--- Log opened Mon Apr 27 00:00:06 2020
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06:36 < nsh> moderately terrifying: https://twitter.com/dwallacewells/status/1254444837186740225
06:36 < nsh> (thread)
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09:34 < lsneff> .title https://vimeo.com/71278954
09:34 < saxo> Vimeo / 403 Forbidden
09:34 < lsneff> "Bret Victor - The Future of Programming"
09:35 < lsneff> Really recommend watching this
09:35 < lsneff> Kind of a depressing talk
09:52 < L29Ah> > 32 minutes
09:52 < L29Ah> nothx
09:52 < L29Ah> is there a text version?
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10:04 < lsneff> Here's a transcription: https://glamour-and-discourse.blogspot.com/p/the-future-of-programming-bret-victor.html
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12:23 < L29Ah> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21454572/
12:30 < fenn> the actual "future of programming" stuff doesn't start until 25 minutes or so, the rest is a history summary
12:31 < fenn> tl;dw it's "parallel computing"
12:32 < L29Ah> damn methylene blue has a half-life of 2 hours
12:33 < fenn> it's an oxidative radical generator right? probably for the best that it's short acting
12:33 < fenn> lsneff: here's something i haven't really seen much talk about elsewhere http://web.media.mit.edu/~lieber/Your-Wish-Intro.html
12:34 < L29Ah> scavenger, also modifies mitochondrial function and seems to do a plethora of nice stuff in vitro
12:34 < fenn> "Your Wish is My Command:
12:34 < fenn> Programming by Example"
12:36 < lsneff> fenn: Oh, that's interesting. I'm not sure I'm onboard, but I think all new ideas for programming are worth looking into.
12:37 < lsneff> Often, programming isn't about things that have already happened and already have examples, but things that don't yet exist.
12:37 < lsneff> Maybe I'm misunderstanding the concept
12:38 < fenn> since bret victor is a bigshot UI expert, i expected the talk to be about the human interface of programming
12:38 < fenn> in henry lieberman's system you make new examples to give to the system
12:38 < fenn> i haven't read it, sorry
12:39 < fenn> it's more like "teaching" than showing a neural net a zillion photographs
12:41 < fenn> i guess the closest thing in common use is test driven development
12:43 < lsneff> Ah interesting, okay.
12:43 < lsneff> I'll think more about that
12:44 < lsneff> Of all the evolutionary pathways of computing, I think it's a shame that independent systems being able to communicate very easily didn't really happen.
12:44 < lsneff> The internet of course, but there's so many protocols on top of protocols.
12:45 < lsneff> Json on http2 on tcp on udp
12:46 < lsneff> And if your application needs to communicate to a library written in another language, or even a different version of the same language, it's equally complex.
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13:33 < fenn> unix pipes are ok
13:34 < fenn> and you can pipe over netcat or ssh
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14:11 < lsneff> Well, you gotta come up with a protocol of sorts, and (de)serialize on each end.
14:11 < lsneff> It’s complex and fragile.
14:15 < lsneff> What should matter is the data, not how it the data is formatted or sent.
14:22 < TMA> sadly, there is no _the_ data even in simple cases
14:24 < lsneff> Wasm interface types are an interesting step towards this
14:24 < lsneff> They’ll be able to have wasm modules share rich data without constraining the representation.
14:24 < TMA> yes, standards are awesome. and there are so many to choose from
14:25 < lsneff> They’re not a standard really, since the languages can store data however they want
14:28 < TMA> I was talking of wasm vs. non-wasm
14:29 < lsneff> Oh, sure
14:29 < lsneff> Yeah, wasm is a standard
14:30 < TMA> standards (the useful ones at least) keep their internal consistency. the problem arises with things that are out of scope for them
14:33 < TMA> an then you throw in more standards to tackle the boundary -- ASN.1, XML (with DTDs, xml schemas, relaxng schemas, WSDL (and other WS-*), xmlrpc), s-expressions, fixed-length records in EBCDIC, ...
14:34 < TMA> and there is always an impedance mismatch/leaky abstraction.
14:39 < TMA> on an unrelated note: sometimes, I wonder how strong is the survivor bias in the optimism/pessimism split. I gather that the 'self-help' crowd peddles a panacea of positive thinking and perseverance. I wonder what proportion of persevering optimists never amounted to anything.
14:42 < TMA> I have not chanced upon any paper on that; I don't even know where to start looking. Those sources talking about the survivor bias do take their examples from stock market, where the data are readily available.
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16:37 < lsneff> .title https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ufo-navy-videos-pentagon-unidentied-aerial-phenomena/
16:37 < saxo> Pentagon formally releases 3 Navy videos showing 'unidentified aerial phenomena' - CBS News
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18:54 < kanzure> "multiparticipant coinswap" https://zmnscpxj.github.io/bitcoin/multiswap.html
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19:45 < CaptHindsight> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41596-019-0255-2
19:45 < CaptHindsight> Solid-state nanopore fabrication by automated controlled breakdown
19:46 < CaptHindsight> this is pretty easily done with all open source
19:46 < CaptHindsight> the devs used Windows and some closed SLA printers
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19:55 < CaptHindsight> https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41596-019-0255-2/MediaObjects/41596_2019_255_MOESM5_ESM.zip
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19:58 < CaptHindsight> >85% yield of low-noise nanopores
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20:33 < lsneff> .title https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/tsmc-starts-development-of-2nm-process3nm-already-in-the-works.html
20:33 < saxo> TSMC starts development of 2nm process, 3nm already in the works
20:37 < lsneff> Wish they would switch to transistors per mm^2 instead of the misleading "nm" size
20:38 < CaptHindsight> easy enough to convert to mm^2
20:39 < CaptHindsight> and it's tradition
20:42 < lsneff> Yeah, but the nm sizes they give are wrong haha
20:43 < lsneff> If transistors were really 7nm right now, computers would be able to fit like hundred times more than they currently do.
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23:33 < ptrcmd> lsneff: why are the "nm" sizes misleading?
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23:57 < mrdata> isnt the name about the minimum size of line you can cut?
23:57 < CaptHindsight> yes, feature size
23:58 < CaptHindsight> not gate or transistor size
23:58 < mrdata> so a transistor has to be larger; a gate larger still
23:58 < CaptHindsight> i think he just doesn't like having to divide numbers
--- Log closed Tue Apr 28 00:00:05 2020