--- Log opened Sun Oct 25 00:00:57 2020
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05:30 < fltrz> there is something very inefficient about scientific article search engines and the scientist work flow: the interface to the search engine should be API, and we need the users library software to eliminate already acquired result papers
05:31 < fltrz> I believe it slows down science when scientist occasionally redo a query and recognize mostly the same papers without quickly being able to identify the papers not marked read / present in his library software
05:55 < fltrz> for "paper bloat" we need something like filelight but for the streams in pdf? https://ihaveapc.com/wp-content/uploads//2012/08/filelight2-1024x646.png
05:56 < fltrz> but perhaps using the hashes of streams, to find repeated streams over a large collection of pdfs
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06:22 < docl> .t https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780323461429000104
06:22 < saxo> Peptoids: tomorrow’s therapeutics - ScienceDirect
06:23 < docl> These are a different kind of protein mimickry from spiroligomers (which are also known as bis-peptides), but someone pointed me to them. I wonder what advantages either approach holds over the other.
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07:54 < fltrz> fenn, you are obviously right that every specific production process is amenable to ultimate complete automation, but science and technology never finishes, because at the frontier of human capability there will always be speculative out-of-the-box-thinking ideas, which can only be verified by testing. there is always a cost trade-off between hiring for the menial task vs the cost of designing an automated assembly / manufacture system for the
07:54 < fltrz> *novel* steps which are not yet proven to be optimal. so at the frontier there will always be menial tasks that are statistically speaking more efficient to execute as a prototype assembly vs as an automatic assembly. The menial tasks are everywhere from down on the factory floor to up till the engineer taking the prototype, putting it under a microscope / wire bonder / whatever...
07:55 < fltrz> plus I ignore the "wage slave" comment, because I believe I already stated my beliefs concerning the "system of average rent" using which there are no wage slaves, only higher-than-average-sense-of-entitlement slaves
07:59 < fltrz> want more than the average rent (total rent of all land divided by total population)? find a job and earn money on top of the unconditional average rent. satisfied with this average rent enjoy your life and hobbies, (the rent doesn't provide just housing but also food, since farmland is also rented out, and minerals because mines are also rented  out). satisfied spending less than your average rent? perhaps all the money you save up can be used when
07:59 < fltrz> you identify a suitable business model. no more leeching intermediary banks and governments conjuring excuses for taxation. no more pension saving bullshit before you know what age you will die, ...
08:02 < L29Ah> who decides on the rent price?
08:09 < docl> IMO georgism/ricardianism is an interesting lens for this kind of thing. advantages based on monopolies and proximity tend to produce revenues not totally related to productivity on part of the owner.
08:10 < docl> copyrights being an extreme case
08:12 < docl> remote work cuts into the proximity advantage by a lot, could lead to much lower amounts of rent based on location
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08:19 < fltrz> L29Ah, the market, the highest bidder gets the place
08:19 < fltrz> this seems cruel until you remember that whatever the pricing, you still receive the average rent
08:20 < L29Ah> fltrz: i got the place for 1¢, but some other human popped up and ready to pay $1000, but i don't want to give my land, how is this resolved in your world?
08:21 < fltrz> L29Ah, the question is: is it worth $1000+ a month to you? if yes, bid higher and honestly value the land, if no, then move to a cheaper plot
08:22 < fltrz> optimal subjective utilization
08:22 < L29Ah> fltrz: a month or a year or a decade or a second?
08:22 < L29Ah> who decides what time period the land is rented for?
08:23 < fltrz> L29Ah, right: the currency is not dollars, its time: you get one second every second, one month every month
08:23 < L29Ah> or can i be outbid and required to leave at any given time?
08:23 < fltrz> if you poll your account once a second it will appear you receive one average rent second every second, if you look at it once a year, it will appear to arrive at one year of average rent a year
08:24 < fltrz> L29Ah, in the naked approach you can be outbid essentially any time, but you can join group insurance at your own discretion, where the group agrees to chip in for outbidding events up to a certain point
08:25 < fltrz> stability has a price
08:25 < fltrz> always
08:25 < L29Ah> so anyone can get any land for a femtosecond just to fuck someone else up
08:26 < L29Ah> to force the party to remove its assets
08:26 < fltrz> by the time the police arrive to eject you, you are the actual owner again
08:27 < L29Ah> i tell the police the crime is going to happen and they will arrive at just the right time when i outbid the landlord
08:27 < L29Ah> lots of police ofc
08:29 < fltrz> you pay the damages of 1 femtosecond (and a half or so)
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08:29 < L29Ah> who decides on the amount of damages?
08:29 < fltrz> a better example is an a-hole who outbids you for a week
08:30 < L29Ah> in fact a better question is how you collect and redistribute the rent, but you probably don't have an interesting answer to this one
08:30 < fltrz> I believe we can arrive as a group to the relative cost of moving vs the fraction of outbidding
08:31 < fltrz> from a loss to society perspective: its a loss if your citizens are forced to pay time and money into moving unnecessarily, and its also a loss to forfeit the higher offered rent
08:32 < fltrz> at the short duration regime the first loss is much higher, and society has rules in favor of the original inhabitant, in the latter society favors the durable higher rent offered
08:33 < L29Ah> society has no consensus.
08:33 < fltrz> the timescale for stability an individual desires determines the type of insurance policy he should select
08:34 < fltrz> L29Ah, regarding consensus, thats a shift in topic, but I believe in "provably informed direct democracy", in case you want me to explain more of that let me know
08:36 < L29Ah> so a mob rule
08:36 < fltrz> define mob
08:36 < L29Ah> whatever decision is made by counting waving human bodies
08:37 < fltrz> what is waving?
08:37 < fltrz> like hand waving?
08:38 < L29Ah> like whichever method of telling YEA or NAY you choose
08:38 < fltrz> is only counting PRO votes by those who intend to vote PRO and are able to reproduce the top x arguments of the CON camp, and vice versa "counting waving human bodies"?
08:39 < L29Ah> who decides what are the top x arguments?
08:39 < fltrz> this folds democracy and legal education into one
08:39 < L29Ah> reproducing a text from a piece of paper is easy enough
08:40 < fltrz> L29Ah, great question: the top X PRO arguments are decided by the valid voters of the PRO camp recursively, so they internally disagree on how to convince the CON voters and recursively vote using provably informed democracy
08:40 < fltrz> L29Ah, provably is proctored without aids
08:41 < fltrz> so every subbranch has a strictly smaller set of voters (or else there was consensus)
08:42 < L29Ah> who decides what are aids and whether they are used?
08:42 < fltrz> if the degree of consensus tends to be high for every step down at the end theres just a few people bickering
08:42 < L29Ah> > the valid voters of the PRO camp
08:42 < L29Ah> but you need the top X CON arguments to figure out who these are
08:43 < fltrz> L29Ah, there is always a bootstrap for every new system, but ultimately the population decides what are aids etc by... you guessed it provably informed direct democracy
08:43 < L29Ah> population doesn't decide anything, it has no consensus.
08:43 < fltrz> L29Ah, yes, the first round of the discussion you study random CON arguments and vice versa
08:44 < L29Ah> how do i tell whether the vote is over and its resolution can be implemented?
08:45 < fltrz> the decision is always temporarily final, like theres no agenda of when something will be decided. i.e. there is no re-opening of a discussion its just that pro / con ratio of a branch changes over time and majority can flip (I do suggest the populace agree on using say a schmitt trigger of say 51% to debounce the law when the democracy is on the verge of changing its mind to prevent the law from rapidly oscillating
08:46 < fltrz> L29Ah, the vote is never over
08:46 < L29Ah> so there are no decisions
08:46 < fltrz> I also encourage the population to agree on rewarding successful participation (successful meaning, your vote counted, not that you won the vote)
08:47 < fltrz> yes, there is constantly a decision state
08:47 < L29Ah> a nuke can only be exploded once
08:48 < L29Ah> it can't care whether the decision is overturned a few seconds later
08:48 < fltrz> L29Ah, for example: originally it is illegal to gargle in public, and 57% wants to keep it, but due to discussions this approaches 50%, nothing happens, but when it reaches 49% the law has changed
08:49 < fltrz> yes, lol, if the populace decides to push the button, then it has pushed the button, and they can change the law to no longer push the button afterwards
08:49 < fltrz> ...
08:49 < kanzure> fltrz: for citation graph search, i think the real trick is going to be the detection and downscoring of academia-politico influence vs detection of "real" science trends
08:49 < fltrz> the debouncing is to avoid quickly toggling the law back and forth
08:49 < L29Ah> i, the populace of me, decided to push the button and hereby accept a law that requires me to press it
08:50 < L29Ah> the con arguments are "you're insane" and "fuck off" are dismissed as insubstantial
08:50 < L29Ah> pew
08:51 < fltrz> L29Ah, good for you, but the larger world wide informed democracy treats you as a danger to society in case you have the capability, or as a crank to be ignored if you don't
08:51 < fltrz> kanzure, could you cite my comment you are responding to?
08:52 < kanzure> your complaints about academic manuscript search
08:53 < fltrz> oh, I meant this: suppose I try a first query "micro EDM", then scavenge a whole bunch of them, then after actually reading a bunch of them I realize I may want to try "micro EDM method" as a query, but when doing so the search engine probably contains good results but heavily diluted in papers I simply already have
08:53 < fltrz> I don't want the search engine to know my library
08:54 < kanzure> academic privacy is underrated; many publishers include your IP address in the files you download.
08:54 < fltrz> but I want the search engine to provide standardized plaintext / csv results, so my search client can simply eliminate the papers I already have marked as read / in possession
08:55 < fltrz> kanzure, it slows me down to have to plow through all the results I recognize as already read, in order to hopefully find the paper I haven't come across yet
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09:05 < lsneff> Any of you familiar with dfinity?
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09:24 < fltrz> nope
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10:45 < lsneff> https://v.redd.it/dqtfrzp7v1v51/DASH_720.mp4
10:45 < lsneff> "The evolution of personal protection."
10:45 < chico> Imagine we've to wear those instead of masks?
10:46 < chico> That would be a total disaster.
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11:04 < fltrz> I still think theres room for improvement on the hospital type masks, because the shape of the face is so variable, but making thousands of different molds doesn't make sense
11:04 < fltrz> so I don't understand why the seal between mask and face isn't just a small thin inflatable kind of "bicycle tube"
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11:05 < fltrz> to prevent leaks with the current relatively hard plastic lining they just increase the tension on the straps and the hospital workers got deep bruises and necrosis of the facial tissues
11:08 < lsneff> Yeah, or even just some foam
11:14 < fltrz> the current masks effectively result in the facial soft tissues being abused as the conformal seal
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--- Log closed Mon Oct 26 00:00:58 2020