--- Log opened Tue Apr 14 00:00:51 2020 00:05 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e0a:56d:9090:ad0e:52f7:2635:5829] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:07 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-114-73-160.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:10 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e0a:56d:9090:ad0e:52f7:2635:5829] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:44 -!- filipepe [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wexiglobztbwuszi] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 00:58 < fenn> kanzure re "a hash-chain Merkle root of database state" isn't that what git does 00:59 < fenn> i guess he wants something with a query language 00:59 < fenn> hard to believe this doesn't exist yet 01:07 -!- Urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:39 -!- MarkOtaris [mark-otari@wikimedia/Mark-Otaris] has quit [Quit: killed] 01:50 -!- MarkOtaris [mark-otari@wikimedia/Mark-Otaris] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:17 < fenn> .tw http://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1245791851342229504 02:17 < saxo> I am realizing more and more how unusual, unscientific, unmedical, and counterproductive it is for WHO to select the name #COVID19 and reject SARS2. In fact it would be most consistent with medical practice to just call it SARS. Here's why... (1/n) (@michaelzlin) 02:20 < fenn> also, pluto is a planet 02:43 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e0a:56d:9090:ad0e:52f7:2635:5829] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:08 < darsie> I was wondering if we could make glutaraldehyde preservation in Liberland or so. 03:09 < darsie> On live people. 03:09 < darsie> Or ... if live people could get it there. 03:10 < darsie> I guess it's outlawed in most countries now. 03:12 < darsie> Assisted suicide is only legal for very ill people. But we are healthy and want to extend our lives. 03:14 < fenn> why do you think undoing the effects of glutaraldehyde is more certain than trying to live until better healthcare becomes available? 03:15 < fenn> i tried to convince the guy at nectome to research reversible aldehyde systems but he wasn't having any of it 03:17 < fenn> or alternatively you are using a very strange definition of "live" and should reconsider word choices 03:18 < fenn> if all cryonicists jump into the frozen kool-aid aldehyde vat, who will remain animate to perform the necessary research to make use of their frozen bodies? 03:19 < darsie> I'm after mind uploading. 03:20 < darsie> I'd consider myself alive in an artificial brain. 03:21 < darsie> OTOH, Liberland is not a recognized country, so there may be still be liabilities. 03:22 < fenn> just go to Liberia instead 03:22 < darsie> Nah. 03:22 < fenn> Svalbard? 03:22 < darsie> maybe 03:22 < darsie> What country is that? 03:22 < darsie> Denmark? 03:23 < darsie> Svalbard (/ˈsvɑːlbɑːr/ SVAHL-bar,[3] Urban East Norwegian: [ˈsvɑ̂ːlbɑr] (About this soundlisten); prior to 1925 known as Spitsbergen, or Spitzbergen, Russian: Шпицберген) is a Norwegian archipelago in the Arctic Ocean. 03:23 < fenn> technically Norway but it's under an international agreement that no military presence may exist and anybody can go there, even without a visa 03:24 < fenn> it's the site of a number of archival projects like the doomsday seed bank and the github code archive 03:25 < darsie> But we don't want medical staff performing the procedure be convicted of crimes. 03:25 < fenn> you still need permission from the governor, to make sure people aren't hunting seals or leaking deisel into the ocean 03:25 < fenn> just gotta make it completely automated 03:25 < fenn> the guy who set it up is just a technician, he didn't press the button 03:27 < darsie> That's gonna be tricky. Maybe the uploader can press a button triggering the flushing of blood and administration of glutaraldehyde in 20 minutes, then staff places arterial and venous cannulas ... 03:27 < darsie> and performs anaesthesia. 03:28 -!- Human_G33k [~HumanG33k@62.147.242.8] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:28 < fenn> is that necessary for aldehyde fixation? i thought it was much easier on the perfusion requirements 03:28 < darsie> That's how they did it with rabbits and pigs. 03:29 < fenn> this is just a big IV right? 03:29 < darsie> mhm 03:29 < darsie> two 03:29 < darsie> one in, one out 03:29 < fenn> seems doable with a robot and some computer vision code 03:29 < fenn> it's not like the alcor procedure where they drill holes in your skull etc 03:29 < darsie> They do that? 03:29 < fenn> yeah it's pretty involved 03:30 < darsie> It's a scam. 03:30 < fenn> well... it's badly managed 03:30 < darsie> maybe they didn't know better at first. But they probably didn't wanna know. 03:30 < fenn> there was a very limited talent pool to draw on 03:30 < darsie> Was it community operated or commercially? 03:31 < darsie> at first 03:31 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@62.147.242.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:31 < fenn> alcor took over the maintenance of a number of previously existing organizations 03:31 < darsie> ok 03:32 < fenn> i'm not really the most informed person to talk to about cryonics in this channel 03:32 < darsie> I could bring it up in ##law . 03:32 < fenn> maaku and kanzure know more 03:33 < fenn> if ##law is like any other freenode topical channel you will get a lot of BS and no answers 03:33 < darsie> Countries have different laws for actions taken abroad. 03:34 * fenn mumbles something about renunciation of citizenship and medical cruise ships 03:35 < darsie> renunciation of citizenship is often impossible 03:35 < fenn> maybe you can be a commercial death penalty service provider 03:36 < darsie> A way around could be to switch to a citizenship of a country that allows renunciation. 03:36 < fenn> then your patients just need to get convicted of something really bad 03:36 < darsie> Like assisted suicide? :) 03:36 < fenn> sure, it's a pyramid scheme 03:37 < fenn> you take the blood oath and then you're one of us 03:37 < darsie> I'd like to be stored deep inside a passively cooled asteroid. 03:38 < darsie> That hopefully won't be mined away. 03:41 * fenn tries to sit in a chair and fails 03:41 < darsie> Buckle up 03:42 < TMA> fenn: it is reportedly rather unpleasant to be in a state of citizenshiplessness 03:42 < fenn> TMA: it's not as bad as being a warm corpse 03:42 < darsie> crazy English compound words :) 03:42 < fenn> usually the word is "stateless person" 03:43 < fenn> not that that's any better 03:43 < darsie> Are human brains state machines? 03:44 < TMA> fenn: If I were a warm corpse I will no longer be I, which makes the whole good/bad point moot (if there is no I there is no distinction of good/bad with respect to that non-existent I) 03:45 < TMA> [in layman's terms: TMA-warm-corpse is not TMA-good nor TMA-bad, as there is no longer any TMA to decide on the good/bad dichotomy] 03:46 < fenn> something's broken in your cognition if you can't reason about whether it's better to be alive vs dead 03:47 < TMA> fenn: you do not see it: I can't find a difference between 'cold dead' and 'warm dead', not between 'dead' and 'alive' 03:48 < fenn> cold-dead leads to more life-like possible futures, warm-dead does not 03:48 < fenn> do i need to explain the whole cryonics idea? 03:50 < fenn> .wik cryonics 03:50 < saxo> "Cryonics (from Greek: κρύος kryos meaning 'cold') is the low-temperature freezing (usually at −196 °C or −320.8 °F or 77.1 K) and storage of a human corpse or severed head, with the speculative hope that resurrection may be possible in the future." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics 03:54 < fenn> oh, right. the wikipedia war on transhumanism 03:55 < fenn> god what a biased article 05:06 < nsh> (corpses have no i-am-ness as we are used to it) 05:06 < nsh> (well, after some time at least) 05:25 -!- RickSanchez6497 [~Finn@95.163.163.118] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:27 -!- RickSanchez6497 [~Finn@95.163.163.118] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Leaving"] 05:57 < kanzure> fenn: yes, someone replied with "git" 05:57 < kanzure> fenn: i also want unforgeability though... and i think that can only be achieved by timestamping a hash of the latest state into the bitcoin blockchain. 05:58 < kanzure> which puts a floor on the cost of making a forgery 05:59 < nsh> most databases are centralised though, so the notion of unforgability is underspecified without a distribution of state between mutually non(entirely)trusting actors 05:59 < nsh> which is what i meant to say in the other channel but couldn't be bothered to formulate the thought 06:02 < kanzure> well, you could use a hardware security model to sign off on database state updates 06:11 < nsh> i'm not questioning the solutions 06:11 < nsh> just the setting of the problem 06:11 < nsh> in what contexts are people not 'just' trusting the database management software to be the arbiter of truth, veracity and historicity 06:11 < nsh> i agree that is suboptimal even though it is convenient 06:12 < nsh> but i can't think of particular use-cases 06:12 < nsh> i suppose if you had some regulatory requirement to be able to prove correctness of database state 06:13 < nsh> but correct isn't even in the vocabulary of most software development and administration environments yet 06:13 < nsh> there's just this loose proxy of 'working' [sufficiently] 06:21 < kanzure> s/model/module 06:21 -!- RickSanchez6497 [~Finn@95.163.163.118] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:25 -!- RickSanchez6497 [~Finn@95.163.163.118] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:50 -!- potatope [sid139423@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qxhyyjcqlvztlxsq] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:50 -!- potatope [sid139423@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rolszfxqvrlcqvnd] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:50 -!- cannedprimates_ [sid16585@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vkbnpotpamdfybwx] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:50 -!- cannedprimates_ [sid16585@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-quorvioiyhpbgpgd] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:21 < kanzure> still thinking about a migration https://github.com/kanzure/diyhpluswiki/pull/92 07:21 < kanzure> i think it would be better to make this content more accessible... but sort of sad, end of an era i guess. 07:22 < kanzure> maybe i should just ask for a disclaimer at the end of the files linking back to the ol' diyhpl.us/wiki for its years of service hosting totally off-topic bitcoin transcripts 07:39 < kanzure> hm, another substantive reply to my vaults work (from february though?) https://github.com/cgtf/draft-crypto-assets-security-considerations/issues/3 07:42 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@172.58.19.12] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:00 < kanzure> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vcgtf-crypto-assets-security-considerations-05 08:17 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:31 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:57 < docl_> severed heads have I-am-ness, it just goes away very quickly if you don't freeze them or put them on life support 08:59 -!- docl_ is now known as docl 09:10 < fenn> experimentally verified 09:15 < TMA> {{cite}} 09:26 < fenn> i thought it was lavoisier: https://www.damninteresting.com/lucid-decapitation/ 09:26 < fenn> strangely wikipedia says nothing about this 09:30 < nsh> it goes away when you freeze them too; it's just possible it might come back again 09:30 < nsh> (as is the case nocturnally in deep stage sleep) 09:30 < nsh> (or whenever you do that) 09:31 < fenn> sleep is totally different from anesthesia or unconsciousness 09:31 < fenn> time seems to pass instantly in the latter two 09:31 < nsh> very few people perceive the passage of time in deep stage sleep 09:31 < nsh> only advanced practitioners of meditation afaik 09:32 < nsh> we perceive time due to REM and light sleep stages 09:32 < fenn> after waking you "know" that time has passed 09:32 < nsh> this is the case with anaesthesia and unconsciousness too 09:32 < nsh> except perhaps concussion 09:32 < nsh> but there's some ambiguity because of loss of usual function 09:33 < fenn> it may depend on exactly which anesthetic is used 09:35 * nsh nods 09:35 < nsh> also there are reports of awareness during what's considered 'total' medical/surgical anaesthesia 09:36 < nsh> people generally describe being out-of-body but present/aware and in some [anecdotal] cases remember fragments of conversation [anecdotally] confirmed by surgeons/anaesthetics/nurses 09:37 < fenn> you didn't mention the interesting bit.. that the conversations occurred in different rooms that should have been outside the patient's range of sight/hearing 09:37 < nsh> ah, didn't recall that 09:37 < nsh> but not too surprising 09:37 < fenn> because they're busy floating around being a ghost 09:38 < nsh> my current supposition is that the human body acts as a consciousness focussing and filtering device 09:38 < fenn> looking at the dust and trinkets on the tops of bookshelves etc 09:38 < nsh> and that (apersonal, nonhuman) consciousness is just a property of physics/vacuum 09:38 < fenn> that's just, like, your opinion, man 09:38 < nsh> sure :) 09:39 < nsh> but it is supported by some experiences which are even more anecdotal than the ones described above 09:47 < fltrz> do you guys really buy that crap? 09:48 < fenn> no not really 09:48 < fenn> nsh however is a kook extraordinaire 09:48 < fenn> i won't even attempt to paraphrase 09:52 * TMA was mainly after the experimental verification of the "or put them on life support" part or "if you don't freeze them" part 09:52 < fenn> oh, i think that's extrapolated from dog experiments 09:59 < fenn> i haven't watched any of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experiments_in_the_Revival_of_Organisms 09:59 < fenn> "According to some scientists who claim to have seen the experiments in the film, the severed dog head only survived for a few minutes" 11:07 < TMA> from a more practical standpoint for a person still living: it is the birch pollen season again. Is there a simple way to prepare a "pollen vaccine"? 11:12 -!- Urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:12 < lsneff> I’m sure many of you have seen this: 11:13 < lsneff> .title https://www.wolframphysics.org/visual-summary/dark/ 11:13 < saxo> Visual Summary of the Wolfram Physics Projects 12:15 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:15 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:02 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jfdcyildyxwzbimq] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:04 < docl> apparently takes 3 seconds or so for rats to lose consciousness https://www.livescience.com/15264-brain-death-decapitation.html 13:04 < docl> .title 13:04 < saxo> Brain May Live on After Decapitation | Live Science 13:16 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jfdcyildyxwzbimq] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:19 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kkkxveefkoubsrev] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:01 < docl> "In both awake and anesthetized rats, the EEG went dead about 17 seconds after decapitation — though the researchers noted that it was at a low enough level to suggest a lack of consciousness within 3.7 seconds. Then they noticed something strange: About a minute after decapitation, a slow, large electrical wave roiled through the rats' brains." 14:02 < docl> "Even after the wave of death, the researchers wrote, the brain cells could still theoretically rally if resupplied with oxygen and glucose, the sugar that drives the brain. As evidence, the researchers point to the brain cells taken from deceased humans living on in the lab, as well as to a 1981 study published in the journal Stroke in which scientists saw electrical activity return to brain cells aft 14:02 < docl> er 15 minutes of oxygen deprivation." 15:31 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-114-73-160.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:36 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:49 -!- filipepe [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tbsdukdkxymshjyi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:50 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:44 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e0a:56d:9090:ad0e:52f7:2635:5829] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45 -!- filipepe [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tbsdukdkxymshjyi] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20:42 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@172.58.19.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:22 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kkkxveefkoubsrev] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 23:43 < fenn> https://www.quantamagazine.org/why-is-the-microbiome-important-in-some-animals-but-not-others-20200414/ --- Log closed Wed Apr 15 00:00:52 2020