--- Log opened Sat Dec 19 00:00:50 2020 02:32 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-177-48-202.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:59 < nmz787> fenn: you didn't know science was classist? 03:00 < nmz787> what do you think the paywalls are all about? 03:02 < nmz787> also, there can be people who transgress, or rather there's some percentage of tolerance (maybe simply because of legalities) to allow "poor kids" 04:29 < fenn> universities pay for journal access, not students 04:29 < fenn> if you want to bitch about univerisities, be my guest 04:30 < fenn> the paywalls are about exploiting academic dependence on an outdated system and milking it for all it's worth 04:36 -!- Urchin[emacs] [~user@unaffiliated/urchin] has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:36 -!- Urchin[emacs] [~user@unaffiliated/urchin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:00 < fltrz> fenn, students pay for university access through the university or else through their taxes part of which go to the university. once you leave university you loose legal access to significant fragments of scientific discourse, unless you pay up, which yeah is classist 05:03 < fltrz> I think the only way to democratize education is to collectively learn that the system of democracy and the educational system should be one and the same system 05:04 < fltrz> hence why I've been mentioning informed democracy a few times before 05:32 < fenn> i think i'm the only person in this conversation who even knows what the word 'classist' means 05:42 -!- prometheus_1 [~root@88.230.147.145] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:43 -!- prometheus_1 [~root@88.230.147.145] has quit [Client Quit] 05:44 < L29Ah> fenn: is there a less outdated system? 06:16 < fenn> not really, as far as "impact" goes 06:17 < fenn> it will take a lot of individuals selflessly publishing in lower impact open journals before those journals make sense to publish in from a rational self interest point of view 06:17 < L29Ah> i mean even theoretically 06:17 < L29Ah> open journals? what's this? 06:18 < fenn> PLoS etc 06:18 < L29Ah> ah, those where you have to pay to publish 06:18 < fenn> you have to pay to publish in elsevier too 06:18 < L29Ah> huh? 06:18 < fenn> they screw you on the way in and on the way out 06:19 < L29Ah> i guess it's cheaper than plos then! 06:19 < fenn> people publish in elsevier because their journals (Nature etc) are good for your career 06:19 < L29Ah> Nature publishes garbage these days 06:20 < fenn> they've had a publishing monopoly for so long that the journals are highly respected and thus everyone wants to publish in them and thus only good papers make the cut, so it's seen as evidence of being a good academic to get published in Nature 06:20 < L29Ah> when a layman like me notices that, scientists probably are well aware of that 06:20 < fenn> yes, everybody knows 06:20 < fenn> the game theory doesn't work out in our favor though 06:21 < fenn> compared to the cost of actually doing research, paying a couple hundred dollars to make sure your paper is available for eternity is pocket change 06:22 < fenn> (now whether PLoS and friends live up to their end of the bargain remains to be seen) 06:23 < fenn> the reason we're stuck with closed journals is because it's good for an individual's career to publish in one 06:24 < fenn> there is still a lot of good stuff being published in Nature etc 06:35 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:1472:5d4b:591f:bdb7] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:58 -!- fan [~fan@36.153.85.39] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:02 -!- fan [~fan@36.153.85.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:34 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@c-73-15-72-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:35 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@c-73-15-72-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 08:14 < Malvolio> https://lexfridman.com/michael-mina/ 08:18 < Malvolio> Michael Mina: Rapid Testing, Viruses, and the Engineering Mindset | Lex Fridman Podcast #146 08:29 -!- chico [~chico@2a02:2121:2c7:26f4:b11b:ad75:f208:52c2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:13 < kanzure> hmph 09:19 -!- chico [~chico@2a02:2121:2c7:26f4:b11b:ad75:f208:52c2] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:34 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:1472:5d4b:591f:bdb7] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:52 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:cca2:7d8b:6fb4:c983] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:55 < L29Ah> hkph 10:03 < kanzure> yeah 10:12 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:cca2:7d8b:6fb4:c983] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:31 -!- show [b36c38c2@179.108.56.194] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:33 -!- show [b36c38c2@179.108.56.194] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 10:43 < L29Ah> sms 12:31 -!- filipepe [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ygsshrqmggoiexub] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:35 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:cca2:7d8b:6fb4:c983] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:39 -!- yashgaroth_ [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:cca2:7d8b:6fb4:c983] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:43 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:cca2:7d8b:6fb4:c983] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:53 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:48 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-177-48-202.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:49 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-177-48-202.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:11 < kanzure> "(Baruch 2006) wrote that 3% of surveyed fertility clinics in the US (that's 6 out of 190) have used PGD to select disabled babies. They withdrew the paper and submitted it again in 2008, with the paragraph saying that deleted; but the 3% figure is still given in one graph.' 15:11 < kanzure> "If that rate is representative of the 225 non-responding US IVF clinics, and represents 1 baby per clinic for that 3%, and represents (on average) 5 years of IVF per clinic, and selection for disability continued at the same number over the next 4 years, then we'd expect there to be 26 children born in the US more than 10 years ago who were selected via PGD to have a disability." 15:14 < jrayhawk> huh. what sort of thing was being selected for? dwarf genes? deaf genes? 15:18 < yashgaroth_> deaf was my gut guess, considering how deafs are, but deafness is often idiopathic while dwarfism has one well-known causative gene, so I'd actually be inclined to guess dwarfs 15:20 < yashgaroth_> since they'd have to determine the relevant deafness gene before selecting an embryo, not to mention if the parents each have a different recessive allele...also possibly some health concerns for a dwarf mother giving birth to a regular-sized baby (with a 1/3 chance if both parents have dwarfism), not sure how much c-sections mitigate that 15:22 < fenn> is dwarfism generally considered a disability? 15:23 < yashgaroth_> generally, sure, though perhaps not specifically 15:25 < yashgaroth_> if you asked 100 people (outside of twitter) whether it was a disability I imagine 90+% would say yes, but I'm unsure of whether there's special dwarf schools, government payouts,, discrimination laws, etc 15:30 -!- filipepe [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ygsshrqmggoiexub] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 17:21 < L29Ah> dwarfism is an advantage, as dwarfism slashes cancer and diabetes risk 17:23 < fenn> because you die young? 17:24 < L29Ah> ouch, seems so 17:24 < L29Ah> apparently there are multiple sorts of dwarfism also 17:26 < fenn> there's a bunch of comorbidities, the worst of which seems to be spine problems and paralysis if stenosis left untreated 17:26 < fenn> but like, life's a chronic illness 17:27 < L29Ah> damn how do i fix my hiatal hernia-induced GERD? 17:28 < fenn> are you sure it's not due to some weird diet you invented 17:28 < L29Ah> the cyborg approach makes you unable to use MRI :( 17:28 < L29Ah> fenn: i have no reason to blame diet 17:29 < L29Ah> first of all, i observe GERD symptoms when i run since childhood 17:29 < L29Ah> mostly fixed by not running in the first place, but this kinda sucks 17:29 < L29Ah> and vigorous cycling triggers it too sometimes 17:30 -!- Sir_Alexei [uid348072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-togjpaamjjfusqpg] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:30 < fenn> "Between 10% and 80% of people in the United States are affected." uhhh that's a big range 17:30 < fenn> is this a real thing? or is it like "chronic candida" or "lyme disease" or whatever is fashionable now 17:31 < L29Ah> well a doctor diagnosed it during gastroendoscopy 17:38 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-177-48-202.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:41 < fenn> well i don't know anything about it and i feel bad just leaving the conversation without saying anything so i'll leave this here: "People with symptoms should elevate the head of their beds and avoid lying down directly after meals." 17:43 < kanzure> good advice, also applies to excess irc time 17:43 < jrayhawk> fenn: part of the problem is that the disease is misnamed and misconceived; acid reflux is entirely physiologically normal and you can normally leave strong hydrochloric acid solutions on esophageal tissue for days on end (bernstein acid perfusion test) without issue. the problems start when permeability occurs, either due to mucosal problems or due to epithelial tight barrier junctions electing 17:43 < fenn> i'll sleep on the floor if i want to dammit! 17:44 < jrayhawk> not to barrier tightly. 17:44 < jrayhawk> the research term for this is "esophageal permeability" 17:44 < apotheon> "Between 10% and 80%" is just a fancy way to say "I dunno." 17:46 < jrayhawk> but most doctors consider all acid reflux to be pathological 17:49 < jrayhawk> some kinds of exercise are known to induce intestinal permeability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runner%27s_diarrhea 17:50 < jrayhawk> it's possible esophageal permeability gets hit by the same mechanisms in some people 17:51 < apotheon> Luckily, I don't enjoy running. 17:51 < apotheon> Ccling is good, though. 17:53 < fenn> there's running and then there's marathons 17:53 < jrayhawk> https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/physrev.00003.2008 this is a good overview of molecular machanisms of *thelial permeability, though it was not appreciated at the time just how much it generalizes 17:54 -!- yashgaroth_ [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:cca2:7d8b:6fb4:c983] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:55 < apotheon> s/Ccling/Cycling/ 17:56 < jrayhawk> https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=intestinal+permeability+exercise i am not super familiar with this literature, but you could probably come up with some interesting theories 18:07 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=c84e7014 Michael Folkson: Add Q&A >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/tokyo-2018/edgedevplusplus/python-bitcoinlib/ 18:07 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=c4c7e991 Michael Folkson: Merge pull request #189 from michaelfolkson/bryan-pythonlib >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/ 18:07 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=370bbb53 Michael Folkson: Add Carl on Chaincode Labs podcast >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/chaincode-labs/2020-11-30-carl-dong-reproducible-builds/ 18:07 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=7d1cf240 Michael Folkson: Add BlackHat talk on structured fuzzing >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/black-hat/2019/2019-08-07-jonathan-metzman-structured-fuzzing/ 18:07 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=e218def4 Michael Folkson: Merge pull request #191 from michaelfolkson/structured-fuzzing >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/ 18:07 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=e7b231d4 Michael Folkson: Merge pull request #190 from michaelfolkson/carl-chaincode >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/ 18:25 < kanzure> someone trying to figure out adipose derived stem cells https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/8d8724da-e290-4dd0-987f-36c40b144bcan%40googlegroups.com 18:59 -!- Sir_Alexei [uid348072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-togjpaamjjfusqpg] has quit [] 19:10 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:41 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:53 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:15 -!- Sir_Alexei [uid348072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vlfeaoulyxzbihbj] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:21 -!- Sir_Alexei [uid348072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vlfeaoulyxzbihbj] has quit [Quit: Updating details, brb] 20:21 -!- Sir_Alexei [uid348072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yikxgxpkyvbtbzkt] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:23 -!- Sir_Alexei [uid348072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yikxgxpkyvbtbzkt] has quit [Client Quit] 20:34 -!- justan0theruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:36 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:37 < lsneff> Does it make sense to tune career paths to take possible arrival of AGI into account? 20:38 < superkuh> No. 21:06 < ptrcmd> why not? 23:09 < fltrz> L29Ah, fenn : regarding the false dilemma of publishing in say Nature vs publishing in the more open pay to publish: why not recognize the concept of pre-publication peer review has to make way? history of science is full of insights and paradigm shifts where the conclusion is that old at-the-time-peer-reviewed publications made a wrong conclusion. There is no finality in science (although we can inch in on the truth). So why not stop expecting 23:09 < fltrz> finality from the pre-publication-peer-review process, publish for free on say Zenodo, and open up the classist peer review process for all? i.e. back to criticisms and debates in article form? 23:11 < fltrz> I am unable to inspect the exact peer review process for some chosen article in Nature, but an all-in-public model allows anyone to see the full discussion 23:52 -!- Llamamoe [~Llamagedd@178235180083.dynamic-4-waw-k-4-0-0.vectranet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] --- Log closed Sun Dec 20 00:00:51 2020