--- Log opened Mon Aug 10 00:00:45 2020
03:21 < nsh> reasonable-looking summary on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_6
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07:19 < kanzure> a little surprised to see cathal saying this given his staunch views against gene editing https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/MENRaAz--3-2%40cathalgarvey.me
07:26 < kanzure> https://www.reddit.com/r/longevity/comments/i6rq0n/update_on_rapamycin_treatment_for_dogs/
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08:28 < L29Ah> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32446312/
08:28 < L29Ah> .t
08:28 < saxo> Metformin Treatment Was Associated with Decreased Mortality in COVID-19 Patients with Diabetes in a Retrospective Analysis - PubMed
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11:04 < christianbundy> Hi. I'm poking around to see whether anyone is working on a technology tree project for the 21st century -- anyone have any leads?
11:06 < christianbundy> like https://recursiverecipes.schollz.com/recipe/apple-pie?amount=1&timelimit=1&ingredientsToBuild=apple%20pie or something except a full toolchain (mining, smelting, agriculture, etc) and with target products like computers, estradiol, etc
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11:13 < lsneff> christianbundy: I assume you’re familiar with the github tech tree?
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11:36 < christianbundy> lsneff: I am! I think I'm looking for something more cohesive and actionable rather than a collection of books to read.
11:37 < christianbundy> lsneff: I'm also interested in bootstrapping 'from scratch', optimizing for necessities like construction materials and healthcare rather than internet protocols.
11:38 < christianbundy> (I'm a P2P developer and would love to bootstrap modern computers from scratch, but I'd imagine that it'd take a huge dependency graph and decades/centuries.)
11:50 < L29Ah> are you allowed to use stone tools or you have to make them by hand first?
11:56 < christianbundy> L29Ah: I'd love to have 'make stone tools' in the dependency graph.
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11:57 < christianbundy> If you already have stone tools lying around, you'd of course be able to use those.
11:57 < christianbundy> But I have a hunch that you could make the stone age last 3.4 years instead of 3.4 million years.
11:59 < L29Ah> yes if you are allowed to buy food, shelter and medicine (:
12:02 < lsneff> An old project that is, at least, related to bootstrapping is skdb.
12:02 < christianbundy> L29Ah: I'd be interested to bootstrap those too, as I agree that they're dependencies.
12:03 < christianbundy> lsneff: Do you know where I can learn more? A web search for skdb turned up lots of false positives.
12:04 < lsneff> Skdb was mainly about trying to figure out how to make dependency graphs of physical things, including raw materials, tools, etc.
12:05 < lsneff> It was before my time. kanzure or many other people here would be able to supply more information.
12:05 < christianbundy> http://gnusha.org/skdb/ ?
12:06 < lsneff> Yep.
12:07 < christianbundy> Thanks.
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12:24 < TMA> christianbundy: is there a goal you have in mind? or just (idle) curiosity [which is not bad/good in itself]
12:32 < christianbundy> TMA: I want to feel safe and empowered that we can take care of each other even if things start to collapse. I find myself deeply entangled in a web of needs and incentives that I don't understand, and I'd like to get a feel for what the hell is going on.
12:37 < L29Ah> i'm not sure if bootstrapping to the current prosperity level would be possible at all as the easily accessible energy and mineral resources were depleted in the previous centuries
12:38 < TMA> christianbundy: as things start to collapse, there is not much to do.  as an individual, you are basically helpless -- most knowledges and skill need environmental leverage (either in the form of other people or the natural resources)
12:41 < christianbundy> I agree, I'm not interested in individualist prepper vibes. I'm interested in "how can my community continue to take care of each other without the existing apparatus?" / etc
12:42 < TMA> christianbundy: the very first step is: a the time of society collapse be in a locality where (1) it basically never freezes (2) water, food an fuel is available for gathering (3) you can recognize the food sources
12:43 < christianbundy> TMA: Cascadia reporting in.
12:44 < christianbundy> It sounds like maybe this isn't a project that has been worked on, maybe I'll take a stab at some of it. The neat thing is that it can be iterative -- start out with basic recipes and add detail recursively as time / energy / interest permits.
12:44 < TMA> only after you make yourself not die immediately you can enjoy leisure like toolmaking
12:45 < L29Ah> wtf 120 years is almost immediately
12:46 < TMA> for persons whose life expectancy drops to 40 suddenly it is "never"
12:46 < christianbundy> Of course, food + water + shelter + healthcare are absolutely vital.
12:47 < christianbundy> Maybe a better way to put it: assuming I'm not dead or dying, what are the most high-impact moves I can make toward current levels of prosperity?
12:47 < L29Ah> and all of those themselves now are dependent on a lot of technological marvels
12:48 < christianbundy> Sorry, I think I might be missing messages -- what's the context for the "120 years" comment?
12:49 < L29Ah> christianbundy: creating an adaptive/sustainable economy so things don't collapse completely in the first place?
12:49 < L29Ah> 22:44:35]<TMA> only after you make yourself not die immediately you can enjoy leisure like toolmaking
12:49 < L29Ah> this is the context
12:49 < L29Ah> s/sustainable/antifragile/
12:51 < TMA> christianbundy: the most immediately useful & versatile "trade" is blacksmithing
12:52 < christianbundy> I'd be interested in seeing a graph where blacksmithing is the common bottleneck.
12:52 < christianbundy> But again, you'd need to enumerate the dependency trees before declaring most common nodes.
12:52 < L29Ah> christianbundy: my point was that we're living short enough today to call it a crisis as people don't have time to accumulate knowledge and excel at understanding each other and pushing the limits of science and technology
12:53 < TMA> christianbundy: the knife is probably the most useful and versatile tool ever invented
12:53 < christianbundy> L29Ah: do you mean that our life expectancy is currently too short for that?
12:53 < kanzure> christianbundy: perhaps wait around for fenn to answer your questions; he and i were the two primaries on skdb back then.
12:54 < kanzure> christianbundy: the others are not necessarily sold on the feasibility of mechanical self-replication
12:55 < christianbundy> kanzure: Thanks, that would be really neat. Are you working on anything similar now? I'm not sure whether this is an interest that I'll actually have to follow through on or if I'll see why it's not The Thing.
12:55 < kanzure> not presently no
12:55 < kanzure> if you can't wait, there's lots of discussion about this in the logs that you can search through http://gnusha.org/logs/
12:56 < kanzure> presumably the later discussions are more the kind of summary you are looking for (e.g., i think someone was in here in 2017 and 2018 asking about it)
12:56 < christianbundy> kanzure: I'll skim, but I'll also hang around too. No rush on my end. Thanks for the pointers.
13:00 < TMA> christianbundy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs8DNFOxYen3kuj87aWKG9g and some of the related videos that youtube kindly suggests have the basics covered
13:04 < TMA> christianbundy: the early iron age (~1100 BC) is probably the newest you can progress on your own
13:06 < christianbundy> TMA: what does "on your own" mean in that context?
13:11 < TMA> christianbundy: it means alone, without the help of an organized society
13:12 < christianbundy> TMA: I don't think that's a constraint I'm trying to work within, I'm explicitly interested in community self-reliance.
13:12 < TMA> christianbundy: (I have taken the liberty of asuming a healthy person of non-negligible upper body strength)
13:13 < TMA> otherwise the limit shall be revised downward
13:15 < TMA> christianbundy: any community has the awful property of being constituted from people pursuing differing agendas
13:16 < TMA> the gain from another pair of hands diminishes rather quickly (the second person is ~10-25% productivity boost, ...)
13:19 < TMA> in any group you spend most of the time making other members happy (or rather happy with you) rather than producing anything of a somewhat longer term value
14:01 < fenn> TMA you are such a pessimist it's embarrassing
14:06 < fenn> heh "save $2.00 by making an apple from scratch in 6 years"
14:06 < fenn> ingredients should be: dirt, water, sunlight, CO2
14:07 < fenn> apple seed
14:10 < L29Ah> 6 years sounds optimistic
14:12 < TMA> fenn: I don't feel like a pessimist.
14:14 < fenn> christianbundy: how did you end up here if not by reading about SKDB?
14:15 < fenn> i have been thinking about making a more realistic than usual video game about technology dependencies
14:16 < fenn> it would be nice to have some people to play with in an incomplete state
14:16 < fenn> not really convinced that collaboration from the start is useful though
14:17 < fenn> the idea here is that it's a way to get people to contribute data about machines and materials etc
14:17 < fenn> "why can't i build ..." "patches welcome"
14:26 < christianbundy> fenn: hi!
14:26 < fenn> it would also include survival mechanics such as nutrition and disease, and various game modes, e.g. primitive technology in an australian rainforest, build a laptop in ancient rome with a basic, 3D print stuff at the local coffee shop and order parts from amazon, and so on
14:27 < christianbundy> fenn: I originally went to #bootstrappable and Darius sent me over here
14:28 < fenn> oh. i don't remember why xentrac left
14:28 < christianbundy> fenn: I think that's wise, a bit of cunningham's law goes a long way
14:29 < fenn> how did you get to #bootstrappable? (first i've heard of it)
14:31 < christianbundy> fenn: I'm a p2p software developer who recently realized that building my own software from source is Technically Possible but my OS isn't designed for it
14:31 < fenn> NIST had a set of industrial reactions and their products, displayed as a series of flowcharts
14:32 < christianbundy> I turned Arch Linux into 'basically Gentoo' (which made the arch devs unhappy, try !christianbundy in the #archlinux chat) but when I started hitting circular dependencies I hit despair
14:32 < fenn> uh, you mean, "and then knowing the exact sequence of bits is what i intended it to be, and not including any NSA trojans"?
14:33 < christianbundy> right, *plus* the whole "I have source code but no compiler -- how do you compile a compiler without a compiler?"
14:33 < fenn> there's something called tinycc which you can theoretically compile by hand (with a pencil and paper) and then make some circuit board with a lot of jumper banks to input it, or something like that
14:34 < fenn> and then you use tinycc to compile gcc
14:34 < TMA> I tried to write a compiler once in sed
14:34 < fenn> and then use gcc to compile gcc again
14:34 < christianbundy> dunno if you already clicked this, but http://bootstrappable.org/
14:34 < TMA> it was rather cumbersome
14:34 < christianbundy> this is the dep graph that Guix uses: http://bootstrappable.org/images/gcc-mesboot0.png
14:34 < christianbundy> kinda clever
14:35 < christianbundy> ANYWAY, yes, the TinyCC approach is a really smart move
14:36 < christianbundy> but my obsession around bootstrapping and circular dependencies jumped to the physical world, and now I'm interested in whether there are similar tricks for bootstrapping 21st century prosperity
14:38 < christianbundy> fenn: any chance you have a link to those NIST flowcharts?
14:38 < christianbundy> TMA: that sounds very painful, was it fun?
14:39 < TMA> christianbundy: yes, for like two days straight, then it was not fun at all
14:39 < TMA> needless to say I did not get even past the preprocessor
14:40 < TMA> (the fun part was to make it with the hpux sed, which does not have an arbitrary length hold buffer)
14:43 < fenn> unfortunately i've used so many of these NIST databases i can't depend on "that sounds familiar" to find it
14:51 < christianbundy> fenn: do you still work on skdb? and if not, have you written about what you've moved on to (or why)?
14:51 < fenn> alright i can't find the nist thing
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14:52 < fenn> i'm still emotionally invested in something like it existing, but i find it hard to work on anything at all, and also i got sort of burned out on SKDB like 10 years ago and got distracted with other stuff
14:53 < fenn> i was somewhat pissed that i had to do so much groundwork that i had assumed academia had done already
14:53 < fenn> defining ontologies, determining what are the type of specification of a particular machine
14:54 < fenn> not just entering data from a brochure, but like, figuring out what we even are going to measure
14:55 < fenn> it's like eveybody just forgot that engineering was a discipline
14:55 < fenn> the standard in industry seems to be "my uncle like brand X" or "they had a really good salesman"
14:56 < fenn> you can't actually compare anything by its specs
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15:02 < lsneff> Seems like you got to convince some young, impressionable PhD student to pursue that.
15:03 < TMA> nah, t
15:03 < fenn> i've come across various lists of processes but there doesn't seem to be any framework for understanding manufacturing that is really universal
15:03 < TMA> nah, 'twould be just another half-done half-useless prototype
15:04 < kanzure> there is no source code, the runtime is unbootstrapable, the execution is nondeterministic, absolutely everything has subtle differences in how it's put together
15:04 < fenn> christianbundy: i'm poking around in my old gingery machine tools wiki and was reminded of "the foundations of mechanical accuracy" by wayne moore
15:06 < fenn> https://archive.org/details/FoundationsOfMechanicalAccuracy
15:07 < christianbundy> fenn: thanks!
15:08 < fenn> aforementioned wiki still has some good stuff that has disappeared from the internet, e.g. http://fennetic.net/machines/scraping.html
15:09 < fenn> "CREATING LONG STRAIGHT EDGES WITH HANDHELD POWER TOOLS"
15:09 < fenn> most of this stuff is only relevant once you've achieved a roughly roman level of technology
15:11 < fenn> there are some technologies that were never really very popular for reasons of the particular economic structure of the time, like for example concrete machine tools
15:11 < fenn> a cast iron machine tool is much more difficult to make, but it will outperform a concrete machine by a small amount, and somehow that makes it completely dominate the landscape
15:12 < fenn> they made a lot of concrete machines in germany after WW2 to replace the bombed out factories, and there was a good bit of development on it and then everybody forgot
15:14 < fenn> if you want to be able to make predictions about what is an is not possible, you need to define the starting conditions. and i think it's unrealistic to land in an unpopulated, green-grass temperate zone with lots of mineral deposits and no existing industrial artifacts at all
15:14 < christianbundy> fenn: really silly question, how do I solve the 'No module named skdb' error when checking out your code?
15:15 < fenn> you have to set the PYTHONPATH environment variable to include the skdb directory
15:15 < christianbundy> wait nvm I just saw that the last commit was from 2014, sorry
15:16 < fenn> more like 2010
15:16 < christianbundy> does it basically output YAML when you get it to work?
15:17 < fenn> yes. it mostly does parsing of data files in a particular format, and also there's some stuff that usees opencascade (cad library) to randomly glue lego bricks together according to the data in one of those files
15:19 < christianbundy> that's really, really cool
15:19 < christianbundy> wish I was around this project in 2010
15:20 < fenn> is there a screenshot of the lego thing somewhere? i can't seem to find it
15:22 < fenn> its here http://fennetic.net/portfolio/
15:22 < fenn> i should probably move those to the skdb wiki huh
15:27 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/images/lego_snapping4.png
15:30 < fenn> where are the packages hosted? i maintain that removing lego and bolts from the main repo was a bad idea
15:31 < fenn> bitcoin eating the internet
15:32 < fenn> and what the hell is that blue animal with all the arms anyway
15:34 < kanzure> fenn: https://diyhpl.us/cgit/
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16:58 < fenn> ok i added some screenshots and got rid of the ugly gnusha thing that i never liked anyway
17:22 < nmz787> aww
17:22 < nmz787> I loved that
17:25 < fenn> put it on your own page then :P
17:25 < nmz787> I asked for the full-res source
17:26 < nmz787> but (heath?) didn't know where they put it
17:29 < fenn> http://gnusha.org/skdb/images/gnusha.svg http://gnusha.org/skdb/images/gnusha.png
17:32 < lsneff> What is that supposed to be?
17:36 < fenn> gnusha, the god of open hardware, or something like that
17:38 < fenn> some kind of hooved horned multi-limbed mammal
17:42 < lsneff> That seems reminiscent of hindu gods.
17:43 < fenn> indeed
17:50 < fenn> ah dammit this html i've been editing for the past hour was generated from markdown
18:07 < nmz787> yeah I always assumed it was ganesh mixed with the genie from Diddy Kong Racing
18:07 < nmz787> https://donkeykong.fandom.com/wiki/Taj_the_Genie
18:07 < nmz787> I guess also mixed with a yak
18:07 < nmz787> got that gnu sort of thing going on in the mix
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18:15 < fenn> the image title "gnusha the multiply talented cash cow" makes me think it may have been a logo for the design/engineering studio we were talking about forming at the time
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--- Log closed Tue Aug 11 00:00:47 2020