--- Log opened Wed Oct 28 00:00:59 2020
00:38 -!- mrdata_ [~mrdata@unaffiliated/mrdata] has joined ##hplusroadmap
00:41 -!- mrdata [~mrdata@unaffiliated/mrdata] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
00:43 < nmz787> lsneff: I've looked for liquid STM specifically before because DNA tunnelling current sequencing stuff
00:44 -!- mrdata_ is now known as mrdata
02:19 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:28 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-177-56-55.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:39 -!- sanehatter [~sanehatte@45.83.220.172] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:48 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b98:f2f2:1da0:3cc8:433a] has quit [Quit: preview]
04:08 -!- sanehatter [~sanehatte@45.83.220.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
04:20 -!- alfanabeta [~alfanabet@187.36.174.193] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:20 < alfanabeta> @Search Primary School English Grammar and Composition
04:23 -!- alfanabeta [~alfanabet@187.36.174.193] has left ##hplusroadmap []
04:55 -!- fltrz [~fltrz@109.236.129.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
07:12 -!- fltrz [~fltrz@109.236.129.101] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:32 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hapndhlsuyhyhnkk] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:22 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.9]
09:23 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:54 -!- sanehatter [~sanehatte@141.98.255.152] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:55 -!- midnight_ is now known as midnight
12:06 < lsneff> My quartz tuning forks are arriving today, hopefully I'll have time to start working with them this weekend
12:07 -!- berndj [~berndj@ns2.linksynergy.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:11 -!- berndj [~berndj@ns1.linksynergy.co.za] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:41 < kanzure> https://www.coindesk.com/avanti-financial-joins-kraken-as-a-wyoming-approved-crypto-bank
12:56 < lsneff> kanzure: congrats
13:02 -!- Alchemical_ [~al@unaffiliated/alchemical] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
13:03 -!- Alchemical [~al@unaffiliated/alchemical] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:07 -!- Alchemical [~al@unaffiliated/alchemical] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
13:23 -!- Alchemical [~al@unaffiliated/alchemical] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:25 -!- Alchemical [~al@unaffiliated/alchemical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:26 -!- Alchemical [~al@unaffiliated/alchemical] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:45 -!- Alchemical [~al@unaffiliated/alchemical] has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in]
13:47 -!- Alchemical [~al@unaffiliated/alchemical] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:55 -!- Alchemical [~al@unaffiliated/alchemical] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
13:56 -!- Alchemical [~al@unaffiliated/alchemical] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:07 -!- Alchemical_ [~al@unaffiliated/alchemical] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:08 -!- Alchemical [~al@unaffiliated/alchemical] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
14:08 -!- Alchemical_ [~al@unaffiliated/alchemical] has quit [Excess Flood]
14:11 -!- Alchemical [~al@unaffiliated/alchemical] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:28 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b98:f2f2:1da0:3cc8:433a] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:59 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: jrayhawk, sivoais
14:59 -!- jrayhawk_ [~jrayhawk@unaffiliated/jrayhawk] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:59 -!- Netsplit over, joins: sivoais
15:15 -!- balrog [~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
15:22 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-177-56-55.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:29 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
15:39 -!- balrog [~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:50 -!- balrog [~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
15:50 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
16:01 -!- filipepe [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sphnwwuamdmgttgn] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:03 -!- balrog [~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:19 -!- sanehatter [~sanehatte@141.98.255.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
16:58 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:08 -!- shawwwn [uid6132@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xggjiuztvuoxfffd] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:21 -!- filipepe [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sphnwwuamdmgttgn] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
19:00 -!- nickjohnson [sid789@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ynccmablcdbnvtxd] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
19:00 -!- cannedprimates_ [sid16585@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-copmwlgluqhlqaah] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:00 -!- cannedprimates_ [sid16585@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-luesnwddvnpeeacm] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:01 -!- pointfree [sid204397@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-heubehcssrjxvbru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
19:02 -!- nickjohnson [sid789@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-soxmshysbklelzmw] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:03 -!- pointfree [sid204397@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-whhisldxhwesgskq] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:07 < nmz787> pwd
19:07 < L29Ah> /home/l29ah
19:10 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b98:f2f2:1da0:3cc8:433a] has quit [Quit: preview]
19:24 -!- justan0theruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:26 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
19:43 < kanzure> https://us.macmillan.com/themutantproject/ebenkirksey/9781250265357
20:12 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b98:f2f2:1da0:3cc8:433a] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:13 < fenn> .tw
20:13 < saxo> Och, A cannae finde nae tweet
20:14 < fenn> oops
20:14 < fenn> pattern recognizers on overload
20:15 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b98:f2f2:1da0:3cc8:433a] has quit [Client Quit]
20:18 -!- shawwwn [uid6132@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xggjiuztvuoxfffd] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
20:18 < fenn> "The Mutant Project exposes the urgency of democratically deliberating the ethics of gene editing before the science hurtles us into a future even more resistant to social change." indeed. but they probably meant something different
20:20 < fenn> say, is there any legal penalty for falsely claiming to have genetically engineered humans? if i am not soliciting investment
20:20 < fltrz> soliciting investment of attention
20:21 < fenn> despite buzzwords like "attention economy" it's not regulated by the SEC
20:22 < fltrz> unnecessarily drawing attention (aka distraction) of say drivers can still be illegal
20:23 < fltrz> even if not under purview of SEC
20:25 < fltrz> to specifically only consider what the SEC might do yet claim to have no economical incentive?
20:26 < fenn> investment fraud is just the first thing i imagined one could be accused of
20:26 < fltrz> whats the idea by chance?
20:27 < fenn> well, we don't really have much good evidence that Lulu and Nana even exist in the first place, so there was speculation that Jiankui He may have faked the whole thing. i was wondering what the downsides to actually faking something like that would be, in the US
20:28 < fenn> it was not a technical contribution really, but it provided some impetus and precedent that such a thing is possible
20:29 < fenn> i don't really have an idea
20:31 < fltrz> why would US law matter in his case?
20:31 < fenn> because going to jail sucks?
20:32 < fltrz> but he's chinese, living in china, and is in jail?
20:32 < fenn> i'm talking about doing it again, but in the US
20:32 < fenn> where ostensibly there's due process etc
20:33 < fltrz> do what again? do it for real or faking it?
20:33 < fenn> both? neither? flip a coin?
20:33 < fltrz> why?
20:33 < fenn> i don't know!
20:33 < fltrz> narcissism? :) lol
20:34 < fenn> something about setting legal or social precedents
20:35 < fenn> surely we can come up with something better than "cures aids, not really lolz"
20:35 < fltrz> ehat makes you doubt it happened? if nothing happened and the MIT review were wrong of suspecting human gene editing for offspring, why would the guy go public and defend / rationalize such actions when innocent?
20:36 < fenn> the last hemophiliac surviving member of $oppressed_minority, without whose reproduction you would effectively be committing genocide!
20:37 < fenn> sorry i don't know what you're referring to with MIT
20:37 < fltrz> why would an oppressed minority all get hemophilia?
20:37 < fenn> because there's only one left and they need germline editing to ensure their baby is healthy.. it's a contrived situation
20:37 < fltrz> "The clinical project was conducted secretly until 25 November 2018 when MIT Technology Review exposed the story about the human experiment based on information from the Chinese clinical trials registry. "
20:38 < fltrz> fenn, so all the non hemophiliacs of the minority somehow died, but the hemophiliac(s) survived?
20:38 < fenn> right
20:39 < fltrz> identity is taught, you're just making sick babbies
20:40 < fenn> oh so it was antonio regalado who broke the story initially?
20:40 < fenn> i thought jiankui he announced it himself
20:40 < fltrz> if the oppressed minority systematically refused crossbreeding with wider humanity, they commit their own genocide, if they did, theres no hard boundary between the minority and the rest, so there is no "last hemophiliac member of a minority"
20:41 < fenn> ok fine, come up with a better contrived example then
20:41 < fltrz> how contrived can we get in argumentation?
20:41 < fltrz> peak contrivial coming up
20:43 < fenn> i mean, fathers with aids who want their IVF daughters to be aids-resistant is pretty contrived already
20:43 < fenn> like, huh?
20:43 < fenn> that doesn't even make sense
20:44 < fltrz> so if some douche in china is doing contrived shit, you should be allowed to do equally contrived shit?
20:44 < fltrz> its kindergarten all over again :S
20:45 < fenn> we can't let there be a contrival gap, mister president!
20:45 < fenn> i just feel the general case has been inadequately defended in the court of public opinion
20:46 < fenn> publishing some bioethics minority reports on a blog is not going to get any attention
20:47 < fltrz> why are we trying to gather attention?
20:47 < fenn> because the overton window is moving toward "BANNINATE"
20:47 < fenn> and then no genetic engineering until we fix up mars to be habitable, which is a pain
20:48 < fltrz> genetically modify humans so they can live on non-terraformed mars?
20:49 < fenn> no, forget i said anything about mars
20:49 < fenn> the point is, if enough assholes make it seem like there's consensus against genetic engineering, then lawmakers will make laws banning genetic engineering
20:49 < fltrz> steps 1) grab attention 2)... 3) come up wiith attention worthy idea
20:50 < fenn> providing indefensible media spectacles simply gives ammunition to people against genetic engineering
20:51 < fltrz> I think gene modification on humans can happen ethically by first allowing self experimentation only
20:51 < fenn> ugh
20:51 < fltrz> not on offspring, or on involuntary patients
20:51 < fenn> you're proceeding from the frame that 1) there's someone who "allows" it, and 2) that it's already banned
20:52 < fltrz> I am just entitled to my own opinion, overton much?
20:52 < fenn> and there's also the argument that if it's a germline modification, then you're affecting some hypothetical unborn humans
20:53 < fltrz> if you fuck you vote your lifequality is adequate, has always been the case
20:53 < fltrz> reproduce, not fuck
20:53 < fenn> lol what
20:53 < fenn> visit any ghetto for counterexamples
20:54 < fenn> also, not relevant?
20:54 < fenn> the people who want to ban genetic engineering are mainly against enhancements
20:54 < fenn> improving your life quality is exactly the thing they want to ban
20:54 < fltrz> I'm not against enhancements, i'm for, and in the long run for enhancing offspring too
20:55 < fenn> great, welcome aboard
20:56 < fltrz> but I don't delude myself that a couple of experiments and some statistical analysis of group genome statistics is sufficient to provably improve our genome distribution at least not at any rate faster than reality, which already is billions of experiments in parallel
20:56 < fltrz> can't turbocharge natural selection
20:58 < fenn> i don't have such faith in evolution's magical powers
20:58 < fltrz> now if you had the compute to simulate in real time more lives in silico than there are meatspace people then, yeah, there could be considerable improvement
20:58 < fenn> if we could do that, we wouldn't need the meat in the first place
20:58 < fltrz> thats my whole point
20:59 < fenn> there's this argument that "nootropics can't exist. if it were so easy for such a tiny chemical change to make an improvement, evolution would have done it already"
20:59 < fenn> it's like two economists debating whether to pick up a $20 bill on the sidewalk
20:59 < fltrz> but evolution did result in nootropics?
21:00 < fenn> and evolution resulted in genetic engineering!
21:00 < fltrz> yes, at a *higher speed*
21:00 < fltrz> the proof will always be in the pudding, and not in the recipe
21:01 < fenn> no don't pull that semantic trick. natural selection and genetic engineering are not the same process
21:01 < fltrz> it's you who pulle that trick
21:02 < fenn> as a trivial example, we can predict in simulation that certain mutations are pointless to pursue, e.g. result in truncated proteins or no transcription
21:02 < fltrz> can still become a binding region
21:03 < fenn> i mean a gene silencing mutation
21:04 < fenn> so then we can skip testing those mutations, based on a higher level understanding of the system
21:04 < fltrz> use it or lose it also happens in nature
21:04 < fenn> the process of "skip testing those mutations" doesn't happen in nature
21:05 < fenn> and this is just the basic argument. there's more to intelligent design than just skipping bad mutations
21:05 < fltrz> if skip testing had started from the first organism, life couldn't have evolved to what we have now
21:05 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hapndhlsuyhyhnkk] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
21:06 < fenn> you're just being contrary
21:06 < fltrz> you are the conservative, in arguing to freeze the number and functionality of genes,... essentially saying "biology is solved, now we just need the N-th digit"
21:07 < fenn> no, you're free to try all the copy number variations, duplicate but slightly different sequences, etc.
21:07 < fenn> but there's no point in trying every last permutation that silences the same gene, without any other reason to do so than the possibility exists
21:11 < fenn> in the first place, evolution is already doing that. so it's wasted effort. and secondly, you don't have enough computational power to test all the possibilities, so higher level prediction is necessary anyway
21:11 < fltrz> I'm certainly not claiming we have the computational power lol
21:13 < fltrz> how do you beat natural selection at its own game? suppose we attach more loss to a death than to a broken arm, as a rough example,... well selection pressure on death will typically be higher than on a broken arm
21:13 < fltrz> we can change the selection pressures, but in the end we can't beat natural selection, it has the fastest emulator available
21:13 < fltrz> physics
21:14 < fenn> the selection doesn't necessarily have to be for survival, or even survival of the gene sequence
21:15 < fenn> any metric will do, e.g. lines of computer code per nation-month or whatever
21:15 < fltrz> now I don't claim nothing can be done but it will be at a cost: lives and livelihood. Let the scientists incur this cost themselves, and they would be true factual heroes for doing so
21:16 < fenn> i'd like to live in a world where anyone can decide their own ideal to pursue
21:16 < fltrz> question is, do scientists really want to spend millions of scientist lives/livelihoods for some marginal subjective improvement?
21:16 < fltrz> fenn, it's like suicide, its illegal but nothing stops you from doing it... but when you do it to others, dont be surprised when men with sticks appear
21:17 < fenn> i'll keep in mind not to suicide others
21:19 < fenn> also, we could ban all ropes, bridges, car exhausts, alcohol, medicines, etc.
21:19 < fenn> i feel like this is about as rational as banning genetic engineering
21:20 < fenn> the general public lacks imagination
21:20 < fenn> we don't even know what we're banning
21:23 < fltrz> but we do ban (or try to) a lot of other things, like murder, rape, theft, unsafe ropes advertised as safe, unsafe bridges, ....
21:24 < fltrz> the risk in the non-banned things is environmental risk a.k.a. natural selection
21:24 < fltrz> darwin awards
21:24 < fltrz> darwin awards are thee most ethical
21:24 < fenn> but suicide is intentional, and genetic enhancement is intentional
21:25 < fenn> banning "unsafe" genetic engineering is a different argument
21:25 < fenn> i mean the kind that results in the organism itself dying
21:25 < fltrz> fenn, again, I don't propose banning genetic enhancement categorically, but at first it should be on oneself
21:26 < fenn> without a radically expanded version of "self", that's logically impossible
21:26 < fenn> you'd have to have time travel, etc
21:26 < fltrz> experimentation on others is like pushing people on non-environmental risks, like a novel unproven bridge type, or here hang on this monofilament carbon fiber
21:27 < fltrz> fenn, it doesn't require time travel? just non germline stuff to start?
21:27 < fenn> meh
21:27 < fltrz> you wish we were born in the future, well thats not limited to biology, people also want flying hoverboards
21:28 < fenn> i wish my parents had genetically engineered me to be better, repaired all my obvious flaws ahead of time, and so on
21:28 < fenn> but nobody will ever come and make that okay
21:28 < fenn> i'd even volunteer to have been an experimental subject, provided the experiment had merit
21:29 < fltrz> fenn, so it's *you* who wish for a time machine. also why depend on your parent's permission, just re-engineer yourself already, put *your* money where *your* mouth is
21:29 < fenn> gene therapy simply answers a completely different set of questions
21:29 < fenn> you can't change development with gene therapy
21:30 < fltrz> nothing fundamentally prevents a genome change to change a developed human into a velociraptor
21:30 < fenn> we could imagine there are yet unborn children who will have wished to have their genes modified before birth. but their opinion doesn't count for some reason
21:30 < fltrz> it'd be fucking complicated to pull off, but thats *your* ambition then
21:31 < fenn> {{citation needed}}
21:31 < fltrz> fenn, I could also imagine that you wish you were castrated at birth, but that would never justify anyone having done this to you
21:31 < fenn> they do circumcise babies all the time, for equivalently invalid reasons
21:32 < fltrz> again, two wrongs don't make a right
21:32 < fltrz> (for me circumcision is an enormous youth trauma btw)
21:36 < fenn> i'm going to go watch videos about toast or something
21:36 < fenn> cheers
21:37 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:38 < fltrz> consider the physics equivalent of what you whine about (I studied physics so its easy for me to generate the equivalent): perhaps theres a whole second series of stable isotopes we can't fathom according to current interpretation, but that for which we can predict how much energy it would take, and how big a hydrogen bomb we would need to make. suppose we had the materials but calculations indicate that when it would be detonated at mechanically
21:38 < fltrz> safe distances from the population about 30% of the world would get cancer. Then its like me whining that us physicists are being oppressed because you don't let us detonate the bomb, while it might offer many new insights and possibly improve our lives marginally on other fronts
21:39 < fltrz> the experiment could wait until we figure out a safer way to conduct the experiment
21:40 < fltrz> next time, first the idea, then the attention
21:41 < fenn> in this case the idea was "what if we just faked it"
21:41 < fenn> said we detonated a bomb that will give everyone cancer
21:42 < fenn> is that illegal? that was all i was getting at
21:42 < fenn> sorry it wasn't a 30 page whitepaper with a timeline and bibliography
23:20 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined ##hplusroadmap
--- Log closed Thu Oct 29 00:00:00 2020