--- Log opened Fri Dec 11 00:00:43 2020
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01:38 < fenn> why do christians get a global monopoly on the objective fitness function?
01:39 < fenn> they don't even bother to learn what it is we're trying to do, before declaring it invalid
01:45 < L29Ah> cuz they won the major wars ofc
01:45 < fenn> the general public is simultaneously asked to disbelieve in the general concept of intelligence, and also be against intelligence enhancement because it would work too well
01:46 < fenn> hey L29Ah could you explain something for me
01:46 < L29Ah> no
01:47 < fenn> :(
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03:01 < nmz787> lsneff: any reference(s) on that?
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05:00 < fenn> god what a waste of a day
05:17 < Llamamoe> same bud, sam
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06:57 < nsh> editas stonks are doing well, i guess they have some postive crispr results/promises
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07:28 < lsneff> nmz787: no references, just heresay
07:30 < lsneff> re christians: my partner is mildly christian and she often feels negatively towards things like major gene therapy and life extension, but isn't able to voice why she feels that way.
07:32 < L29Ah> offer her to die right now
07:32 < lsneff> great plan, foolproof
07:32 < L29Ah> and hope she's familiar with mathematical induction
07:44 < lsneff> also something that surprised me is that a lot of christians actually believe in god — I previously thought that only a small minority actually believed.
07:49 < redlegion> lsneff: to me, there's a cavernous gap between 'I believe in a three letter word' and 'I can actually conceptualize a magic space wizard that poofed everything into existence'
07:50 < redlegion> something tells me you didn't pair up with the 'i believe in a three letter word' type
07:50 < lsneff> there's not as much gap as you think
07:52 < redlegion> you really think it's a fairly discrete thing?
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07:56 < lsneff> not a boolean, but yes. Of course, "everyone has their own relationship with god(s)" or whatever they say, but either you think it's mythology at best and propaganda at worst or you think god or gods exist and cannot be explained by science.
08:03 < fenn> but magic space wizards actually exist...
08:04 < fenn> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoSuchThingAsSpaceJesus
08:04 < fenn> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoSuchThingAsWizardJesus (also relevant)
08:05 < fenn> while this is about fiction, the trope results from a real psychological phenomenon
08:12 < fenn> i had a point, i swear
08:13 < lsneff> tvtropes is always welcome, but I'm curious where you were going with that
08:14 < fenn> there's something very different going on in religious peoples' minds when they think about god, and it has nothing to do with evaluating evidence and thinking about capabilities and consequences
08:14 < lsneff> certainly
08:14 < fenn> and many atheists generalize from "there ain't no gods" to "there ain't no magic space wizards"
08:15 < fenn> which is probably wrong
08:15 < fenn> but a religious person, presented with a magic space wizard, wouldn't accept it
08:16 < fenn> so magic space wizards always get screwed over in the end
08:16 < lsneff> poor magic space wizards, no one likes them
08:17 < fenn> so don't blame a magic space wizard for pretending to be god/devil/etc
08:17 < fenn> just ask if you can skip to tech support
08:17 < fenn> er, speak to an engineer, or something
08:18 < lsneff> .wik devil's due
08:18 < saxo> "[Disambiguation] Devil's Due, a variation of the idiom 'give the devil his due', may refer to: /  Devil's Due (film), a 2014 American supernatural horror film 'Devil's Due' (Once Upon a Time), an episode of the TV series Once Upon a Time" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_due
08:18 < lsneff> Nope, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_Due_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)
08:18 < lsneff> There's a tng episode with basically the same idea
08:18 < fenn> right
08:20 < lsneff> but back to the topic, the concept of believing in god(s) really interests me, and I suspect I'll never really understand it
08:20 < fenn> you could try out the god helmet
08:22 < fenn> hm. failure to reproduce
08:22 < fenn> oh well there's always DMT
08:30 < fenn> there's a particular sort of cognition error in schizophrenia where random things in the environment are perceived to contain deep meaning
08:30 < fenn> combined with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Man_factor as a psychological coping mechanism, it hits most of the bases
08:37 < fltrz> fenn, I don't give christians a monopoly, I am saying a self-selected subset of scientists don't have a monopoly on this objective fitness function. The negation of my statement is not "christians should have a monopoly on the objective fitness function".
08:38 < fenn> by globally banning things in the name of one group, you're effectively giving them a monopoly over choice
08:39 < fltrz> I don't ban anything in the name of one group?
08:40 < fenn> then what are you saying?
08:41 < fenn> understanding a different viewpoint doesn't mean you have to alter your own behavior
08:42 < fenn> anti-GMO people want to ban gene editing, and that affects me
08:42 < fenn> it means i can't do gene editing
08:43 < fenn> me understanding anti-GMO peoples' viewpoint won't stop them from wanting to ban gene editing
08:43 < fltrz> I said what I said: that some of them complaining about "playing God" can be perfectly interpreted as saying "some self-selected group of scientists acting as if they have a monopoly on a supposedly objective fitness function"
08:44 < fenn> so if i put on a mime outfit and act a different way, that will make it okay?
08:45 < fltrz> would it be desirable if they adapted more scientific terminology? or would it help them if they adopted legal and scientific terminology? of course, but let's not pretend like we can't hear what they say. Thats like a rapist pretending "no" is ambiguous
08:46 < fltrz> fenn, what mime outfit? what are you saying? I'm not sure what you mean, could you be more explicit with putting on mime outfit, acting differently and what it would supposedly make okay?
08:46 < fenn> if acting a certain way is important to the objection, then we could act a different way
08:46 < fenn> i will "humbly" and "piously" do gene editing
08:47 < fenn> or whatever
08:47 < fltrz> again, more precise, could you give an example of acting a certain way, or what objection?
08:47 < fenn> "acting as if they have a monopoly on a supposedly objective fitness function"
08:48 < fltrz> acting there refers to both argument and actions
08:48 < fenn> what gives them the right to say "this is good" and "this is bad"
08:48 < fenn> and i don't have the same right?
08:48 < fenn> it's not even an argument
08:48 < fltrz> fenn, everybody has that right to argue about good and bad, its up to democracy to arrive at an aggregate conclusion
08:48 < fenn> agendas are slung around, and the court of public opinion is swayed
08:49 < fenn> it's bullshit
08:49 < fltrz> fenn, you don't fix democracy by letting it rot
08:50 < fltrz> are you from US per chance?
08:50 < fenn> we never even had a chance
08:50 < fenn> https://i.redd.it/a9sledl9ow361.png
08:51 < fltrz> anyway, gotta make some rear axles now
09:11 < superkuh> Belief is not belief. Most of those people probably do not plan for god's intervention in their life. It's just an abstraction.
09:16 < apotheon> I'm pretty sure there's some selection bias or other issue with the statistics displayed on that map.
09:18 < apotheon> I've lived in several of those places, and the difference between (for instance) California and Florida is almost immediately palpable.  The increased level of goddishness in Florida over California is pretty astounding.
09:19 < apotheon> Even Italy (another place I've lived) feels much more generally christian (specifically Catholic) than California, just from the level of evident belief in god.
09:19 < apotheon> I'd be surprised if 50-69 percent of California even "believed" in god, let alone felt absolutely certain about it.
09:19 < lsneff> California surprisingly has a huge number of rural areas. Parts of California are extremely liberal, other parts like akin to Pennsylvania
09:20 < apotheon> . . . unless we're counting people who are talking about "Goddess" or "gods" or "The Horned God" too.  Then . . . *maybe*?
09:20 < fenn> yeah i don't get this map either
09:20 < apotheon> At that point, though, it would be primarily performative belief, rather than sincere belief.
09:20 < apotheon> lsneff: I've been all around California.
09:21 < lsneff> Ah, my mistake then
09:22 < apotheon> One thing I liked about California was how little people brought up the subject of God -- for the same reason in California nobody said obviously racist things (whether intentionally or not); because those with such inclinations are vastly outnumbered.
09:23 < apotheon> I mean, sure, I'm speaking anecdotally . . . but it's a pretty vast, long-term anecdote that easily overcomes a random map that makes a huge, diverse public look homogenous.
09:24 < apotheon> (Of course, there were other things wrong with California that annoyed me so much that I won't even visit the place now.)
09:27 < apotheon> In northern Colorado, it has actually been more difficult to find friends who believe in God than don't, but that might be misleading.  There's definite selection bias in my estimation, if only because it's more common in Colorado for people to make all their socializing about religion.
09:28 < apotheon> I have no issue with people believing whatever they want on a metaphysical level as long as it doesn't make them behave in ways that I detest, but if their social lives are all about religion I will almost certainly avoid hanging out with them.  As such, that skews my amongst-friends encounters rather far down the scale in Colorado.
09:30 < apotheon> People being that boringly fixated on one thing results in "personalities" that are dull as fuck.
09:31 < apotheon> I have made a grand total of one really religious person in Colorado, and he has a bunch of intriguing interests outside of religious life.
09:48 < fenn> apotheon: nice try, asmodeus! i won't be falling for your "believe my anecdote over evidence" spiel, ha ha!
09:50 < apotheon> I figured it out.
09:51 < apotheon> Pew Research Center conducts surveys by telephone.
09:52 < apotheon> In the US, the biggest demographic that habitually answers the telephone from people they don't, and also willingly sits around to answer survey questions after finding out that's who called, is "old people".
09:52 < apotheon> s/people they don't/people they don't know/
09:52 < apotheon> Even then, that sentence is kind of a mess, but it's at least not nonsensical with that edit.
09:53 < apotheon> I had a sneaking suspicion this survey's results would have something to do with the ages of the respondents.
09:53 < apotheon> . . . so yeah, there's a selection bias there.
09:54 < apotheon> I haven't lived in Europe for a while, so I'm not as sure about who answers phones and surveys there these days.
09:55 < fenn> age seems pretty easy to control for
10:04 < lsneff> Did they only call landlines?
10:04 < fenn> no
10:05 < fenn> in 2015 they called 65% cellphones
10:05 < fenn> well.. 65% of survey interviews
10:14 < fenn> most results differ by 1% or less when landlines are excluded
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11:47 < apotheon> Age is probably easy to control for it you're willing to increase your target sample set by an order of magnitude.
11:47 < apotheon> s/it you/if you/
11:47 < apotheon> (probably)
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12:31 < lsneff> Made some pretty embarrassing mistakes in the schematic, gonna have to order again probably
12:45 < lsneff> https://charted.space/afm-updates.html
13:09 < kanzure> did we investigate the nanox stuff? was that real or fake
13:18 < lsneff> is that the digital xray source?
13:49 < kanzure> yea
13:56 < lsneff> https://www.nanox.vision/our-technology
13:57 < lsneff> It's giving off slightly odd vibes for me
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16:18 < superkuh> Field emission cathodes for electron beams are pretty standard stuff.
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18:19 < lsneff> .t https://mobile.twitter.com/RokoMijicUK/status/1334563700984967168
18:19 < saxo> If you have an interest in Neuroscience or philosophy of mind, please DM me or @xxxMaddenxxx who has sadly suffered what might be termed a "qualia-otomty" for details. // I am not joking about this. The procedure is called a "sympathectomy": // https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endoscopic_thoracic_sympathectomy#Physical,_mental_and_emotional_effects (@RokoMijicUK, in reply to tw:1334562014174310401)
18:35 < Sir_Alexei> That sounds scary
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--- Log closed Sat Dec 12 00:00:44 2020