--- Log opened Sun Oct 18 00:00:50 2020
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08:49 < lsneff> .t https://gitlab.com/ChristianHeinemann/alien/
08:49 < saxo> Projects · Christian Heinemann / alien · GitLab
08:49 < lsneff> "alien is a GPU-based physics engine focused on demands for artificial life computations. It contains a software tool designed to simulate digital organisms embedded in artificial ecosystems and to mimic conditions for (pre-)biotic evolution."
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11:24 < nsh> where's scihub at?
11:39 < kanzure> nsh: https://sci-hub.st/
11:40 < archels> sci-hub.se
11:40 < nsh> ah cool
11:40 < nsh> .tw stopped working
11:40 < nsh> ty
11:41 < archels> I don't understand why it's not tor-first
11:42 < kanzure> http://wipuhgkbsj7z7pixtgnt5xbdqbhfigdq7ctgg3vlu5csikfyklnv2sqd.onion/
11:44 < archels> woah, Google docs now gives me automatic word completion suggestions when I type English?
11:44 < archels> are they running GPT-3 on my personalised dataset?
11:48 < archels> OK, it looks like I'm behind the times and they're only just rolling this out in my region. they call it "smart compose"
11:48 < kanzure> that's been around for a while yes
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11:55 < lsneff> It's in gmail as well
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12:22 < archels> this is scaring me a little. I think I'll turn it off now
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14:47 < kanzure> "key-value commitments" https://eprint.iacr.org/2020/1161.pdf
15:04 < kanzure> "Photon-directed multiplexed enzymatic DNA synthesis for molecular digital data storage" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18681-5
15:05 < fenn> hey
15:05 < kanzure> "we report a multiplexed enzymatic DNA synthesis method using maskless photolithography. Rapid uncaging of Co2+ ions by patterned UV light activates Terminal deoxynucleotidyl Transferase (TdT) for spatially-selective synthesis on an array surface. Spontaneous quenching of reactions by the diffusion of excess caging molecules confines synthesis to light patterns and controls the extension ...
15:05 < kanzure> ...length. We show that our multiplexed synthesis method can be used to store digital data by encoding 12 unique DNA oligonucleotide sequences with video game music, which is equivalent to 84 trits or 110 bits of data."
15:05 < kanzure> fenn: yes?
15:06 < fenn> um, don't mind me
15:11 < kanzure> tantalizing
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15:50 < kanzure> "Lef1 expression in fibroblasts maintains developmental potential in adult skin to regenerate wounds" https://elifesciences.org/articles/60066
15:51 < kanzure> "Using scRNA-seq to probe unsorted cells from regenerating, scarring, homeostatic, and developing skin, we identified neonatal papillary fibroblasts that form a transient regenerative cell type that promotes healthy skin regeneration in young skin. These fibroblasts are defined by the expression of a canonical Wnt transcription factor Lef1 and using gain- and loss of function genetic mouse ...
15:52 < kanzure> ...models, we demonstrate that Lef1 expression in fibroblasts primes the adult skin macroenvironment to enhance skin repair, including regeneration of hair follicles with arrector pili muscles in healed wounds."
16:11 < kanzure> magazine scans https://github.com/Extropians/Extropy
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16:54 < lsneff> From back when it seemed like the singularity was just 10 years away.
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16:57 < fenn> the singularity is always just 10 (subjective) years away
16:59 < fenn> as you approach the technological event horizon, subjective time speeds up
17:00 < L29Ah> yeah, Santa have promised singularity
17:24 < kanzure> should we expect a singularity to happen without people working to make it happen
17:39 < L29Ah> how do i tell if it happened already?
17:52 < lsneff> Does the singularity have to be an actual moment in time, or can it be gradual?
17:52 < fenn> as you pass through the singularity, an infinite amount of subjective time passes
17:55 < fenn> it seems odd to think that uploaded minds running billions of times faster than a biological human might suddenly have qualms about moving to femtotech hardware, but that's basically where we are today
17:55 < fenn> progress is not guaranteed
17:57 < fenn> i generally dislike using concepts of infinity but in this case it's sort of part of the definition
17:58 < lsneff> That's the correct definition of singularity, but I suspect there will never be a specific singularity event in the real world. The ratio of subjective time (and the many different things that means) to wall-clock time will increase over time.
17:59 < fenn> the other definition in general use (which is not exclusive to the previous definition) is that it's impossible to predict the outcome of passing through a singularity
17:59 < fenn> i feel like we already had something like a singularity in 1969
18:00 < L29Ah> wats subjective time
18:00 < fenn> and then everyone's heads kinda exploded and they all went to hide in a dark corner for a while until the hangover wore off, and that was the 1970s
18:01 < lsneff> I'm not sure what's special about 1969, in this context, other than the moon landing and being the year before the unix epoch.
18:01 < fenn> just a whole lot of stuff happened all at once
18:01 < fenn> as part of a series of increasing trends in technology and society
18:03 < fenn> and those trends could have continued increasing at increasing rates
18:04 < lsneff> They did. Computing power went exponential for a few decades after that.
18:04 < fenn> yeah that's the only one that continued
18:05 < lsneff> Maybe everything else had to wait for that to reach a certain point.
18:06 < lsneff> We're back on track with space it seems.
18:07 < lsneff> Computing is a massive force multiplier for literally every other field.
18:08 < fenn> since then air travel has only marginally increased, civil rights are basically at a standstill or regressing, nuclear technology development has practically stopped, neurological self modification has continued but very slowly
18:08 < fenn> every technology is a force multiplier
18:09 < fenn> that's the whole point
18:09 < lsneff> You're right, that's true.
18:09 < fenn> it used to be that whoever had the most guys at a battle was the winner
18:09 < fenn> precision machine tooling has gotten better, slowly
18:10 < fenn> by about 2 orders of magnitude precision per dollar
18:10 < fenn> i feel like it mostly comes down to investment
18:11 < fenn> either you (as a society) invest in technologies and the people that develop them, or nothing new happens
18:13 < lsneff> So, where are we at now? Are things still moving forward or have they stalled?
18:13 < fenn> oh things are moving forward, it's just not that impressive, and it feels like most people don't even want progress
18:14 < fenn> "modernism" was the idea that society should make progress, and that was a good thing
18:14 < fenn> now we have "post modernism" where everything is shit and you're a bad person for doing anything at all
18:14 < fenn> not everybody shares the attitude
18:16 < fenn> i think investment in science and technology development could go up by several orders of magnitude
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18:17 < fenn> corporate research & development has become unfashionable, and people who supposedly act on behalf of shareholders prefer short term gains
18:18 < fenn> government big science institutions have transitioned to one-big-project as a way to spend tax dollars in your own district, as opposed to furthering science
18:18 < fenn> basically, people have figured out how to game the system
18:19 < fenn> it would be impossible to get funding for "the geophysical year" now
18:19 < fenn> bell labs would never get funding or be free to pursue what they thought was important
18:21 < fenn> academics now spend way more energy publishing papers (to keep up their metrics) and writing grant proposals (to keep up their funding) than they do on actual science
18:23 < lsneff> What a bleak painting you draw.
18:25 < kanzure> so anyway, if you want a hard take-off you have to work for it
18:25 < fenn> er, i don't think that's what that word means
18:26 < kanzure> i think i've assumed for quite a while that when people talk about singularities they are talking about takeoff scenarios
18:27 < fenn> "hard take-off" is where an AI magically bootstraps itself
18:27 < lsneff> I don't want a hard takeoff scenario.
18:27 < fenn> the only hard work there is setting up the system in the first place
18:27 < kanzure> "A hard takeoff (or an AI going "FOOM"[2]) refers to AGI expansion in a matter of minutes, days, or months"
18:27 < kanzure> hrm
18:27 < lsneff> That'd be exciting, but...
18:27 < fenn> it's more like a parameter of the universe or math itself
18:28 < fenn> not something we have control over
18:28 < fenn> it's like saying "if you want your nuclear bomb to go prompt critical, you're going to have to work for it"
18:28 < fenn> i mean, yeah it takes work to build the bomb
18:28 < kanzure> yes, you have to build a functional nuclear bomb
18:29 < kanzure> but instead we have people just talking about how interesting nukes are
18:29 < fenn> there are other ways to dig large holes in the ground or burn forests
18:30 < lsneff> Well, back in the 40s, the scientists at Los Alamos at least had some idea of how to build a nuke.
18:30 < kanzure> and there are ideas floating around for biological superintelligence
18:30 < fenn> mister president, we must not let there be another jew gap!
18:31 < fenn> i mean, that's basically why germany never developed nuclear weapons
18:31 < fenn> not enough "martians"
18:32 < kanzure> now that ssc has removed its martian article, can we go back to pretending they were really martians
18:32 < fenn> yes
18:32 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Martians_(scientists)
18:32 < kanzure> https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/05/26/the-atomic-bomb-considered-as-hungarian-high-school-science-fair-project/
18:34 < fenn> we could just clone von neumann
18:34 < kanzure> shameful to admit but i don't have the infoproc link handy
18:35 < kanzure> "My current estimate is that 100-200 common mutations (affecting only a small subset of the thousands of loci that influence intelligence) are what separate an ordinary person from a von Neumann." http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2012/03/only-he-was-fully-awake.html
18:36 < kanzure> "He was buried at Princeton Cemetery in Princeton, Mercer County, New Jersey.[217]"
18:36 < kanzure> you know what must be done.
18:36 < fenn> can't we just sequence some old mail envelopes
18:38 < fenn> well maybe it's not just the number of martians but the institutions that allow them to function effectively
18:40 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori_Perelman  there was some horrible news story about perelman refusing a million dollars and living in squalor, but i can't be bothered to find it
18:44 < fenn> "Of course, there are many mathematicians who are more or less honest. But almost all of them are conformists. They are more or less honest, but they tolerate those who are not honest. ... It is not people who break ethical standards who are regarded as aliens. It is people like me who are isolated."
18:44 < lsneff> I'm trying to figure out why I feel distressed when talking about intelligence.
18:44 < fenn> because society is engaged in all out culture war, and the idea that intelligence exists is a major battle (being lost by people who believe in intelligence fwiw)
18:45 < fenn> go read up on lysenkoism
18:45 < fenn> also the word is poorly defined in general, almost as bad as "consciousness"
18:46 < fenn> is it biological intelligence that makes you uncomfortable? or just the general abstract notion
18:48 < lsneff> I believe it's biological intelligence, but I'm entirely sure. It's almost a notion of jealousy.
18:50 < lsneff> Ah, I've figured it out. I don't feel uncomfortable with the concept of biological intelligence, I feel uncomfortable with not being a statistical fluke.
18:51 < lsneff> Oh well, I'll figure out how to get rid of that.
18:51 < fenn> yes well that's what we're doing here
18:52 < lsneff> No, i mean, I'll figure out how to be okay with that.
18:53 < fenn> yeah i mean, making it not a statistical fluke, or modifying you so you're of equivalent cognitive performance
18:54 < fenn> it wouldn't be moral to be okay with "some people are just born poor"
18:54 < fenn> in a financial sense
18:57 < lsneff> Indeed, but it's sensible to come to terms with the fact that many families are poor. That's independent from trying to change that fact.
18:57 < fenn> sure. recognizing the problem is part of finding the solution
18:57 < fenn> measuring the problem quantitatively is even more powerful
18:58 < fenn> however, in today's america, measuring the problem quantitatively gets you labeled a nazi
18:59 < fenn> we've shifted the goalposts from equality of opportunity to equality of outcomes
18:59 < fenn> and then everyone's confused why it doesn't work
19:00 < fenn> i don't know if this is all familiar and boring
19:01 < lsneff> To me?
19:01 < fenn> yeah
19:02 < lsneff> It's somewhere in between original and familiar.
19:02 < lsneff> But individual perspectives make any idea original.
19:04 < fenn> well new ideas are exceedingly rare, so the best you can hope for is a novel mishmash of misprocessed memes
19:05 < fenn> i try to make sense, but it doesn't change the fact that i'm basically a dog tottering around on hind legs making barking noises
19:07 < fenn> i think i experience daily fluctuations in intelligence much more than other people, so it seems obvious that it exists and is real
19:07 < lsneff> Why is that?
19:07 < fenn> sleep deprivation probably
19:07 < lsneff> Ah, I experience the same thing.
19:07 < fenn> overactive stress response
19:08 < fenn> sugar addiction
19:08 < lsneff> Perhaps why I am so mediocre is because I'm constantly sleep deprived. Alas, perhaps not.
19:09 < fenn> you don't seem mediocre to me
19:09 < lsneff> Shhh, go with it
19:10 < fenn> or, well, if feeling mediocre gets you to be more productive, have fun with that
19:11 < fenn> supposedly my generation is messed up because we were all raised with the expectation that we were each special and bound for greatness
19:14 < lsneff> Haha, no it doesn't. I'm just being mopy. I, at least partially, understand my own strengths and weaknesses in terms of intelligence.
19:14 < lsneff> When I was growing up, I was put into the pot of 'gifted' students and was lazy enough to never learn how to study
19:15 < lsneff> So I screwed myself over there.
19:16 < fenn> same, but it doesn't mean that you can't learn to study
19:17 < fenn> also, it's better to just do things and go back and figure out what you need to learn in order to accomplish the task
19:18 < fenn> it's unlikely you'll end up using whatever random fact happened to be on the list you chose to study
19:18 < fenn> but if you do study, use anki
19:19 < fenn> also, talk to smart people and write down unfamiliar phrases so you can look them up later
19:20 < fenn> it turns out most complicated things are quite simple once you understand how they work
19:20 < fenn> but it's all puffed up and cloaked in fancy sounding jargon to make people feel important
19:21 < lsneff> The primary reason why I am where I am today is because I have adopted that strategy of doing and then asking questions later.
19:22 < lsneff> Also, I'll be honest, this is mostly where I talk to smart people.
19:22 < fenn> welcome to the new normal
19:25 < fenn> visit san francisco if you get a chance
19:25 < fenn> don't ask me how to make friends though, as i haven't got a clue
19:28 < lsneff> I was in sf in the spring of 2019.
19:28 < lsneff> Really enjoyed it
19:28 < fenn> what did you do?
19:28 < lsneff> I've mostly got the friend thing down, to my surprise.
19:28 < lsneff> I did some work at a webassembly startup
19:30 < lsneff> It didn't go super well because of some politics between the startup and mozilla, but I enjoyed san francisco.
19:31 < kanzure> at least a quarter of feynman is attributable to bluster and self-made anecdotes
19:33 < lsneff> Feynman was incredibly charismatic.
19:34 < fenn> he had a sense of humor
19:38 < kanzure> i mean the historical record is tainted by anecdotes
19:39 < kanzure> "Gell-Mann told Discover that eventually Feynman’s estimation of his own importance outstripped his considerable abilities. “Feynman was pretty good, although not as good as he thought he was. He was too self-absorbed and spent a huge amount of energy generating anecdotes about himself.”"
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--- Log closed Mon Oct 19 00:00:51 2020