fenn> maybe we can get some sort of embryo gap out of this. "russia is pulling ahead in genetic engineering, mister president!"
02:08 < fenn> too bad it's not china
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02:27 < fenn> "Issuing permission to edit the human genome in clinical practice would now be a premature and irresponsible measure," the Russian Ministry of Health said in a press statement
02:31 < fenn> antonio regalado seems rather selfishly oblivious to the consequences of his digging into jiankui he's scientific contacts, in the modern witch hunt era
02:32 < fenn> so maybe you get a not very interesting gossip-level article out of it, and someone's entire career is destroyed
02:32 < fenn> that's a net loss for humanity
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06:11 < kanzure> fenn: antonio seems to think inciting these witch hunts is a net positive (he likes to tell the story of icarus and flying too close to the sun)
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09:49 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20090210041125/alexepstein.com/articles/bioethics.htm
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11:24 < TheHoliestRoger> kanzure: can you check your PMs when you have a sec
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13:35 < kanzure> this article proposes using frozen embryos as a way around the rule against perpetuities http://scholarship.law.tamu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1087&context=facscholar
13:51 < kanzure> https://www.jefftk.com/p/perpetuities-via-frozen-embryos
13:59 < kanzure> http://sci-hub.tw/https://www.jstor.org/stable/20782199
14:08 < archels> https://youtu.be/Xd2c4pZKE5g?t=146
14:08 < archels> how did they get this shot?
14:08 < archels> it's Russia, so figures they told the camera guy to climb into the big tube. nothink can go wronk
14:11 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_against_perpetuities
14:11 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illustrations_of_the_rule_against_perpetuities
14:20 < kanzure> andytoshi: so i'm looking at a business model where someone pays $50k to store their sperm for 300 years and in 300 years it funds 10 children to be spawned off and pays for all their necessities.
14:20 < andytoshi> kanzure: so, perpetuities laws show up in finance a lot. this is one reason you can't buy e.g. 100-year call options
14:20 < andytoshi> also see https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-09/meet-the-spy-11-kids-with-250-billion-riding-on-their-lives which gmax pointed me to
14:20 < kanzure> does alcor let you "take it with you"
14:20 < andytoshi> kanzure: re "does alcor let you take stuff with you", the answer is no
14:20 < andytoshi> ultimately because of perpetuities law
14:20 < kanzure> hmm.
14:21 < andytoshi> though as your article hints, if you have good lawyers and appropriate trust structures you may be able to work around this
14:21 < kanzure> well, surely a company could be allowed to operate for hundreds of years under contract law
14:21 < andytoshi> look for "unsocial people with good lawyers" :P
14:21 < andytoshi> kanzure: yes, because the company is always owned by living people
14:21 < kanzure> of note is that "rule against perpetuities" might be bypassed by having a frozen embryo actually. but if this was true i'm not sure why it wouldn't already be a huge business model.
14:21 < andytoshi> a company cannot be constructed which operates autonomously with no owners for hundreds of years
14:21 < andytoshi> right, so, i'm not done tha article yet
14:22 < andytoshi> but my guess would be that roe v wade prevents use of embryos as "living beings" for the purpose of perpetutity law?
14:22 < kanzure> so a company is fine, and the customer trusts that the company will keep its promise to distribute funds in a certain way in the future, but if a trust is created then suddenly the rule against perpetuities is triggered?
14:22 < andytoshi> kanzure: if the trusts' interests are dead people yes
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14:22 < andytoshi> but if there is a company who is the sole interest in the trust
14:22 < andytoshi> and users are just trusting the company to do the right thing 300 years in the future
14:22 < andytoshi> that would be fine, legally, thuogh nobody would go for it
14:23 < kanzure> i think some people might go for it
14:23 < kanzure> especially if the overall cost was low
14:23 < andytoshi> i mean, this is how alcor works
14:24 < andytoshi> they also cannot promise to resurrect you, even if they were capable
14:24 < kanzure> specifically the product is frozen sperm and paying for a child in 200 years
14:24 < kanzure> is what i'm playing around with
14:24 < andytoshi> they just say "we'll make a best effort to obey your wishes, but you can't bind us to it in any way"
14:24 < andytoshi> ok, i am only on page 19 of this article, out of 59
14:24 < andytoshi> and IANAL ofc
14:24 < kanzure> sure sure but it's fun to play one
14:24 < kanzure> which one are you looking at?
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14:25 < kanzure> ah, tamu.edu one
14:26 < andytoshi> the jefftk one
14:26 < kanzure> alcor is being trusted to do the right thing in >300 years, with technology that might not exist, whereas the technology for freezing and thawing sperm is already well developed
14:26 < andytoshi> sure but nobody actually believes that alcor will work
14:26 < andytoshi> people pay them as a way to donating to research
14:26 < andytoshi> and because there are no better options
14:27 < kanzure> "Gametes, Embryos and the Life in Being: The Impact of Reproductive Technology on the Rule Against Perpetuities" https://www.jefftk.com/mccrimmon2000.pdf
14:27 < kanzure> hmm
14:28 < kanzure> so in my version, there's two products- either whole genome sequencing and we store the data promising to synthesize a genome in the future and give you children, or freeze some sperm (or embryos or whatever) with the same intentions.
14:28 < kanzure> the digital version could be priced much lower than the freezing product because the costs of data storage are lower than the costs of frozen biological materials
14:30 < andytoshi> i think this would be exactly as legal as what alcor does
14:30 < kanzure> with the idea of selling the service of child production and childrearing hundreds of years in the future when the payment you started with has ballooned into a fortune that can afford the costs of childcare and child support
14:30 < andytoshi> though alcor also slides under the radar, probably, because they're such a fringe thing
14:31 < kanzure> back to companies: since they owned and operated by living people, they can bypass any of the rules against perpetuities- so why not have a company own the 100 year option and just promise to give the proceeds to whatever person?
14:31 < andytoshi> because the promise would not be legally binding
14:32 < kanzure> i was thinking, if i was just trying to work with the rule against perpetuities for simple inheritance of money, then an on-chain timelock looks like exactly what i want
14:32 < kanzure> because even if it's "illegal" it still works and some court can't break it
14:33 < purpleshift> kanzure, that sounds a bit like smart contracts with ethereum or such, it seems like the only current method to do this kind of thing and it pretty much certainly won't be around for a 100 years =)
14:33 < andytoshi> oh wow, what an idea
14:33 < andytoshi> that's kinda scary. perpetuities laws exist for good social reasons.
14:34 < andytoshi> purpleshift: you can do it with bitcoin. it's just technically difficult
14:34 < andytoshi> well, actually, no, not in a way that will work post-quantum-computers
14:34 < andytoshi> but in principle it's possible
14:34 < kanzure> an on-chain timelock could have some annual stipend and a court can order your trust to distribute the stipend in a certain way, but they can't change the timelock
14:35 < purpleshift> andytoshi, that's why most people don't have influence on the affairs of the living after 50 years or so after their death even if they were very powerful, it's hard to foresee what could happen
14:35 < andytoshi> purpleshift: well, historically some people managed to, or else perpetuities law would not have been created
14:36 < kanzure> why would it be bad to have 100 year bitcoin wealth preservation?
14:37 < purpleshift> andytoshi, yep, hi-phi (a philosophy podcast) did an episode of that, they covered some 1900s era people who managed to extend their influence pretty far
14:37 < andytoshi> kanzure: because it allows the creation of dynasties that outlive states
14:37 < andytoshi> creating effectively unbreakable class boundaries
14:38 < kanzure> but should you be held responsible for bankrupt states?
14:38 < purpleshift> kanzure, do you think bitcoin will exist and be valuable in a 100 years? wouldn't it be safer to set up some kind of a trust or a system that evaluates every few years where that money could most safely be kept?
14:38 < kanzure> purpleshift: i'm not saying it's not risky :)
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15:50 < maaku> <andytoshi> but if there is a company who is the sole interest in the trust
15:50 < maaku> <andytoshi> and users are just trusting the company to do the right thing 300 years in the future
15:50 < maaku> that's how alcor works
15:50 < maaku> and they do let you store stuff, iirc
15:51 < kanzure> "betting that we're morally superior to future generations seems like a bad idea"
15:51 < andytoshi> maaku: oh, i did not realize that they let you store things
15:51 < andytoshi> i would be more willing to bet on my family than on alcor for that
15:53 < maaku> Honestly i don't remember if they actually do that, or if I read some discussion somewhere about people suggesting they do that. A quick google search doesn't resolve it.
15:54 < maaku> But it is true that Alcor isn't promising anything, so there's no perpetuities.
15:54 < andytoshi> yep. their docs are very explicit on this
15:54 < andytoshi> they also can't promise to revive you even if they could
15:54 < andytoshi> just "we'll make a best effort to follow your wishes"
15:56 < maaku> You can wirte any kinds of special requests you want regarding revival, and they are free to ignore them. Their docs are clear about that. But you are betting that since everyone at Alcor is also an Alcor member, they'll vet future employees in an unbroken chain of reliable, invested people into the future.
15:56 < maaku> Who are likely to respect your wishes.
15:57 < maaku> Although I'm having second thoughts about that with all the nonsense going on now re: Pilgeram v Alcor
15:59 < andytoshi> https://www.greatfallstribune.com/story/news/2019/06/07/montana-man-seeking-return-fathers-head-cryonics-foundation-alcor-pilgeram/1360612001/
16:00 < andytoshi> i actually haven't kept up with that; i saw their "please donate to our legal fund" email but didn't even read that link
16:00 < kanzure> maaku: andytoshi was arguing earlier that placing covenants on trust money into the future for future possible descendants should not be done because it creates undue influence over the future
16:01 < andytoshi> well, more specifically, i said that it imports power imbalances from old societies into new ones
16:01 < andytoshi> and drew analogies to old pharoahs or 16th century popes executing their legal interests (e.g. creating descendants and giving them piles of money) in today's society
16:03 < lsneff> Is alcor a real thing?
16:03 < andytoshi> lsneff: yes. maaku and i are members
16:03 < lsneff> Interesting
16:03 < kanzure> there's also nectome
16:04 < lsneff> Are you confident that they'll be able to revive people given how they preserve them?
16:04 < kanzure> no
16:04 < kanzure> not at all
16:04 < kanzure> nectome focuses on structural preservation in the hopes of future digitization of memory or other characteristics
16:04 < kanzure> and might be a better route than alcor
16:07 < lsneff> Fascinating
16:08 < maaku> nectome has a 0% chance of revival. they're not aiming for that
16:09 < lsneff> They're trying to keep the synaptic map in decent condition?
16:10 < kanzure> and other structural preservation like synaptic protein content
16:11 < lsneff> There are some animals with small enough brains that they can be fully simulated right?
16:11 < lsneff> Like a few hundred neurons
16:14 < kanzure> define fully
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16:18 < lsneff> Ah, nectome is working on that: https://www.statnews.com/2019/01/30/nectome-brain-preservation-redemption/
16:19 < lsneff> C. Elegans
16:21 < kanzure> simulation of neurons is a complex feat and nobody has a complete simulation of a single cell body
16:21 < kanzure> there are various approximations and small models that have been developed (perceptron, hodgkin-huxley model, NEURON/yale thing, etc)
16:22 < lsneff> Ah I see
16:22 < kanzure> in perceptron models, you throw out a lot of information about synaptic plasticity and other cross-neuron cell-cell signaling mechanisms
16:22 < lsneff> I've done some nn work, but just perceptrons
16:22 < kanzure> https://neuron.yale.edu/neuron/
16:24 < lsneff> nectome won't end up preserving the "weights" associated with neurons, correct? Since it's purely structural plus some  additional stuff?
16:25 < kanzure> nectome preserves things like synaptic membrane-bound proteins and nearby protein vesiciles which might communicate significant information about weight
16:26 < kanzure> uh actually, i don't know if they have verified the preservation of synaptic membrane-bound proteins
16:26 < kanzure> but in principle their method does it
16:26 < lsneff> Interesting
16:26 < lsneff> At the very least, their approach seems better than alcor's  imo
16:26 < kanzure> and so does alcor for that matter, although brain turns to mush during thawing or freezing if you screw up the protocol
16:27 < kanzure> and same with nectome- if you screw up the protocol then you mess up the brain matter
16:27 < lsneff> of course
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16:31 < lsneff> Well, it'll be interesting to see where they are 20 years down the line
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16:35 < kanzure> lsneff: nectome was started by the guy who did https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5T81yHkHtI
16:42 < lsneff> well, if he can do that, he must be able to preserve brain structure
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20:39 < kanzure> "In 1990 the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act set up a regulator of fertility clinics and limits were set on the number of families a sperm or egg donor could provide. Sperm donors can provide samples for the creation of up to ten families."
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--- Log closed Mon Nov 11 00:00:04 2019