--- Log opened Thu Jun 04 00:00:41 2020
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01:47 < nsh> analogies to destroy: neurons as wires
01:47 < nsh> wires are dumb in about 20 ways neurons aren't
01:48 < nsh> may as well be saying "oh boy these clockwork mammals sure do got some hella many springs"
01:51 < nsh> in fact harmonic oscillation is more applicable than connectome-as-current-human-praxis-electric/electronic-network
01:51 < nsh> it's less stupid to talk about brain springs than brain wires
01:56 < fenn> eppur si conduce
02:42 < darsie> After three cups of coffee she was too wired to sleep. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wired
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03:59 < archels> nsh: a metric shitton of engineering goes into certain kinds of electrical cable ;)
04:00 < archels> neurons are "active cables" but they're also the edges in the graph, so I guess that's where that analogy comes from?
04:00 < nsh> which analogy?
04:01 < nsh> neurons are no more edges in a graph than you or i are
04:01 < nsh> that is, you can make some model involving people and graphs and it might be of some use in some reductive idealised system
04:01 < nsh> but it's just telling you about your contrivance, not about people
04:02 < nsh> some properties of graphs can be correlated with some properties of complex systems
04:02 < nsh> but that doesn't mean London has a Euler characteristic
04:03 < nsh> the map is not the territory and the map was drawn with crayons shoved up the nostrils of gerbils half the time
04:25 < archels> yeah but we can't simulate every protein in the brain
04:25 < archels> making the cut of abstraction at the level of neurons is still looking like a pretty reasonable one after 100+ years of neuroscience
04:26 < L29Ah> thanks to that abstraction we have artificial neural networks that solve real-world tasks, even though their notion of a neuron is superficial
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06:15 < lsneff> Superconductivity at room-temperature in graphene: http://crowlspace.com/?p=3329
06:16 < lsneff> There are a number of preprints all converging on the same concept.
06:16 < lsneff> It's happening
06:23 < ffranr> I've posted this before, but a repeat at this time doesn't seem out of place :) : https://www.nature.com/articles/s41565-019-0555-2 "Path towards graphene commercialization from lab to market"
06:23 < lsneff> Right
06:25 < lsneff> In one of the preprints, they stuffed graphene flakes into a hollow ring and flooded it with n-octane or something similar, and then left a current circulating without dissipation for 50 days.
06:29 < ffranr> Which preprint? First on the list?
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06:32 < ffranr> found it: "Superconductivity above 500 K in conductors made by bringing n-alkane into contact with graphite"
06:33 < fenn> .title https://arxiv.org/abs/1801.09376
06:33 < saxo> [1801.09376] Observation of the Meissner effect at room temperature in single-layer graphene brought into contact with alkanes
06:41 < lsneff> These are all from 2018. Strange.
06:41 < fenn> kawashima was doing research several years before that at least
06:42 < lsneff> It seems like that one was pretty obvious that something was going on. I wonder why more hasn't come out of it?
06:42  * fenn puts on his graphene foil hat
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06:44 < lsneff> If they literally demonstrated room temperature superconductivity at ambient pressure, why has that not been confirmed hundreds of times over?
06:47 < ffranr> It is suspicious.
06:48 < ffranr> Top 3 prints int the list are single author.
06:50 < lsneff> Oh well, nevermind then.
06:50 < ffranr> lol, come on now :)
06:52 < lsneff> I feel like the most exciting science always ends up being by a single person or lab, and it's difficult to tell whether it's just wrong or if it's right and everyone else thinks it's wrong.
06:55 < ffranr> I wouldn't be surprised if that were true!
06:55 < ffranr> (that --> what you've said)
06:57 < ffranr> Single author papers have probably the largest variance. Most crazies are single authors also right?
06:57 < lsneff> There was that paper a few weeks back about inducing low-energy nuclear reactions with Rydberg matter. All the research is by one guy, it would be extremely useful, but how can it be true.
06:57 < lsneff> Reproducibility is a big problem in science.
06:58 < ffranr> Copy that (pun)
07:03 < fenn> should be easy enough to test it yourself
07:03 < fenn> apparently you get some effect even with graphite, so you don't even need graphene. not that it's especially difficult to make graphene or anything
07:04 < fenn> even with a low critical field strength, room temperature superconductors could be very useful
07:10 < ffranr> We are not alone in our suspicion: https://www.electronicsweekly.com/blogs/engineer-in-wonderland/room-temperature-superconductivity-claimed-tokai-university-2018-07/
07:11 < ffranr> I wish I could find a phone number to give the author a call.
07:13 < lsneff> As fenn suggested, I suppose someone just has to try it.
07:14 < kanzure> i haven't formally asked, does anyone know any ghostwriters who are looking for some work?
07:14 < kanzure> the project is for a nonfiction book
07:14 < kanzure> fwiw eric hunting declined for some strange reason
07:14 < kanzure> so he's off the list
07:24 < juri_> I have a friend that produces graphene in bulk. it's not horrible when spin coated onto a wafer.
07:34 < lsneff> kanzure: You writing your biography :P
07:37 < juri_> is kanzure even old enough for that? :P
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07:55 < kanzure> it's not a biography but that's an interesting idea
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07:58 < lsneff> Whatcha planning on having ghostwritten then?
07:59 < kanzure> see pm
08:11 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=85376dc7 Michael Folkson: Add Sergi on watchtowers at Potzblitz >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/lightning-hack-day/2020-05-24-sergi-delgado-watchtowers/
08:11 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=15e746e7 Bryan Bishop: Merge pull request #111 from michaelfolkson/add-sergi-potzblitz >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/
08:16 < ffranr> I wish a arxiv.org preprint could be a mirror to a GitHub repository release. Does that exist? I want to submit PRs for papers.
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08:20 < docl> paper is cited twice, doesn't look like they experimentally replicated the results: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=2331030986001527322
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08:27 < docl> nobody failed to replicate the result (and bothered to publish about it), too?
08:30 < docl> this from 2019 doesn't even mention it: https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/the-race-is-on-to-make-the-first-room-temperature-superconductor/4010591.article
08:30 < docl> .title
08:30 < saxo> The race is on to make the first room temperature superconductor | Research | Chemistry World
08:32 < ffranr> Similar paper and same author cited 28 times here: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Possible+room+temperature+superconductivity+in+conductors+obtained+by+bringing+alkanes+into+contact+with+a+graphite+surface+&btnG=
08:33 < docl> ah, thanks
08:35 < ffranr> "hints for the existence of superconductivity above room temperature in different graphite-based
08:35 < ffranr> systems were reported in the last 40 years [12–16] without providing, however, any knowledge of the critical temperature"
08:35 < ffranr> https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1367-2630/18/11/113041/meta
08:35 < ffranr> It's reference 16.
08:37 < ffranr> It's so strange. Is our collective knowledge ranking system really that inefficient?
08:37 < lsneff> Yes
08:38 < ffranr> If I try it out at home and discover that it does work, I think that the shock that this sort of thing has been lost/ignored would dominate.
08:41 < ffranr> lsneff, out of interest, do you know of other cases where high impact public information was ignored/missed?
08:42 < lsneff> Not of the top of my head. But it does seem clear to me that it is, in fact, terribly designed, so I wouldn't be surprised if such examples did exist, but no one knew about them.
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08:50 < ffranr> I've just thought of a plot for a sci-fi novel, I am now also looking for a ghost writer.
08:54 < jrayhawk> do you have money for a ghost writer
08:58 < ffranr> I guess offering brand exposure wont work...
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09:37 < docl> https://www.researchgate.net/post/Room_temperature_superconductivity_was_finally_achieved
09:37 < docl> .title
09:37 < saxo> ResearchGate
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09:41 < docl> some of the comments are about a different claim, silver/gold nanostructures
09:41 < docl> the graphite/graphene claims are harder to test because you get diamagnetism without superconductivity to begin with, e.g. in HOPG
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09:42 < docl> ffranr: I just found this, has some useful discussion https://www.researchgate.net/post/Room_temperature_superconductivity_was_finally_achieved
09:44 < ffranr> Looking...
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10:13 < ffranr> Thanks docl, that's a lot of information. Not sure what to make of it all.
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10:23 < lsneff> .tw 1268562486963261440
10:23 < saxo> When do we stop printing face shields and start printing gas masks? (@strangepartscom)
10:30 < L29Ah> personally i prefer spacesuits
10:32 < lsneff> We'll be printing those soon enough :P
10:54 < fenn> i'm sort of confused by this whole idea that we should do mass production with 3d printers
10:54 < fenn> like, make a mold? duh?
11:03 < L29Ah> why not?
11:04 < ffranr> fenn: harder to tinker with a mold? Also, isn't it mostly a play on distribution/demand dynamics?
11:06 < ffranr> bulk distribute common material and then on-demand printing
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12:28 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/fpga_dave/status/1268498620082466817
12:28 < saxo> I can't even say how angry I am. It really feels this is a direct response to me and others burning ourselves out making tooling that has made Lattice FPGAs vastly more popular in some communities and even for commercial projects. (@fpga_dave, in reply to tw:1268497641941413888)
13:27 < juri_> don't burn yourself out making tools for others.
13:32 < juri_> ... I say, as i build new tools for others.
13:34 < L29Ah> juri_: how's the rounded union support?
13:34 < L29Ah> i think it's the killer-feature of implicitcad, and it's useless w/o it working as advertised
13:34 < L29Ah> it's useless = implicitcad is useless
13:35 < L29Ah> as the other features are present in openscad that also works faster and more precise
13:36 < juri_> have fun with that, then.
13:36 < kanzure> implicitcad doesn't implement boolean union?
13:37 < L29Ah> kanzure: it does, but it advertises rounded boolean union that's broken
13:37 < juri_> you know, a great way to ingratiate yourself with a maintainer is to claim their product is useless if your personal bug isn't fixed.
13:37 < L29Ah> sure
13:37 < juri_> yes, bounding boxes get weird, and buggy. it's on my list.
13:37 < L29Ah> it has nothing to do with bounding boxes
13:38 < L29Ah> they are correct in the provided test cases
13:38 < juri_> yes, but the bound of the rounding function is somehow wrong.
13:38 < juri_> it's weird, and i can't quite explain it.
13:39 < juri_> if i could explain it, i'd be part way to fixing it. :)
13:40 < juri_> (sorry, dealing with a difficult work customer after hours atm. just trying to write a infill function, damnit...)
13:41 < juri_> I'll be back fighting ImplicitCAD here in a bit, tho i'm prioritizing mesh defects first.
13:41 < L29Ah> so you don't think https://github.com/colah/ImplicitCAD/issues/204#issuecomment-506911586 is the problem?
13:43 < juri_> yeah, that math is a bit above me.
13:44 < juri_> I'd have to read a math book to get it... or maybe spend a few days banging my head on it.
13:45 < juri_> if you want it done, and it seems you do, could you provide what each of those defective objects should have looked like? that'd help me wrap my head around it.
13:46 < juri_> the first report is right, but report 2 and 3 are hard for me to wrap my head around.
13:47 < juri_> ... your PR is suffering from something similar. better descriptions make merging easier.
13:48 < juri_> describe it right, so i can context-switch to it easier, and it's probably good to go. i just don't know what it does, and shouldn't have to write a test case for a user submitted PR. a before and after image would be great.
13:48 < juri_> and, again, sorry i was a bit snippy. rough week.
13:51 < L29Ah> sure i understand how to make a life of a maintainer better, but i'm not necessarily motivated enough for it, and after you telling that you can't handle that math, it seems to me that the bug won't ever be fixed if i won't do it (and i failed to produce a satisfactory solution even after groking the involved math), so i consider the project useless for me and unlikely to improve in the future (broken
13:51 < L29Ah>  "by design"), so i'm unlikely to improve my PR
13:51 < juri_> welp, your option.
13:51 < L29Ah> i find nothing bad about your tone and response
13:51 < juri_> I've fixed a lot of stuff i don't grok at a paticular moment.. but i'm no mathemetician.
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13:55 < L29Ah> if you're interested in making a good CAD, i'd check out the approach of freecad; implicit functions don't seem to perform good enough for complex objects or bigger resolutions (and they suffer from having to render everything with a bigger res while others spend only a fraction of time if a fraction of an object needs especially precise handling); i wonder though if they can be offloaded to GPU for M
13:55 < L29Ah> UCH faster processing, as running the same stuff over lots of various inputs seems to be the thing GPUs are good at
13:56 < L29Ah> too bad GPGPUs still don't have a common ground re API
13:56 < juri_> I'm going to keep plodding along on ImplicitCAD. it will be the best of what it is.
13:57 < juri_> and most of the slow is due to not merging triangles as we go. I've been doing a LOT of threading work on HSlice. i look forward to applying it to ImplicitCAD.
13:57 < juri_> writing good haskell is hard. :)
13:59 < lsneff> L29Ah: GPGPU will have a common-ground API with webgpu
14:00 < lsneff> Poorly named, it works well off the web
14:01 < lsneff> Also, cut juri_ some slack, not great to be a maintainer of something and hear that from a user
14:02 < juri_> ImplicitCAD has actually been gaining popularity. I've been able to fix all kinds of other bugs, which has made it more than minorly useful. :)
14:03 < L29Ah> lsneff: i find it not great not to tell a human that i think the human's ongoing work is useless, as the human will continue doing useless work in the future if i don't, instead of contributing to something really great
14:03 < juri_> I cringe to think of how it was a few years back.
14:04 < juri_> L29Ah: your github icon is fitting. ;)
14:04 < L29Ah> lsneff: but the original implicitcad author is a much bigger asshole anyway
14:05 < lsneff> Is that the openai guy?
14:05 < L29Ah> yes
14:05 < L29Ah> his interactive articles are quite fun though
14:05 < L29Ah> but implicitcad code is ugh
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14:08 < L29Ah> always dreamed of a type called ℝ²
14:08 < lsneff> I always feel bad when I look at the resumes/CVs of people like him. Lots of impressive stuff
14:08 < lsneff> I need to work on my imposter syndrome
14:08 < juri_> we've re-written the entire parser and execution engine. :P
14:09 < L29Ah> yeah he has a lot to learn from re public image
14:09 < juri_> he sent me a co-maintainer for a while. the guy was.. well. he's not involved anymore.
14:10  * L29Ah considers switching to machine learning, but feels like it's only useful to huge data-hoarding corporations now that i don't feel like working with
14:10 < juri_> L29Ah: you can always fix bugs in implicitcad and hslice. 3d printing is useful. :)
14:10 < L29Ah> sorry i'm already involved with slic3r clusterfuck
14:11 < juri_> well, keep up the good work. enjoy the clusterfuck. :)
14:11 < L29Ah> i'm starting to understand why there are 3 separate (and diverging) trees of it, not sure which one to follow yet
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14:14 < L29Ah> juri_: never heard of hslice; does it have any unusual features?
14:14 < L29Ah> except being easier to hack due to being written in a saner language
14:14 < juri_> L29Ah: it has more bugs than features.
14:14 < juri_> still very alpha.
14:15 < juri_> I'm intending to make it support 6 axis slicing, so i can run a machine i'm building with 5 axises.
14:15 < juri_> 3 linear, two rotational.
14:15 < juri_> but right now, it's just a very bad 3 axis slicer.
14:15 < L29Ah> oh shit
14:16 < L29Ah> sounds really hard to produce a good algorithm for
14:16 < juri_> start with dumb ones, and improve.
14:17 < juri_> i am no mathematician, but i can write dumb algorithms, and refine.
14:18 < juri_> I'm using ImplicitCAD for the input models, hense why i'm going to be hitting the mesh generation first. it's generating bad meshes, and confusing hslice.
14:19 < L29Ah> juri_: how do you visualise your produced gcode?
14:20 < juri_> I'm still reading a lot of it manually, but for larger batches, i open it in cura.
14:20 < juri_> I've emulated the comment tags they use, so i have the right colour codes.
14:20 < fenn> freecad sucks donkey balls
14:20 < juri_> you know how implicitcad is extopenscad? hslice is extcuraengine. it's almost command line compatible.
14:21 < L29Ah> fenn: but at least it can produce fillets to join stuff
14:21 < L29Ah> i'm having a really hard time with those in openscad
14:22 < juri_> I'm generally on a crusade to make a haskell 3d printing stack. i think it will take me another few years to get the bugs out of these tools, tho.
14:25 < fenn> also you can hoard data too, it's not just for corporations
14:26 < fenn> i think i am going to have to write my own 5 axis filament layup software, since every 3d printing enthusiast seems to be completely stuck in the 'slicer' mindset
14:27 < fenn> without this we'll always be stuck in a terrible world of gross layered prints
14:27 < fenn> and can't really use fibers effectively either
14:28 < fenn> cura's "ironing" feature makes a smooth enough surface, but it only works on flat horizontal surfaces
14:28 < juri_> document it well.
14:28 < fenn> computational geometry is much harder than you expect
14:29 < fenn> i may not be able to do it
14:29 < juri_> fenn: i've been writing it for 6 years. ;)
14:30 < juri_> pretty much full time for the last two.
14:30 < juri_> i'm just bad at it. :)
14:30 < fenn> that's exactly my point though. everybody's bad at it
14:30 < lsneff> juri_: How'd you get into a position where you could live off your work on this?
14:31 < juri_> lsneff: I'm not. I write haskell all day, then use ImplicitCAD / HSlice at night to sharpen my haskell skills. i work pretty much all of the time, on *something*.
14:32 < juri_> there's just too much that needs done for me to really let myself do otherwise.
14:34 < juri_> I'm a 'full believer' here. I want out of this shell, and i want a backup of myself. perhaps then, i'll do something other than work hard. until then.. i don't think it's morally right to do anything else. damn infitities. they really distort reason.
14:35 < fenn> .title http://youtu.be/OsET6cQcciM?t=20s
14:35 < saxo> YouTube
14:35 < fenn> .title http://youtu.be/OsET6cQcciM?t=20s
14:35 < saxo> YouTube
14:35 < fenn> .title http://youtu.be/0sET6cQcciM?t=20s
14:35 < saxo> YouTube
14:35 < fenn> bah
14:35 < fenn> the last one should work
14:36 < lsneff> juri_: That's a really admirable world view.
14:40 < juri_> hopefully it's catchy. :)
14:58 < L29Ah> 00:25:30]<fenn> also you can hoard data too, it's not just for corporations
14:58 < L29Ah> sure, probably my mindset sucks and i will be able to see the pattern for improvement if i dig into it; though i've already made a simple neural network thing and linear regression thing, i still don't see the vast amount of data waiting to be transformed to be actually useful
14:59 < L29Ah> 00:28:12]<fenn> cura's "ironing" feature makes a smooth enough surface, but it only works on flat horizontal surfaces
14:59 < L29Ah> check slic3r's nonplanar slicing
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15:00 < fenn> yes that's better. it's a new feature?
15:02 < fenn> ironing smooshes and melts the gaps between filament passes, without actually laying any more filament down
15:03 < L29Ah> well it's something that i want to upstream, but the original author sucks at coding and maintainers aren't very enthusiastic about it
15:05 < L29Ah> so there's a fourth fork that is a 2yo slic3r with that feature >_>
15:05 < juri_> L29Ah: seeing that is what inspired my new printer / slicer. I'll take it. :)
15:05 < fenn> it's not really clear what are the actual limits of the technique
15:06 < fenn> the test print on this page looks almost flat https://www.appropedia.org/Nonplanar_Slicing
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15:10 < L29Ah> the limits are of your extruder and nozzle dimensions
15:10 < L29Ah> https://i.ytimg.com/vi/km1lvuva5mI/maxresdefault.jpg
15:12 < L29Ah> https://i0.wp.com/hackaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/non-planar-layer-fdm_graphics-012.png?w=609&h=335&ssl=1
15:12 < L29Ah> but that's a tradeoff
15:13 < L29Ah> i wonder when collet/clamping nozzles become mainstream
15:14 < L29Ah> i've already stripped threads on two aluminum blocks tightening nozzles
15:26 < fenn> all this effort when you could just rotate the nozzle instead
15:27 < fenn> it still should be pointy to get into valleys
15:29 < fenn> i think most parts are something like an injection molded clamshell half
15:29 < fenn> you want to go through an angle of about 180 degrees
15:29 < fenn> it can be printed on a fixture block so it's fine if the nozzle seems like it would hit the bed
15:29 < juri_> fenn: yeah. my new machine should be able to rotate the nozzle on 2 axises.
15:33 < juri_> I put a lot of thought into the printer, then went "wait. software. should take me a few months.". I'll be lucky to catch up with that slicer fork this year.
15:34 < fenn> i'll probably try to leverage the interactive nature of blender to get the computer to do the right thing, instead of trying to make everything automatic
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22:11 < lsneff> .t https://s.ai/nlws/
22:11 < saxo> Unker Non-Linear Writing System
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--- Log closed Fri Jun 05 00:00:41 2020