--- Log opened Sat Nov 30 00:00:23 2019
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07:25 < kanzure> just when i nearly purged the name jaron lanier from memory
07:38 < lsneff> .title http://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/nano-nonsense-25-years-of-charlatanry/
07:38 < EmmyNoether> Nano-nonsense: 25 years of charlatanry   | Locklin on science
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07:52 < lsneff> I'm curious what y'all think of the author ^
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08:18 < kanzure> "Controlled modelling of human epiblast and amnion development using stem cells" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1535-2
08:22 < jrayhawk> lsneff: https://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/nano-nonsense-25-years-of-charlatanry/#comment-914 nailed it
08:25 < lsneff> jrayhawk: Indeed, that comment does
08:33 < lsneff> I feel like the problem is that critics are really stuck on the idea of self-replication.
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08:45 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=cc9ab515 Bryan Bishop: add fda link >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/fda/
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10:10 < kanzure> https://gitlab.ethz.ch/digitalbioethics/crispr-sentiment-analysis
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11:53 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=183842ef Bryan Bishop: skin color >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/genetic-modifications/
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12:37 < kanzure> "Even though the UK population had come a long way toward accepting human genetic engineering, ironically only 51 percent of those polled supported the use of genetic technologies to increase the efficiency of food production. In other words, a full 25 percent more Britons support genetically modifying their children than do genetically altering a kumquat."
12:51 < kanzure> "Heritability and inevitabilit" https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1601-5223.1986.tb00655.x
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14:44 < nsh> short-term 'efficiency increases' in food productivity have historically quite often some at the cost of long-term deterioration of soil quality or resulted in other externalities that have require (and still require in many cases) arduous and expensive corrections
14:45 < nsh> sans being informed by deep ecology it is not just facile but actively destructively stupid to favour technologies that result in immediate yield increases
14:46 < nsh> (of course, those dissenting are almost always even worse informed, but that doesn't mean that a tendency towards conservatism and rigorous long-term trials isn't a sensible default)
14:47 < nsh> "A little learning is a dangerous thing ; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring."
14:48 < nsh> ("There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again.)
14:49 < kanzure> "Even though the UK population had come a long way toward accepting human genetic engineering, ironically only 51 percent of those polled supported the use of genetic technologies to increase the efficiency of food production. In other words, a full 25 percent more Britons support genetically modifying their children than do genetically altering a kumquat."
14:49 < kanzure> oh
14:49 < kanzure> am i repeating myself
14:49 < kanzure> am i repeating myself
14:56 < nsh> kumquat is a cool word
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15:25 < kanzure> paradox of the precautionary principle: "According to the principle, since the principle itself is dangerous, we should take precautionary measures to prevent the use of the precautionary principle."
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15:44 < nsh> sophomore philosophising :)
15:45 < nsh> you have to eat 50 of today's [UK] supermarket tomatoes to get the nutrition of a single tomato from 1960
15:45 < nsh> there exist false economies
15:45 < nsh> they are measurable
15:45 < nsh> we can reasonable about them as objective rationalists
15:45 < nsh> nothing about this is difficult except accepting it
15:45 < nsh> i can only beseech you to try.
15:46 < nsh> (slightly made-up factoid but true in in principle if not exactly quantitatively)
15:46 < nsh> *reason
15:50 < kanzure> "Female sunfish can produce more eggs than any other known vertebrate,[3] up to 300,000,000 at a time.[4] "
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15:52 < nsh> that's a lot of eggs
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15:58 < nsh> interesting: https://driving.ca/auto-news/news/electric-crate-motors-make-turning-your-gas-car-into-an-ev-easy?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1571762456
15:58 < nsh> sorry for tracking crap
15:58 < nsh> .t https://driving.ca/auto-news/news/electric-crate-motors-make-turning-your-gas-car-into-an-ev-easy?
15:58 < EmmyNoether> Electric 'crate motors' make turning your gas car into an EV easy | Driving
15:59 < nsh> (though i don't think [current at least] economics of car markets make conversion really that viable cost-wise)
15:59 < nsh> good that options are being explored though
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16:41 < kanzure> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/self-interest.en.html
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19:30 < fenn> my ecology is deeper than yours! nyaaa
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20:55 < jrayhawk> it's a fair point. i would've phrased it as "the engineering incentives around food production are so pathological that essentially every 'breakthrough' is actually an unfavorable tradeoff against long-term disease management"
20:55 < jrayhawk> "which is why medical costs are on track to exceed GDP within decades"
21:13 < jrayhawk> hmm. i guess that's less plausible now than it was a decade ago.
21:14 < jrayhawk> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Health_care_cost_rise.svg but just look at how industrious our environmental engineering is
21:14 < jrayhawk> USA #1!
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21:40 < fenn> so we should just forget about enviropig, because "GMO BAD OOGA BOOGA"
21:41 < fenn> it's bad argumentation to equate "all yield increasing technology" with one another
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21:42 < fenn> as long as nature gets no seat at the bargaining table, decisions will continue to be made that favor those with a seat
21:43 < fenn> regardless of their level of awareness
21:57 < jrayhawk> huh, i hadn't looked into the enviropig before. not a lot of phytases in vertebrates, AFAIK.
21:57 < jrayhawk> i wonder if we're about to find out why
22:00 < jrayhawk> engineering with the goal of increasing micronutrient bioavailbility is definitely less horrifying than usual
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--- Log closed Sun Dec 01 00:00:24 2019