--- Log opened Fri Oct 30 00:00:02 2020
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02:11 < archels> Blender Conference later today https://conference.blender.org/2020/
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11:33 < lsneff> FPGAs are very interesting. They could be a very useful part of a modern diy toolkit
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11:34 < L29Ah> i'm a professional embedded developer and i couldn't find an use case for a FPGA in a DIY toolkit
11:37 < lsneff> Okay, I guess they are only useful for a few thinga
11:39 < lsneff> I've got to use one for some signal processing stuff, but I suppose they're a little complex than necessary for most workloads
11:53 < L29Ah> most of signal processing stuff can be handled on MCU
11:54 < L29Ah> usually cheaper and/or more energy efficient than on a FPGA
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12:06 < juri_> L29Ah: worked with clash yet?
12:07 < lsneff> Yeah, a microcontroller isn't going to cut it for this
12:07 < lsneff> nmigen is a pretty good hdl
12:07 < lsneff> *hdl dsl
12:07 < L29Ah> juri_: never worked with FPGAs
12:15 < lsneff> The fact that you've never worked with one might be why you can't find a usecase for them.
12:15 < L29Ah> sure, but i think i'm well aware of their capabilities
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12:43 < juri_> they're useful when you need a lot of highly precisely timed I/O, FYI.
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13:18 < L29Ah> i can get 100ns precision w/ an off-the-shelf MCU or even better if i have an external clock source
13:18 < L29Ah> $5 mcu that is
13:19 < L29Ah> what's the cheapest ice40 devboard, again?
13:30 < juri_> sure. on how many pins, running how many state machines simotaneously?
13:31 < L29Ah> provide me an use case that comes with such requirements
13:32 < L29Ah> i'm well aware that you can do various signal ninja movements with a FPGA, but it doesn't make it actually useful by itself
13:49 < juri_> control of the ink nozzles of a printer.
13:50 < lsneff> Whoa, a teensy 4.0 uses an m7 that runs at 600mhz, I honestly might just be able to use that instead if I'm careful
13:52 < lsneff> When on earth did it become possible to buy an mcu dev board that runs at 600mhz for 20 bucks
13:54 < juri_> hardware is cheap. yay! :)
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14:12 < L29Ah> 23:49:35]<juri_> control of the ink nozzles of a printer.
14:12 < L29Ah> curiously but today inkjet printers cost less than fpga devboards :]
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14:14 < L29Ah> new ones, that is; those w/ empty or dried cartridges are $0-5 on the second hand market
14:14 < lsneff> You can get a fpga dev board for ~30-40 bucks
14:14 < L29Ah> (nice source of polished rods for diy conveyor stuff or even feedback-controlled actuators
14:17 < L29Ah> lsneff: same is true for inkjet printers
14:23 < juri_> L29Ah: printers are a good example of loss leader markets. show me a printer controller that's well documented and generally hackable.
14:23 < L29Ah> i don't know any
14:24 < L29Ah> same for washing machines and microwave ovens
14:24 < L29Ah> some markets are just too conservative, probably because they popped up before hackers became mainstream
14:25 < juri_> I've actually re-used a microwave microcontroller. they're somewhat documented, just highly underpowered.
14:25 < L29Ah> in .ru hot water supply is getting out for two weeks every summer
14:25 < L29Ah> but every washing machine has a water heater and pumps
14:26 < L29Ah> but no way i can utilize them to heat and pump water for me
14:31 < L29Ah> > L29Ah: printers are a good example of loss leader markets
14:31 < L29Ah> not really: Canon inkjet printers allow unlimited use of its cartridges refueled with aftermarket inks
14:33 < L29Ah> you just tell it "yea i know that you think i ran out of inks and prepared for my inkjet nozzles to burn out w/o inks to cool them, continue" when it whines with a push of a button
14:33 < L29Ah> there are even kits for continuous ink system mod for popular models on ali
14:57 < nmz787> kanzure: nah I am OK with heavy metal (music)... just saying that's a type of thing that probably would only be negotiable with a surrogate for some /extreme/ amount of money
14:58 < nmz787> lsneff: I recommend grabbing an icebreaker kit to get started, also read up on fpga4fun.com
14:58 < lsneff> Yeah, Ive got a tiny fpga bx, it's got an ice40
14:59 < nmz787> lsneff: I'm also using a teensy 4.1 now for a project, it doesn't have the best timer peripherals (lacks in slaving one timer to another, lacks in triggering DMA transfer from various timer signals)
15:01 < nmz787> the teensy4.1 has been pretty good so far for an ethernet connected low-ish speed oscilloscope sort of instrument (for nanopore monitoring stuff)
15:02 < nmz787> an FPGA would be cleaner and more efficient time-wise, but then adding ethernet in is either a huge project in both implementation and validation, or a soft-core + linux could work
15:02 < nmz787> honestly I just wish the teensy4 had the timer peripherals of the STM32 F4 series
15:03 < nmz787> they are really really nice in their flexibility
15:04 < nmz787> the teensy4 instead has like 3 or 4 different timer flavors, each with various features, and all lack some features of the STM32 F4 series (like chaining timers to start other timers, triggering DMA transactions in any direction between any DMA-connected peripherals)
15:04 < nmz787> they like, basically can only DMA new timer values, presumably for motor control or FM synthesis sort of stuff
15:05 < nmz787> but like, I wanted the timer to trigger an SPI transaction which was DMAed into RAM... but couldn't make it work
15:06 < nmz787> so I was stuck using the timer to trigger an interrupt which then did the SPI and manually copied the SPI buffer into a larger RAM buffer
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15:07 < nmz787> L29Ah: doing things like CCD clocking schemes is MUCH simpler in an FPGA than in a MCU
15:07 < nmz787> as juri_ said, timing sensitive I/O
15:08 < nmz787> HDL is nice when you need to upgrade chips and don't necessarily stick with the same series/vendor/architecture
15:08 < L29Ah> 01:07:22]<nmz787> L29Ah: doing things like CCD clocking schemes is MUCH simpler in an FPGA than in a MCU
15:08 < L29Ah> how so?
15:09 < L29Ah> 01:08:12]<nmz787> HDL is nice when you need to upgrade chips and don't necessarily stick with the same series/vendor/architecture
15:09 < L29Ah> sure it's more flexible, but for a price; also i probably can't even have all the badass peripherals of stm32f103 with a softcore on a $40 ice40
15:10 < nmz787> most people using FPGAs aren't doing it for softcores
15:11 < nmz787> ice40 chips themselves aren't $40
15:12 < nmz787> re: CCDs, there are like 3 or 4 lines that need toggled in concert,just for the analog portion, let alone something like an ADC which likely would have a parallel or serial bus to trigger conversions
15:12 < nmz787> the analog timing changes with various things like exposure time
15:12 < lsneff> Yeah, an ice40 is like 7 usd
15:13 < nmz787> and being able to not only sync the timings but also make them dynamic, makes for some pretty intricate timer peripheral register programming
15:13 < lsneff> nmz787: Have you heard of nmigen?
15:13 < nmz787> like, you could probably write the HDL for such a control scheme in the same time it takes just to find all the pages in the MCU user-guide, let alone comprehend all the registers and their interaction
15:13 < lsneff> It looks to me like a good step in the direction of composable libraries to help open up fpga programming to more people
15:13 < nmz787> lsneff: yep
15:13 < nmz787> there were a few predecessors too, migen, and another I always forget the name of
15:14 < nmz787> (written by some other folks
15:14 < nmz787> )
15:14 < nmz787> ah, myhdl.org
15:18 < L29Ah> 01:12:46]<lsneff> Yeah, an ice40 is like 7 usd
15:18 < L29Ah> and a stm32f103 is like 0.3usd
15:19 < L29Ah> but stm32f103 devboard costs $2 delivery included while ice40 starts from $70 on ali
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15:22 < lsneff> ice40 on a tinyfpga bx for $31. https://www.arrow.com/en/products/bx/tinyfpga
15:22 < L29Ah> 01:13:03]<nmz787> and being able to not only sync the timings but also make them dynamic, makes for some pretty intricate timer peripheral register programming
15:22 < L29Ah> i understand that, but somehow i never have such a problem that doesn't carry a (better than FPGA) ASIC with it
15:22 < lsneff> Look, they're for different kinds of things
15:22 < L29Ah> 01:10:50]<nmz787> most people using FPGAs aren't doing it for softcores
15:22 < L29Ah> you usually need /some/ core anyway
15:23 < lsneff> The pricing is kind of irrelevant. There are some things which are easier to use an fpga for, and most things are easier on an mcu.
15:23 < lsneff> They're cheap enough
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15:25 < nmz787> L29Ah: I've encountered it pretty often with scientific instrument enginering/R&D
15:26 < nmz787> often engineering time significantly outweighs hardware cost, for low to mid volume products
15:27 < L29Ah> 01:22:08]<lsneff> ice40 on a tinyfpga bx for $31. https://www.arrow.com/en/products/bx/tinyfpga
15:27 < L29Ah> + $44 for shipping
15:27 < nmz787> but yeah, they're a tool in the toolbox, and sometimes they're the right one
15:27 < L29Ah> had to register and fill all my personal data to get that figure :/
15:27 < lsneff> Ah, that's annoying :/
15:27 < lsneff> Anyhow, you can buy them on adafruit for about ~40
15:28 < nmz787> L29Ah: you must live in some far off place
15:28 < L29Ah> + $30 in shipping, i suppose?
15:28 < L29Ah> nmz787: .ru capital
15:28 < L29Ah>  Error 1020 Ray ID: 5ea891400a040c48 • 2020-10-30 22:28:05 UTC
15:28 < L29Ah> Access denied
15:28 < L29Ah> What happened?
15:28 < L29Ah> This website is using a security service to protect itself from online attacks.
15:28 < lsneff> Nah, like 4 bucks shipping in the states
15:28 < L29Ah> adafruit's clownflare doesn't want me in
15:29 < nmz787> free shipping for this kit, the cost is mostly IMO in the training material https://www.crowdsupply.com/1bitsquared/icebreaker-fpga
15:29 < nmz787> (which is free now, but cost the devs time to develop it)
15:29 < nmz787> (free shipping in the USA)
15:29 < L29Ah> so $85
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19:46 < fltrz> I understand FPGA seems very useless if you don't know how to make ADC's DAC's, UARTs, ... with them, you can often coalesce a bunch of chips and hopefully amortize their cost into one FPGA, people want the biggest FPGA which is more expensive, but useful for development, afterwards for each project you can estimate what the cheapest FPGA is that gets away in size for the project. Also for higher bandwidth stuff FPGA is certainly useful, also for
19:46 < fltrz> unclocked combinational logic... a lot of things can be done but you need to be aware of domain specific circuits / tricks
19:48 < fltrz> if you're not prepared to drill down and learn hybrid analog / digital circuits and just need to pipe data from one chip to another on standard chip links like I2C etc.. yes then you probably fine with MCU's if your application does not benefit from fast feedback...
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19:58 < fltrz> just a random example, suppose you have an analog circuit, which usually needs a small variable capacitance (say to tune a resonance frequency), which is typically tuned manually with a plastic screwdriver. Say you'd like the user to control the capacitance digitally from a user interface. You can use the capacitance from a reverse biased diode, by controlling the reverse bias voltage, which can be generated with a one bit DAC. so instead of a
19:58 < fltrz> variable capacitor, you use cheaper diodes and normal capacitors, and code up the HDL block for one bit ADC once, and now you can reuse that over many projects, and it can be digitally controlled
20:11 < fltrz> another example is when you need say a ridiculous amount of PWM channels, say you're building anthropomorphic robot hands/arms, and you want each digits to have the 4 degrees of freedom, and then the other 7 degrees of freedom for the wrist elbow and shoulder, for 2 arms, and you actuate with PWM servo's, then you need 2*27=54 pwm channels, while it may be possible one some MCU's if you also want to read out the 54 corresponding analog values from
20:11 < fltrz> some dataglove / exoarm from the user you'll have a hard time finding a suitable MCU, but with one bit ADC's and one bit DAC's you can pull this off on an FPGA and have loads of room to spare in gates, space you could use to calibrate the input to output angles (because of sensor imperfections, and just differences in user's arm / hand / finger dimensions...)
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23:01 < fenn> anything custom with a lot of data flowing around needs an FPGA
23:02 < fenn> like if you want to display uncompressed video signals on a non-standard LCD flat panel
23:03 < fenn> often there's no ASIC unless it's provided by the manufacturer of the panel, and they won't sell to you because you're a peasant
23:05 < fenn> heh clownflare, i like it
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23:57 < nmz787> L29Ah: yeah but $85 for a "toy" that might catalyze making money in the future, or allowing me to make some really cool product, is nothing. I just spent $70 in mostly frivolous groceries, and my take-out dinner from last night was $50
23:57 < nmz787> convenience usually isn't cheap, one way or another
23:58  * L29Ah drools
23:59 < nmz787> https://phys.org/news/2020-10-atomic-layer-deposition.html
23:59 < nmz787> "A new way to deposit thin layers of atoms as a coating onto a substrate material at near room temperatures has been invented at The University of Alabama in Huntsville (UAH), a part of the University of Alabama System."
23:59 < nmz787> https://avs.scitation.org/doi/full/10.1116/6.0000464
23:59 < nmz787> Ultrasonic atomization of titanium isopropoxide at room temperature for TiO2 atomic layer deposition
--- Log closed Sat Oct 31 00:00:02 2020