--- Log opened Fri Jan 03 00:00:55 2020
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03:46 < phaze> another keyboard kicks the dust
03:46 < phaze> i have 7 functioning wireless mice though!
03:47 < phaze> i wwonder if 7 would go for a dollar on ebay
03:47 < fenn> SNPedia downloaded failed; something's broken somewhere in the bowels of dumpgenerator.py. you'd think it wouldn't be that hard to just download every page title with Special:Export
03:47 < fenn> which i think i will have to do
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04:26 < maaku> phaze: rip the keys out sell them individually
04:27 < phaze> stfi
04:29 < phaze> i went out and bought another one
04:30 < phaze> and have one coming in via amazon t hat has some sort of casing
04:32 < phaze> gel or silicone
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05:19 < kanzure> https://www.wired.com/story/crispr-gene-editing-could-one-day-cut-away-human-pain/
05:22 < kanzure> https://www.quora.com/Do-you-believe-physical-pain-could-be-eliminated-as-you-profess-psychological-suffering-will-cease-to-exist-in-sentient-beings
05:22 < kanzure> https://www.quora.com/How-do-you-break-the-hedonic-treadmill
05:23 < kanzure> https://www.quantamagazine.org/omnigenic-model-suggests-that-all-genes-affect-every-complex-trait-20180620/
05:25 < darsie> I want pain. How else would I know when something's wrong?
05:37 < TMA> actionable pain is good. the other types less so
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05:57 < maaku> Chronic pain is useless and needs to die.
06:03 < kanzure> i'll put it on the TODO list
06:03 < kanzure> conditional activation of certain pain receptors is doable i think
06:04 < kanzure> but there's lots of types of pain and they are all implemented differently..
06:05 < kanzure> i've been trying to find a transhumanist document like "too good to be true- or is it?" or "how good can good get?" but unfortunately most of the literature that our society produces is deeply negative
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06:53 < maaku> kanzure: the gene EPAS1 prevents high-altitude blood-thickening process, and is responsible for the Sherpa people being able to survive in high altitude environments
06:53 < maaku> from https://www.businessinsider.com/160000-year-old-jaw-from-human-ancestor-in-tibet-cave-2019-5
06:54 < maaku> add that to the todo list of crispr enhancements
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07:01 < kanzure> maaku: add it yourself? https://diyhpl.us/wiki/genetic-modifications/
07:01 < kanzure> i think i have the one about a large spleen with PDE10A for diving
07:02 < maaku> cool i didn't know where you were keeping these things
07:02 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=8280ea62 Bryan Bishop: add note about EPAS1 >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/genetic-modifications/
07:02 < kanzure> maaku: thx
07:04 < fenn> when i was researching high altitude adaptations in tibetan people with an eye toward using it in space exploration, i learned that non-tibetans get high altitude sickness and eventually die of it, but tibetans just die suddenly at a higher altitude
07:05 < fenn> i'm not sure that suddenly dying with no warning is actually an improvement, even though it enables living at a higher altitude or lower pressure
07:13 < fenn> i think the "new study" referenced by business insider was from 2014: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature13408
07:13 < fenn> .title
07:13 < EmmyNoether> Altitude adaptation in Tibetans caused by introgression of Denisovan-like DNA | Nature
07:15 < maaku> fenn: afaict tibetans don't die of high altitude sickness. they die of lack of oxygen.
07:15 < fenn> right
07:16 < maaku> whereas many non-tibetans, even experienced climbers, die or are injured by pulmonary problems before oxygen death would do them in
07:17 < maaku> so it seems like a net win, although like scuba divers and their dive computers, you'd want a safety mechanism to let you know when you're reaching safe limits
07:18 < maaku> that said, I've read cases of Sherpas having altitude-induced strokes and stuff. so maybe this is more of a base frequency thing than a hard immunity?
07:22 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=73eb4c2c Bryan Bishop: fix EPAS1 reference >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/genetic-modifications/
07:24 < fenn> "EPAS1 is useful in high altitudes as a short term adaptive response. However, EPAS1 can also cause excessive production of red blood cells leading to chronic mountain sickness that can lead to death and inhibited reproductive abilities. Some mutations that increase its expression are associated with increased hypertension and stroke at low altitude, with symptoms similar to mountain sickness.
07:24 < fenn> Populations living permanently at high altitudes experience selection on EPAS1 for mutations which reduce the negative fitness consequences of excessive red blood cell production."
07:25 < fenn> it also says something about "more elaborate blood vessels" which is probably a different mutation or set of alleles
07:30 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=d1190413 fenn: another ref for EPAS1, this one specifically about hypoxia >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/genetic-modifications/
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08:03 < kanzure> "I think one problem with transhumanism is that many / most transhumanists have a background in computing and AI. If you think we're on the brink of an Intelligence Explosion of machine superintelligence, then you're probably not going to immerse yourself into the minutiae of molecular genetics and biology. Advocacy of what may (simplistically) be called "biological superintelligence" is very ...
08:03 < kanzure> ...much the minority view (https://www.biointelligence-explosion.com/parable.html).  Perhaps the problem is less that transhumanists don't sketch how good things can get - after all, paradise engineering and a "triple S" civilisation of superintelligence, superlongevity and superhappines will be pretty cool. Rather, the problem is _how_ we get there without invoking machine superintelligence as ...
08:03 < kanzure> ...some kind of deus ex machina to solve all our problems. Your kind of expertise in biosciences is unusual among transhumanists."
08:03 < kanzure> .title https://www.biointelligence-explosion.com/parable.html
08:03 < EmmyNoether> Supersentience
08:28 < maaku> .title https://techcrunch.com/2020/01/02/this-particle-accelerator-fits-on-the-head-of-a-pin/
08:28 < EmmyNoether> This particle accelerator fits on the head of a pin - TechCrunch
08:30 < kanzure> .wik ectogenesis
08:30 < EmmyNoether> "Ectogenesis (from the Greek ecto, 'outer,' and genesis) is the growth of an organism in an artificial environment outside the body in which it would normally be found, such as the growth of an embryo or fetus outside the mother's body, or the growth of bacteria outside the [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ectogenesis
08:36 < adlai> maaku: i think you can say hypoxia here, it's not a forbidden word
08:38  * kanzure checks the list
08:38 < kanzure> he's right.
08:39 < adlai> (hupoxia and hippoxia might get you thrown in the river)
08:41  * adlai still wonders whether a triple-blind test for dyslexia could improve educational institutions; something along the lines of "if a double-blind test loses its effectiveness after a sample set has completed N years of academic study, it wasn't blind enough")
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11:01 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance:_The_Future_Is_Better_Than_You_Think
11:02 < adlai> .wik malthus
11:02 < EmmyNoether> "Thomas Robert Malthus FRS (/'mael??s/; 13/14 February 1766 - 23 December 1834) was an English cleric and scholar, influential in the fields of political economy and demography. /  In his 1798 book An Essay on the Principle of Population, Malthus observed that an [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthus
11:11 < kanzure> because agricultural engineering was impossible or something?
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11:44 < adlai> the malthusian warning can be distilled thus: although industry improves, collective greed as exemplified by agricultural societies' supremacy over the nomads leads to bouts of starvation
11:45 < adlai> he never said that you can't stack the monastery ceiling-high with the coffins of their enemies.
12:09 < kanzure> i think his concerns would have been solvable if he recommended that families buy food futures when they plan to have children (or once they actually have children)
12:10 < kanzure> well plus he would need to be a techno-optimist, that agricultural engineering is a thing that could conceivably exist
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16:25 < kanzure> .title http://web.archive.org/web/20030223014614/http://research.mednet.ucla.edu/pmts/rexcerpt.htm
16:25 < EmmyNoether> Redesigning HUMANS by Gregory Stock
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19:28 < kanzure> "Germinal choice technology and the human future (Gregory Stock)" https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/S1472-6483(10)62201-8
19:28 < kanzure> (2005)
19:28 < kanzure> "Consider deaf parents who wish to select embryos destined for deafness. Difficult as it may be for someone with normal hearing to accept this choice, preventing it would be dangerously close to coercive eugenics targeting the handicapped. Germinal choice will force us to confront our attitudes about what constitutes a meaningful life, our responsibilities to others, our prejudices, and what ...
19:28 < kanzure> ...we mean when we say that all potential lives are equal and deserve protection."
19:28 < kanzure> "As germinal enhancements become feasible, the mass of humanity is bound to insist on enriching its children's natural endowments. Strong voices may oppose this, but most of the warnings about eugenics and human manufacture will flow from those with the talent and position to voice them - the elite with the most to lose. After all, their children are the ones who will ultimately suffer ...
19:28 < kanzure> ...from the arrival of a wild genetic bazaar where all parents can gain similar talents and potentials for their children."
19:28 < kanzure> Today's intellectual elite might not want to live in a world as aggressive, competitive, and uncontrolled as the one that would emerge from universal access to potent GCT, so their distaste for the technology may deepen once its true implications become clear. Such resistance, however, would be reminiscent of the fears of earlier elites who liked society the way it was and wanted to retain ...
19:28 < kanzure> ...their advantages. The wellborn were right to fear the political reforms that broke down class divisions, and today's new elite should wince as well, because if the God-given gifts of talent and intelligence that have raised them above the throngs are laid out for everyone to grab, their children's futures will not look nearly as bright."
19:28 < kanzure> "That concern about preserving the ideals of an egalitarian society and preventing the formation of a genetic elite (Krimsky, 2000) inspires much of the philosophical distaste for GCT among intellectuals is ironic, both because they are among the elite and because any meaningful effort to block these technologies will compound rather than alleviate such biological advantages."
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22:26 < fenn> i thought we weren't allowed to say that "the elite" were genetically superior
22:27 < fenn> if there's already a genetically superior elite, what the hell does "the formation of a genetic elite" mean then?
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--- Log closed Sat Jan 04 00:00:56 2020