--- Log opened Sun Jul 12 00:00:00 2020
--- Day changed Sun Jul 12 2020
00:00 < hoijui> decades of many people and organization dedicating themselfs on this
00:00 < fenn> i am really puzzled by RMS's apathy toward open hardware, or "free hardware" i guess he would call it, if he cared
00:01 < hoijui> in our group, we have some people making machiens, and while everyone agrees that documentation is important and they want others to reproduce their machines .... most of our stuff is not well documented either
00:01 < fenn> i would like to see more focus on releases. like, get all your stuff together, put a stamp on it "this worked 2020-07-12"
00:02 < hoijui> we have some machines htat are.. in my eyes.. qutie important or say.. could have a real, positive impact in the world. but they are not documented good eough, by far
00:02 < fenn> what is your group making?
00:02 < hoijui> we are OSE Germany
00:03 < fenn> ah. i'm familiar with the original OSE project but not the germany branch
00:03 < hoijui> one thing we have is a zink-air fuell-cell/battery
00:03 < fenn> is thomasegi participating in this?
00:03 < hoijui> the german branch is kind of more... well.. I like the US branches style better
00:03 < hoijui> I don't know him
00:04 < fenn> i always felt excluded from OSE because they wanted to know exactly what your plan was, and needed a schedule before you ever even set foot on site
00:04 < hoijui> the german branch is more scattered, and the bulk of us lives in cities, without easy access to fab labs or space ot use/test machines
00:04 < fenn> like, i just wanted to see your stuff, not do a PhD
00:04 < hoijui> mmmm ok
00:05 < hoijui> just say, you'll clean the toilets and do the dishes
00:05 < hoijui> we don't even have a main site. the biggest bulk of us lives scattered over berlin
00:06 < hoijui> where we have an office, but no workshop
00:06 < fenn> that's crazy
00:06 < hoijui> we do more administration then other stuff... thus also the DIN
00:06 < fenn> so i guess you are designing the global apartment complex construction set
00:06 < hoijui> we had plans to get a site outside
00:07 < hoijui> but ... it is collapsing these months
00:07 < hoijui> :D
00:07 < fenn> yes, well, 2020 is the year of hindsight
00:07 < hoijui> yeah... we do more.. "civilized" tech
00:07 < fenn> i'd love to see more miniaturized machine shops
00:07 < hoijui> most of us qr equit eyoung here in berlin
00:08 < hoijui> have not reached their 30ties
00:08 < hoijui> they are interested in living in hte countryside nad making machines and so on... but they are still to fixed on the big city
00:08 < hoijui> more then that interest of going out there
00:09 < fenn> the sun shines on berlin as well. you don't need to be in the country to grow plants
00:09 < fenn> uh... there's the issue of noise i guess
00:09 < hoijui> and in the site we were building up the last 4 years, outside... ther ewas no possibility to move there, so it was limited to a few week long visits.. it made absolutely no sense. i am happy it is collapsing now
00:09 < hoijui> grow plants .. hmmm....
00:10 < hoijui> here, everythign changes so much
00:10 < hoijui> you change from one apartment to the other eveyr 2 years because of changeing prices or somethign else, your friends move away, new ones come, ...
00:10 < hoijui> to me, it does not feel liek a place to grow plants
00:11 < hoijui> the spiritual people also say, it is a city built on sand, and thus, nothing is stable here, and this is how it feels to me
00:11 < hoijui> it is cool when you are young, alwyas new stuff.. new ideas. new minds, ....
00:11 < fenn> in the US we just do burning man
00:11 < hoijui> :D
00:11 < fenn> everything is reduced to dust after a week
00:12 < hoijui> yeah.. that is good
00:12 < fenn> rebuilding from scratch every time is a huge waste of effort
00:12 < hoijui> mmmm
00:12 < fenn> i guess some people get something out of it
00:12 < hoijui> it can;t really be taken away fro you (so easily). that way :D
00:13 < fenn> ah but they're working on it
00:13 < hoijui> mmmm mmm
00:13 < hoijui> you can alwysa still move to some other continent, and  start doing it there
00:13 < hoijui> but we are derailing
00:13 < fenn> i would rather collaborate independently than lump everything into one big project
00:14 < hoijui> so the zinc-air fuell cell is cool tech
00:14 < hoijui> but it is just about 1/3 documented (of what was done so far)
00:14 < hoijui> in a wiki
00:14 < hoijui> a few basic 3D models are in a git repo
00:14 < hoijui> 1/3 is on paper somewhere
00:14 < hoijui> and the rest is in the mind of a single person
00:15 < hoijui> and it is so since 2 years already
00:15 < fenn> it seems like most people just don't "get it". either you're an engineer accustomed to getting paid by a boss, or you're a hopeless popsicle-stick gluing together idealist, or you're a competent mechanic that takes blurry photos and posts them to facebook
00:15 < hoijui> yeah.. it is hard to get it all together
00:16 < fenn> there's very few people with enough exposure to both open software and actual hardware engineering practice
00:16 < hoijui> my question is, how to get the mech-people to use git (well)
00:16 < hoijui> small steps
00:16 < fenn> git doesn't work so well with binary cad formats
00:16 < hoijui> .. and how to get them to document more/better
00:16 < hoijui> and at the moment, the best idea I have is, to organize re-builds
00:17 < hoijui> we have a solution for that already
00:17 < hoijui> the main problems are not technical
00:17 < hoijui> if htey put all their CAD into git, even if it was pure binary, nad bloats up the repo, it would still be better then not having them in git
00:17 < hoijui> we basically promote (and use) only FreeCAD nad OpenSCAD
00:17 < fenn> .title http://www.bruno.postle.net/older-stuff/2003/draft/
00:18 < saxo> Neat Stuff      :     Older stuff...      :     2003      :        An open file format for Computer Aided Design (CAD)
00:18 < hoijui> the later of course, being fully git compatible by itsself
00:18 < hoijui> and FreeCAD files are basically just ZIP files with a bunch of text files inside
00:18 < fenn> yeah i hate FreeCAD and any opencascade derived software
00:18 < fenn> i mostly use blender
00:18 < hoijui> and that cna be made ot work well wiht git qutie easily
00:18 < hoijui> an other techincal issue is. all the generated files
00:18 < hoijui> which also end up in git, becasue they cna not be generated automatically yet
00:19 < hoijui> also a tehcnical problem that is solvable
00:19 < fenn> i feel like the nurbs snobbery "that's not a cad format" is misguided, and people who promote that view don't understand how subsurf mesh modeling works
00:20 < hoijui> well, if you go to the people using FreeCAD, and tell them "you are stupid! use blender instead" you will solve nothing
00:20 < hoijui> as said, the problem is not technical
00:20 < hoijui> it is bigger then that.... it is education, psychological, ....
00:20 < fenn> i understand why people would want to use opencascade, i wasted several years on it myself
00:21 < hoijui> and only small steps and a lot of trial and errors, and actual human interaction and... cna solve things
00:21 < fenn> but opencascade is more of an archeological dig than a tool, layers upon layers of successive invaders speaking different languages and having different cultures and worldviews
00:22 < fenn> it's too big to refactor, and will remain broken for all time
00:22 < hoijui> i am talkign about OpenSCAD, not opencascade
00:22 < hoijui> I don;t know anyone who uses opencascade
00:22 < fenn> freecad is based on opencascade
00:23 < hoijui> ok
00:23 < fenn> freecad is just window dressing for opencascade library calls
00:24 < hoijui> this conversation seems kind of fruitless since some time. ;-)
00:24 < fenn> openSCAD is okay for what it is, i guess. i wish they didn't invent a new language, but now there are lots of files written in this weird little special purpose programming language
00:25 < fenn> okay, well, i have many years of thinking on this topic, and it's probably past my bedtime
00:26 < fenn> it's not just "how do we get hardware people interested in freedom", it's also "how do we get software people interested in hardware"
00:26 < fenn> there is very little open source CAD software out there
00:27 < adlai> turn off their mains current.
00:28 < adlai> preferably by removing the electricity meter, rather than cutting any cables
00:30 < fenn> hard to get them to write code when the electricity is out
00:37 < hoijui> :D
00:41 < hoijui> fenn, what did you reffer to with: "also this web app word processing stuff is terrible"?
00:42 < hoijui> Markdown?
00:42 < fenn> the oshpark blog linked to some fairkom.net/nextcloud draft documents for DIN 3105
00:43 < hoijui> ah yeah and about oho.wiki .... it is terrible, in my eyes
00:43 < hoijui> ahh ok
00:43 < hoijui> yeah... nextcloud....
00:43 < fenn> the versions of those documents in gitlab are far behind
00:43 < hoijui> we have plans to move from nextcloud to git, but... that is going to be a looong process
00:44 < hoijui> what?
00:44 < hoijui> can;t be...
00:44 < hoijui> gitlab is definitely the latest
00:44 < fenn> i think it was v0.4 in git and v0.7 on nextcloud
00:44 < hoijui> 0.4 in git? it shoudl be 0.10
00:44 < hoijui> which git?
00:44 < hoijui> how did you get to it?
00:45 < fenn> i was looking at gitlab.com/OSEGermany/OHS/
00:47 < fenn> ok you're correct it's v0.10
00:48 < hoijui> ufff.. ok :D
00:48 < hoijui> but somehow you must have seen 0.4 somewhere.. I wonder where that was
00:49 < hoijui> yeah.. we evaluated different formats in the beginning, and dsettled for Markdown (although not perfect of course)
00:49 < hoijui> but... DIN was reviewing a few times, and they woudl only do so with word documents
00:50 < hoijui> and while pandoc cna convert between these two, that is not optimal, and they woudl not use the markdown generated word documents, but somethign with similar/same content, but using their own templates
00:50 < hoijui> so.. it was manual work, going back and forth
00:50 < fenn> you should at least update the faircloud docs to have actual links to the git repo, instead of effectively <git link goes here>
00:51 < hoijui> martin, whos brain child the norm is, and who did most of it, is a very positive person.. wihtout that, it woudl not have worked ;-)
00:51 < hoijui> ok.. faircloud docs..
00:51 < fenn> nextcloud
00:52 < fenn> some open source knock off of google docs :P
00:52 < hoijui> yeah! :D
00:52 < hoijui> did you google for DIN 3105 and got to somethign on nextcloud?
00:53 < fenn> yes, the most relevant thing i saw was the oshpark blog entry
00:53 < fenn> and it linked to nextcloud
00:53 < hoijui> ook, thanks!
00:53 < fenn> lots of other stuff about ISO 3105 pertaining to viscometers
01:04 < hoijui> ahhh...
01:04 < hoijui> "Kinematic viscometers in accordance with ISO 3105,    DIN 51562, ASTM D445"
01:04 < hoijui> it is ISO 3015, equivalent to DIN 51562
01:04 < hoijui> but google mixes them up :D
01:12  * fenn sleeps
01:22 < hoijui> ouh and about certification ... it is supposed to be decentralized
01:22 < hoijui> technically even distributed
01:23 < hoijui> with the idea of .. everyone cna be a certification authority
01:23 < hoijui> and whether they are trusted by others depends on their quality
01:24 < hoijui> this part is again.. more for the industry, which I am not so interested in
01:24 < hoijui> if the community works well, uses good methods and tools and workflows adn all, the industry will have no choice but to hop on
01:28 < hoijui> fenn, regarding (ZIP based) binary files on git: https://github.com/hoijui/ReZipDoc
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--- Log closed Sun Jul 12 08:49:13 2020
--- Log opened Sun Jul 12 08:49:13 2020
09:20 < kanzure> "Potential short‐term earthquake forecasting by farm animal monitoring" https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/eth.13078
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11:03 < fenn> hoijui: curl | sh is a really bad security practice, especially for developers
11:04 < hoijui> fenn, where is it?
11:05 < fenn> https://github.com/hoijui/ReZipDoc readme
11:07 < hoijui> please make a PR
11:07 < hoijui> ;-)
11:07 < fenn> where did you even learn to do such a thing?
11:07 < hoijui> what's the purpose of this qquestion?
11:08 < kanzure> purpose is to eliminate bad teachings
11:10 < fenn> to help me understand the world is all
11:10 < fenn> also so i know who to blame
11:12 < hoijui> for all of this, it makes more sense to google for it, then to ask this question
11:12 < hoijui> or look for it on github
11:13 < hoijui> obviously, nobody knows the answer to such a question, and you knew both of these
11:13 < hoijui> the purpose was different
11:14 < kanzure> the purpose is to save fenn from running "git blame"
11:15 < fenn> no, i mean who to blame for teaching people to do curl | sh
11:15 < hoijui> I know you mean that
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11:15 < hoijui> but that is not the actual purpose
11:15 < hoijui> all I see you do, is pick out problems and shortcomings, randomly
11:15 < fenn> fine, you win
11:16 < hoijui> in our field, as we discussed, the problem is to find out how to motivate people to do things they are not used to do
11:16 < kanzure> evidently the new problem is not accepting peer review
11:17 < hoijui> I/we are happy about all the problems you foudn wiht the DIN norm
11:17 < hoijui> and the curl | sh thing I knew, I was just too lazy to figure out somethign else, and as you know, I asked for a PR
11:19 < fenn> the random reason was that i had just read an article pointing out the prevalence of this combo, and it popped out at me as important to mention
11:19 < fenn> this was the article https://corte.si/posts/hacks/github-pipechains/
11:20 < hoijui> as said, this was not a random thing, but yeah.. sorry, it makes sense you assumed I mean that
11:20 < hoijui> and I seem to have a bad day... sorry for that too
11:21 < hoijui> did some sport. apparently a bad idea. :D
11:21 < fenn> why not run the script from inside the git cloned repo?
11:24 < hoijui> thanks for the feedback fenn, I'll read the article, maybe tomorrow
11:24 < fenn> also fwiw the filtering example script https://git.io/fjgR5 is missing
11:24 < hoijui> I think I better end today now
11:24 < hoijui> ok, thanks
11:25  * fenn thinks positive thoughts
11:26  * fenn pulls out a copy of "How to Win Friends and Influence People" for further study
11:27 < hoijui> :D
11:27 < hoijui> .. how did I evne come up with these short URLs?
11:28 < fenn> honestly i'm surprised you had to write this unzip-before-checkin software at all, it seems like a common problem
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11:28 < hoijui> I did not write it myself
11:29 < hoijui> I just continued it
11:29 < hoijui> but .. I think very few People use it
11:29 < hoijui> or one of its predecessors
11:29 < fenn> okay i briefly looked up the other author and saw some stuff about engineering, so i assumed he was affiliated with OSE somehow
11:29 < hoijui> ah.. not that I know of
11:30 < hoijui> btw, foudn a tool that does the smae thign for PNG files
11:30 < hoijui> which does not make them huamnd readable, but at least delta-compression friendly (to some extend)
11:30 < hoijui> https://github.com/rayrobdod/png-inflate/
11:31 < fenn> interesting. so does the user doing a git checkout need to have png compression software installed in order to get back to a compressed png in their working directory?
11:31 < hoijui> I don;t know how practical that is in practise, as uncompressed PNGs cna become quite big
11:32 < fenn> it seems most software doesn't respect bitwise reproducibility, so these sorts of automatic transformations are not common
11:32 < hoijui> fenn, I guess.. yes, he did not yet implement a smudge filter (which is the thing doing that
11:32 < hoijui> but I woudl say it makes little sense to do that
11:33 < hoijui> except when you are packing a release or so
11:33 < fenn> i don't know what a smudge filter is or does
11:33 < hoijui> there is a clean fitler, and a smudge fitler (git terms)
11:33 < fenn> it's like lossy compression?
11:33 < hoijui> clean cleans up a file(type) from the disk for use in git
11:34 < hoijui> smudge does the opposite .. on chekcout
11:34 < hoijui> it takes the git version of the file, and converts it to a disk version
11:34 < hoijui> disk version meaning.. the way you wnat it on the disk/checked out
11:34 < fenn> right
11:35 < hoijui> both of these tools, rezipdoc and png-inflate, do compression and uncompression, but you coudl do any kind of change
11:35 < hoijui> you can replace a file with a placehodler value.. or whatever
11:35 < fenn> the concept of a smudge filter seems very powerful. you can run an arbitrary command on checkout, like "render this 3D scene to a movie"
11:35 < fenn> but maybe it's not wise to burden it so much
11:36 < hoijui> there is a 3rd filter, kidn of independent of these two, which converts a file from git into a form that is meant for diffing
11:36 < hoijui> ohh.. I never though of that!!
11:36 < hoijui> damn...
11:36 < hoijui> shoudl have been so obvious :D
11:37 < hoijui> I just learned to use CI for generating stuff, and never though there woudl be anbn other way
11:37 < fenn> my friend is working on a sort of database of transformations and their results, where you just store the intermediate hashes and the endpoints on the transformation graph
11:37 < hoijui> but yeah of course.. it woudl make checkout very slow, very eawsily
11:37 < fenn> an existing example of this sort of thing is ccache, the compiler cache
11:38 < fenn> so you don't have to compile something you've already compiled
11:38 < fenn> but the concept generalizes to any reproducible computation
11:38 < hoijui> for what kind of transformations does he want to use it?
11:39 < hoijui> if input and computation is oftne the same, then it makes sense... where else do you have that instead of the ccache scenario?
11:40 < hoijui> ahh yeah...
11:40 < fenn> not sure what it's for. compression, and something about cryptographic verification using hashes
11:40 < hoijui> so we could generate PNG fiels from SVG on checkout with a smudge fitler, but only if the SVG file changed
11:41 < hoijui> ok
11:41 < hoijui> or more usefull maybe.. generate SVGs/PNGs from FreeCAD/OpenSCAD files
11:41 < fenn> right
11:41 < hoijui> I will try to read abotu that.. soomeone must have already experimented wiht that
11:41 < fenn> do they store thumbnails for each part inside the file?
11:42 < hoijui> in FreeCAD?
11:42 < hoijui> I woudl not know
11:42 < hoijui> I think not
11:42 < fenn> i remember poking around in solidworks files and seeing a bunch of pre-rendered thumbnails
11:42 < fenn> this way you can browse the files visually without actually loading them
11:42 < hoijui> I vaguely remember seeing only text files, when I looked into a FreeCAD (ZIP) file
11:43 < fenn> it would also be cool to have a visual diff of a cad file
11:43 < fenn> like a 2 frame animated gif, or red and green geometry to represent removal and addition
11:43 < hoijui> I think it is common, for OS tools to do such renders, but I have not seen it for FreeCAD
11:43 < fenn> github introduced some visual diff stuff several years ago but i have never seen it in the wild
11:44 < hoijui> yes, for STL files only, though
11:44 < hoijui> that is oone main reason why many include STL files next to their source files in a git repo ;-)
11:44 < hoijui> at least at OSEG
11:45 < hoijui> I think github used the library that OpenSCAD is based on for the rendering
11:46 < hoijui> there is an article describing how they did it, it did not seem too awfully complex
11:47 < hoijui> but I think those renders put quite some load on their servers, becasue they later took meassures to reduce them (like showing only one render by default, when looking at a commit where multiple STL files changed
11:47 < fenn> perhaps you could use this functionality with preview thumbnails of the cad file https://docs.github.com/en/github/managing-files-in-a-repository/rendering-and-diffing-images
11:48 < hoijui> yeah, the STL file comparison is pretty much the same
11:48 < hoijui> just in 3D
11:49 < hoijui> you cna rotate and such
11:49 < hoijui> you can rotate and such
11:50 < hoijui> rebuilding thier system, and then adjusting it to work not just wiht STL, but aslo OpenSCAD and FreeCAD would be good. someone woudl just have to do it. ;-)
11:50 < hoijui> if done, it coudl be integrated int github. gitlab, gitea and such
11:51 < hoijui> and before that used in CI, and also in git smudge filter, maybe
11:52 < hoijui> this, and fully automated, custoiomizable tech drawing generation, are .. I think the two main features we woudl want, to make git more interesting for hardware people
11:52 < fenn> if i were github i would probably not want to integrate software from random developers
11:52 < fenn> another reason to not use github i guess
11:52 < hoijui> and seting up the fitlers and the genreation of images and all, has to be super simple.
11:53 < hoijui> yeah.. then the hardware people might use it less
11:53 < hoijui> I cna jsut say, that qutie some of the OSEG people woudl be quite syced about this stuff
11:53 < hoijui> they are pushing me to do it. ;-)
11:54 < fenn> oh good. i had gotten the impression that you were the lone crusader bringing the holy revision control system to the heathens
11:54 < hoijui> for tech drawings, I imagine a simle meta-data text-file, per each generated image
11:55 < hoijui> which contains stuff like angle, distance to object, and cut plane+normal
11:55 < hoijui> ahh.. luckily not!
11:56 < hoijui> well.. I ma the only one that is somewhat prfficient at it, but there are quite some that are very eager to use it
11:56 < hoijui> and they are learning, and asking for help wiht git, and they want teachings/workshops on it
11:56 < fenn> yes the ability to make drawings is a big and difficult feature of cad programs, but i wonder if it's really worth it? if you're making the hardware yourself it doesn't have to be in an industry standard format to hand to a factory drone
11:56 < hoijui> but ... mech-guys are much more visual people
11:57 < hoijui> for example, the git tools they use have to look nice nad cool, visually
11:57 < hoijui> otherwise they do nto want to use it
11:57 < fenn> ideally they would not use a git tool at all, just click File -> Commit
11:58 < hoijui> fenn, yeah I was also surprised, that tech-drawings are still a thing today
11:58 < hoijui> but aparently... they tell me, that they are still the standard
11:58 < hoijui> hmmm....
11:59 < hoijui> I am not sure what hte best wya would be
11:59 < hoijui> they tend towards using integrated tools
11:59 < hoijui> but I see this as rather problematic
11:59 < fenn> i think if it's a separate program it will just not get used
11:59 < hoijui> these toosl work differently in all the softwares
11:59 < hoijui> and they always use many softwares
12:00 < hoijui> CAD, atom for markdown docu, KiCAD, ...
12:00 < hoijui> the buttons to commit nad push and pull and so on
12:00 < hoijui> have different names, and or same name and different stuff happening in the background
12:01 < hoijui> if they would use external tools
12:01 < hoijui> they woudl have to learn only one tool
12:01 < hoijui> and they are usualy of higher quality/have more consistency
12:01 < hoijui> they also use inkscape, gimp, ...
12:02 < fenn> oh my god, i'm trying out atom and it's 200MB
12:02 < hoijui> it just somehow makes no sense to integrate this functionallity everywhere half assed, in my eyes
12:02 < hoijui> :D
12:02 < hoijui> web-tech "for the win!"
12:02 < hoijui> in RAM, it will be 500MB :D
12:03 < hoijui> I saw an article yesterday, about Tim Berners Lee's new social media platform, which is P2P. adn it's written in Node.js
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12:03 < hoijui> what a shame
12:04 < hoijui> damn, I am really too negative
12:04 < fenn> it happens to the best of us :)
12:04 < hoijui> hehe
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12:06 < fenn> did you look at the bruno postle link yesterday? he's talking about using versioning filesystems for inter-program infinite undo
12:07 < fenn> it was written before git
12:07 < fenn> git is sort of like a filesystem
12:07 < fenn> if you don't care about a neat commit tree you can just auto-commit every change made to disk
12:08 < fenn> it's better than having nothing and losing all your work at least
12:08 < fenn> http://www.bruno.postle.net/older-stuff/2003/draft/
12:10 < hoijui> one woudl have to fine tune the rules for which dirs/files to use this on and for which not
12:10 < hoijui> so it does not become a bottleneck
12:11 < hoijui> for me personally, it makes no sense.. where woudl you wnat ot use it?
12:11 < hoijui> ah you mean... as a very simplek interface to git
12:11 < hoijui> yeah, for that it is quite perfect
12:11 < hoijui> could be done per project only
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12:12 < hoijui> better then not using git at all
12:12 < hoijui> but for big files that change often, and especially if they are binary, it woudl alreayd be a problem
12:14 < fenn> yes
12:15 < fenn> the proposal was mostly just urging "use lots of small separate files on disk"
12:15 < hoijui> hmmm ok
12:15 < hoijui> cool
12:15 < hoijui> I will read
12:15 < hoijui> am reading
12:21 < hoijui> hmm..
12:21 < hoijui> he wnats to use simple text files
12:21  * fenn is playing with markdown preview in atom
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12:21 < hoijui> but he also says, that information can be left in the fiel and not read into memory, until it is needed, like licensing info
12:21 < hoijui> bot for that to work, the data woudl have ot be fixed length
12:22 < hoijui> but*
12:22 < hoijui> which is not really .. a simepl text fiel anymore, nto as I know it
12:23 < hoijui> boah.. I get tired, my writing gets really bad
12:23 < hoijui> am*
12:23 < fenn> go to sleep, we'll be here tomorrow
12:23 < hoijui> k. :-)thanks for the info nad feedback!
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--- Log closed Mon Jul 13 00:00:17 2020