--- Log opened Fri Aug 28 00:00:01 2020
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05:23 < redlegion> fear is one hell of a motivator, and to uneducated masses it's not hard to cultivate fear of nuclear after three mile island, chernobyl, and fukushima.
05:24 < fenn> oh bullshit. the nuclear energy accidents by themselves had trivial consequences in terms of actual deaths and damage. the fear derives from the decades long cold war and thread of global annihilation through war
05:24 < redlegion> sure, but also the inability to return to the land surrounding the sites in question. it's kind of hard to swallow unusable acreage for a few hundred years.
05:25 < fenn> people are living in hiroshima just fine
05:25 < redlegion> sure, but that's a drop in the bucket compared to the few hundred or so rods in reactor four, right?
05:26 < redlegion> nuclear is great and all, but it seems to be far better for nuclear regulatory agencies and nuclear businesses than for the end consumer
05:26 < redlegion> </piss_take>
05:27 < fenn> the reason nuclear is so expensive is because of decades of lobbying by petrochemical shills (a.k.a. "environmentalists") to drive up regulation to an insane degree
05:28 < redlegion> that's probably true, but the way it's perceived is more important than the reality, arguably
05:28 < fenn> it's pretty much impossible to get anything nuclear done in the USA which is why almost all new development is being done elsewhere now
05:28 < fenn> it really rubs me the wrong way when a bully comes along and then people blame the victim for being bullied
05:28 < fenn> which is what you're doing
05:29 < redlegion> people see mounting regulatory costs as an indicator of how risky it is, not that lobbyists have succeeded in raising fears
05:30 < redlegion> the benefit outweighs the cost for me, i'm not opposed to nuclear energy
05:30 < redlegion> i'm the kind of person who wants to visit chernobyl, honestly
05:31 < redlegion> it just doesn't look like the public opinion is going to change much here in the US
05:31 < redlegion> we can't even keep ridiculous conspiracy theories out of the mainstream, like QAnon
05:31 < redlegion> or climate science denial
05:31 < redlegion> or vaccine science denial
05:32 < redlegion> the US is far from the hopeful space-faring nation it once hoped to be
05:32 < fenn> i'm going to go a bit meta and say that there's a conspiracy to generate lots of conspiracies
05:32 < fenn> er, conspiracy theories
05:32 < fenn> probably both
05:33 < fenn> postmodernism is a soviet strategic psy-op
05:35 < fenn> russia is still a hopeful space-faring nation, china is still a hopeful space-faring nation
05:35 < fenn> they don't swallow their own poison
05:36 < fenn> the soviet union may have dissolved, but it's still the same people in power. ffs putin was the head of the KGB
05:38 < fenn> ok not the head
05:38 < fenn> anyway it's not like everyone just forgot
05:39 < redlegion> completely agree
05:40 < redlegion> and it is incredibly depressing to see it work so efficiently
05:40 < redlegion> it means we can't have nice things
06:02 < TMA> the conspiracy to generate lots of conspiracy theories sounds remarkably like the method described in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion
06:05 < TMA> [which by itself does not invalidate it. Russia is indeed known for proliferating and/or creating lies to further its goals.]
06:07 < TMA> on the other hand, the propaganda/conspiracy theory can be made to serve diverse interest, hence there are many actors doing it
06:10 < TMA> with nuclear energy the group of people harmed by the anti-nuclear narrative a lot is negligible
06:11 < TMA> that it precludes a minor increase in well-being for the rest of us is irrelevant -- trying to change that costs us more than the gain
06:15 < TMA> $10 per taxpayer embezzled from the taxes is quite insignificant for each taxpayer but it profits the embezzler immensely; there will be not enough of a pushback
07:28 < fenn> i guess this means you don't think climate change is a threat
07:28 < fenn> i certainly wouldn't call it "negligible"
07:40 < Urchin[emacs]> you mean easily ignored?
07:45 < fenn> currently i am surrounded on three sides by wildfires and my refrigerator died due to the heat wave and keeping the windows shut due to smoke
07:46 < fenn> so it's not seeming like a hypothetical at this point
07:48 < fenn> also i was offline for about a week waiting for a replacement laptop power supply, caused by a power surge when they turned the power off
07:49 < fenn> armchair analysts on slashdot blame it on the state's over-reliance on solar power, and a lack of baseload supply in the wake of shutting down diablo canyon
07:49 < fenn> the power surge may have been what started the fridge on its death spiral as well
07:51 < fenn> it's affecting my life whether i want to ignore it or not
08:09 < strages> know your escape route, make sure it's clear, leave the fridge it's not worth it
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10:17 < TMA> fenn: that's not what I am saying. I am saying that the negative effect on me personally is negligible in comparision to the negative effect that I would personally incur if I were to thwart it (as opposed to ineffectually _attempting_ to thwart it)
10:21 < TMA> the only viable method for an individual seems to be to reduce human population. that avenue is fraught with hazards, especially if the actor does not plan to be part of the reduced part
10:22  * TMA does not consider that a viable strategy of a lesser cost than just suffer the climate change
10:24 < TMA> fenn: to sum up in layman terms: it is preferrable for me to suffer a bit from the climate change than to engineer and perform a truly massive killing spree
10:26 < TMA> [arguably there is the possibility to become a world leader -- but the skillset necessary seems to be at odds to still care for the world afterwards]
10:35 < fenn> holy fuck where do you get off saying "the only way to solve it is mass murder"
10:35 < fenn> have you even been paying attention?
10:39 < fenn> spending a few months campaigning for nuclear regulation reform is way less difficult than spending your life in prison
10:39 < TMA> fenn: the problem with global warming is there are people around in a quantity so great that the planet cannot soak their emissions
10:39 < fenn> then stop making emissions
10:39 < fenn> it's not an either/or
10:39 < TMA> == die
10:39 < fenn> this is the TOTALIZING MINDSET i am talking about
10:40 < fenn> fix your broken perceptions
10:40 < TMA> going nuclear just makes more energy readily available
10:40 < TMA> that has never reduced consumption
10:41 < fenn> why would carbon emissions go up when carbon-free energy costs less?
10:42 < TMA> have you observed how people react to comparatively cleaner/healthier/better/... resources<
10:42 < TMA> ?
10:43 < TMA> they just use more of them in such manner that even if the pollution per unit goes down the total pollution goes up
10:43 < fenn> from what i've seen they pay 5x more for the virtue signaling opportunity
10:47 < TMA> (a) most people are not rich enough to engage in such signalling (b) those that are are still not motivated to _BE_ virtuous but merely in signalling the virtue
10:54 < TMA> the resources are limited. if you think about the long term prospects, it is better to reduce the consumption rate to let them last longer
10:55 < TMA> reducing the number of humans reduces the consumption rate
10:57 < TMA> and that means we are fucked
11:00 < TMA> I am not all that much attached to my own life, but I cannot be bothered to actively seek to end it. I gather most other people actively prefer their lives to continue.
11:03 < fenn> we are nowhere near even earth-bound resource limits
11:03 < fenn> http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/index.html
11:03 < fenn> if you end up killing yourself, please leave other people out of it
11:04 < fenn> and you should see a psychiatrist
11:04 < TMA> if this were true, there would be no climate change
11:04 < TMA> ability to soak up our pollution is a resource too
11:05 < fenn> i don't agree
11:05 < TMA> with what? with it being a resource or with it being exceeded?
11:06 < fenn> it's not a resource. thinking things will magically disappear just because the world is big turned out to be incorrect
11:07 < fenn> it's like a flat earth world view
11:09 < fenn> "The battle to feed all of humanity is over. In the 1970's and 1980's hundreds of millions of people will starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now." - Paul Ehrlich wrote that in the beginning of his 1968 The Population Bomb.
11:09 < fenn> you're joining a long line of doomsayers who did everything they could to avoid looking at things as a challenge to be overcome rather than an inevitability
11:14 < TMA> well, considering what looks like a solution to me, I think ... ;-P
11:17 < fenn> before you go murdering a bunch of innocent people, consider that doing so would help delegitimize the environmental movement, and provide a rationale for heavy-handedly dealing with civil disobedience (e.g. against climate change demonstrations)
11:18 < fenn> ultimately the small amount of carbon emissions reduction would be worth less than the PR disaster, to say nothing of the value of the human lives
11:19 < fenn> every green fanatic organization has already done this calculation and come to the conclusion that it's not worth it
11:21 < fenn> go pray for more abortion clinics instead
11:22 < fenn> this conversation is super lame, and i'm done
11:22 < fenn> read jmc's page on progress (linked above) for my stance, if you even care
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11:42 < Llamamoe> What's going on?
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12:23 < TMA> Llamamoe: just /me not being optimistic enough to blend into the environment
12:32 < Llamamoe> TMA: I'm pessimistic myself, but the sad truth is that pessimism really tends to reinforce its own underlying negativity
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12:34 < TMA> according to research, depression seems to force people suffering it make more realistic predictions (counteract optimism bias)
12:34 < TMA> I would argue it is not pesimism that is self-reinforcing
12:35 < TMA> it is pesimism that let's you be more realistic in your outlooks and the reality reinforces the pesimism
12:35 < lsneff> I was afk for two days and wtf happened here
12:36 < TMA> sorry, I usually try to shut up, because no one is keen to be spoken to by a pessimist
12:37 < TMA> I tried to rectify the inaccurate observation that I do not think climate change is a threat
12:38 < lsneff> It's not that I disagree with being pessimistic or even expressing pessimism, but it's pretty obvious that the right thing to do right now is to be pessimistic. It's a boring take.
12:42 < Llamamoe> TMA: I've come across that study and that's a gross misinterpretation that has nothing to do with intrusive thoughts
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12:59 < TMA> sorry for the inconvenience.
13:02 < TMA> it is all pointless and cannot be helped for there is no agency in the universe
13:05 < TMA> knowing that is hurtful and has no great benefits, please disregard the possibility that I am right, if you are able.
13:06 < TMA> but that wish is also a meaningless interaction between different parts of the universal wavefunction
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13:54 < TMA> fenn: I have read the page. it is probably technologicaly feasible to sustain even more people; however, the society uses something like gradient descent for its own change, the point might not be reachable from the current
13:59 < TMA> I also vaguely remember the propaganda that was rampant in the soviet bloc before the collapse. the technooptimism was the same.
14:01 < TMA> I tend to discount such claims. the reality was shortage of everything
14:15 < Llamamoe> The real issue with humanity's gradient descent is its value function as defined by capitalism
14:16 < Llamamoe> Our civilization explicitly values producing and selling 10,000 copies of something higher than having 100 copies to be shared across people as needed
14:16 < Llamamoe> And when people have what they need, they need to need new things
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17:12 < bsm117532> What no discussion of Neuralink? Or did I miss it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOWFXqT5MZ4
17:13 < jrayhawk> funny, i was literally just looking through the logs to find that link
17:13 < jrayhawk> thank you
17:34 < lsneff> That's a room of some very smart people.
17:38 < bsm117532> Dunno. I was talking about this precise topic 20 years ago, and nothing has changed. I appreciate Musk kicking at it. It's not even very hard, but the medical devices industry is a complete and total dumpster fire.
17:38 < bsm117532> When I went for my Ph.D. it was literally a choice between the Neuralink path and physics for me.
17:46 < lsneff> What did you end up doing?
17:52 < bsm117532> theoretical particle physics
17:55 < bsm117532> My roommate during grad school was doing a neuro Ph.D. though. At the time the prevailing wisdom was that neuro was "papers by catalog" -- pick up a catalog of devices, pick one, point it at a brain.
17:55 < bsm117532> 20 years ago there were far more devices than people able to use them.
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17:56 < bsm117532> It seems it's still true. I love the discussion of 2-photon microscopy, it's a topic I discussed at length with my roommate and wanted to use on brains. The reason "why not" came down to lack of expertise, as far as I'm aware.
17:57 < bsm117532> On these topics, we don't even have the data and can't get it. Elon is just showing how to frickin' gather data is all. The real revolutions come once you have it.
17:58 < bsm117532> (if anyone here wants me to explain how 2-photon spectroscopy works I can...it's cool, non-invasive measurement tech)
18:07 < lsneff> I for one, would like to see an explanation of 2-photon microscopy.
18:08 < jrayhawk> is this bob
18:09 < jrayhawk> Ah, yes. Hadn't realized. Hello!
18:15 < bsm117532> lsneff: I'll leave you with this for now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-photon_excitation_microscopy
18:16 < bsm117532> It's a way to excite/read very, very specific molecules via their electronic transitions using not one, but *two* lasers tuned such that the sum of their energies targets the desired molecule.
18:18 < bsm117532> The problem in biological tissues is generally scattering of light by the tissue itself, which broadens the wavelength spectrum of a laser shined into it. This is generally used in thin-film slices.
18:18 < bsm117532> Using multiphoton absorption this strongly suppresses background from scattering.
18:20 < bsm117532> If scattering can be dealt with, it's a great way to target specific locations in 3-d (e.g. the location where the lasers intersect)
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18:26 < jrayhawk> hah, musk buried the lede to the end of the stream about this fundamentally being about humanist outcomes in the race between transhumanism and AI singularity. i guess he's trying to avoid being lampooned in the moderate press for x-risk talk.
18:26 < jrayhawk> funny how soft that needs to be sold
18:39 < bsm117532> BTW, back in the late 90's when I was on the transhumanism mailing list with Anders, I read a book that influenced me heavily and I've been unable to find again.
18:40 < bsm117532> The plot revolved around a character who was "murdered" putting a big hole through his brain, followed by a cylindrical computer implant and some verbiage about applying molecular dyes to detect nerve endings, which were then stitched to the implanted computer by a robot.
18:41 < bsm117532> IIRC it was a murder mystery and half the plot was figuring out who killed him (her?) and they needed his brain to do it.
18:41 < bsm117532> If it rings a bell for anyone, I'd love to find the book again.
18:45 < kanzure> so apparently it's just compressed brain tissue not missing brain tissue https://old.reddit.com/r/medizzy/comments/ifrp9e/mri_scans_of_a_boy_born_with_only_2_of_his_brain/
18:45 < kanzure> in hydrocephaly.
18:46 < kanzure> bsm117532: anders is quite the disappointment now
18:46 < bsm117532> Meh, that's where I got started on this topic. ;-)
18:47 < bsm117532> But yeah, given that I was spitballing about Neuralink over 20 years ago...I'm disappointed that field hasn't gotten further.
18:47 < kanzure> pretty wild that he is literally using the utah array as a comparable
18:48 < kanzure> actually, i wonder why he's doing that, didn't thomas burgess do those monkey hippocampus implants that were at least more effective?
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19:14 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=6df4a8c4 Bryan Bishop: neuralink transcript >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/2020-08-28-neuralink/
19:15 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=a98330db Michael Folkson: Add Socratic on Signet >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/london-bitcoin-devs/2020-08-19-socratic-seminar-signet/
19:15 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=1f506280 Bryan Bishop: Merge pull request #150 from michaelfolkson/add-signet-socratic >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/
19:17 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1299531437503328256
19:17 < saxo> Transcript of @elonmusk's demo of the @Neuralink progress update https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/2020-08-28-neuralink/ (@kanzure)
19:21 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=cc377227 Bryan Bishop: add attribution >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/2020-08-28-neuralink/
19:22 < kanzure> oops i meant theodore berger not burgess
19:40 < kanzure> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24311152
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20:15 < lsneff> kanzure: doing compute with instrumented brains is an interesting idea
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20:23 < kanzure> yes, well, needs to be tested and such
20:23 < kanzure> i think dr-orlovsky is trying something along those lines
20:26 < kanzure> hm this does not seem to be publicly documented
20:27 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/dr_orlovsky/status/1145069313243734016
20:27 < saxo> I am proposing a new term: computationally-efficient forms of matter. For instance, brain matter is more computationally-efficient than modern CPUs and GPUs, or even ASICs. (@dr_orlovsky)
20:28 < kanzure> dr-orlovsky: ping
20:37 < lsneff> Computronium is the term, I believe.
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--- Log closed Sat Aug 29 00:00:02 2020