--- Log opened Sun Dec 20 00:00:51 2020
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08:58 < fenn> fltrz: because the very "class" that is keeping out the rabble, is the structure of argumentation and debate itself, without which we wouldn't even be doing science
08:58 < fenn> if you want to publish your experimental results on twitter, go ahead
08:59 < fenn> it will be buried and forgotten within a week
08:59 < fltrz> fenn, who said anything about twitter? I didn't argue for unstructured argumentation and debate, I argue for even better structure
08:59 < fenn> what do you mean by "open up the classist peer review process for all" then?
09:00 < fltrz> informed democracy : your vote among options that are negations of each other is weighted / contingent on your ability to reproduce the top x arguments of the opposite claim
09:00 < fenn> oh jesus fucking christ not this again
09:01 < fltrz> fenn, simply that today you can not view the back and forth discussion between authors and reviewers, its all prettified behind our backs
09:02 < fenn> there are some journals that publish the review process
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09:02 < fenn> it's pretty rare though
09:02 < fltrz> that should be standard, and anyone should be able to contribute to the review process
09:02 < fenn> it would never end
09:03 < fenn> the benefit of "finality" is you can stop working on the paper
09:03 < fltrz> fenn, ding! science never ends, exactly what I meant with the illusion of finality
09:03 < fenn> you've got it wrong
09:03 < fltrz> fenn, people can also stop working on the paper in my system?
09:03 < fenn> finality is not for the reader, it's for the author
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09:04 < fenn> also, in your system, we would be awash in junk science that never should have been published
09:04 < fenn> all of science would take a huge signal to noise ratio hit
09:05 < fenn> that's a massive waste, greater than the supposed gain by "opening up the system to all" (as if people can't publish themselves already)
09:05 < fltrz> fenn, why would it take a signal to noise ratio hit? harry potter fanfiction dude will not be able to reproduce top 5 arguments of why figure 7 ought to be a loglinear plot
09:05 < fltrz> its more like childhood pictures, nobody wants to be seen fumbling around occasionally
09:05 < fenn> i'm sorry to break the news, but your "informed democracy" concept will never become popular
09:06 < fltrz> fenn, I think you underestimate how attractive it will be to physical laborers
09:07 < fenn> it's extremely susceptible to manipulation
09:07 < fenn> it has nothing to do with truth
09:08 < fenn> just look at regular democracy
09:08 < fenn> all you would have to do, is create a cult of personality, then get your cult to memorize the top 5 arguments against why you shouldn't be god-emperor
09:09 < fltrz> fenn, well democracy is a measurement of desires, so don't be surprised its not about strictly objective things.
09:09 < fenn> that's exactly why it shouldn't have anything to do with science
09:09 < fenn> if there's one person who has a good argument, that overrules a million people who have a bad argument
09:09 < fltrz> fenn, who cares that a few cult members will succeed in this, the rest of the world will be exposed to the same 5 arguments and refuse to make me god emperor
09:10 < fenn> look i don't want to argue about democracy
09:10 < fenn> you've got a big hammer and no nails
09:11 < fltrz> fenn, its focused at ethics, i'd use metamath  style formal / mechanized argumentation to discuss things orthogonal to ethics
09:17 < fltrz> a (DC coupled) op-amp circulator matched to a dynamic speaker, should result in full duplex playing and recording sound with the transducer right?
09:22 < fenn> won't your "transmit" saturate your "receive"?
09:22 < fltrz> fenn, thats why I use the circulator?
09:23 < fltrz> http://techlib.com/files/RFDesign3.pdf
09:24 < fenn> so you're transmitting and receiving on different bands?
09:25 < fltrz> no, full duplex, no avoiding overlap in time or frequency
09:25 < fenn> tbh i have no idea what a circulator is
09:26 < fltrz> fenn, its a 3 (or more) port network that routes incoming signal on port A to outgoing signal on B but not to C, B to C but not to A, and C to A but not to B
09:26 < fltrz> http://techlib.com/files/RFDesign3.pdf
09:26 < fltrz> sorry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circulator
09:28 < fltrz> so you could put a transmitter on A, a transducer / antenna on B, and a receiver on C
09:29 < fenn> i didn't know this was even possible
09:29 < fltrz> fenn, whats your educational background? ( I'm bad at keeping track of people, I would make the worst handler ever)
09:30 < fenn> let's just round it off to wikipedia
09:30 < superkuh> A circulator does not mean you can transmit and listen at the same time. It means when you transmit you don't have to mechanically route things to keep from burning out your receiver that time shares the same antenna.
09:31 < fltrz> superkuh, if the isolation is proper and the antenna is properly matched how would the transmitter burn out the receiver?
09:31 < superkuh> The best circulator in the world gives you 20 dB isolation.
09:32 < superkuh> If everything is perfect.
09:32 < fltrz> superkuh, so I'm just looking at op-amp circulators for audio frequencies, and I'm seeing much better isolation scores
09:33 < fltrz> superkuh, figure five of the PDF I linked (Wenzel Circulator) shows like 60dB isolation at the lower frequency range at 12V supply voltage
09:34 < superkuh> "circulator"
09:34 < fltrz> ?
09:34 < superkuh> I don't really know much about active devices that emulate circulators.
09:34 < fltrz> i misspell somewhere?
09:35 < fltrz> you mean that emulate ferrite circulators?
09:36 < superkuh> Sure. Things that get their non-reciprocal properties from active manipulation instead of passive properties.
09:36 < fltrz> yes op-amps are active
09:37 < superkuh> I guess I ignore active "circulators" in RF because circulators are mostly used for high power situations and RF transistors at those powers can't provide the same roles.
09:37 < superkuh> But it does sound neat for audio.
09:37 < fltrz> but opamp circulators perform excellent at low frequencies, even DC..
09:38 < fltrz> superkuh, its for recording otoacoustic emissions
09:58 < fltrz> I guess I have to model in spice how to have each port have its own impedance
10:19 < fenn> .title https://i.imgur.com/mIS5eN8.gifv
10:19 < saxo> Cable-driven motion simulator for studying motion perception with applications in neurological research into balance disorders
10:19 < fenn> like my old hexegrity concept
10:20 < fenn> tensegrity stewart platform
10:47 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=0ccc885b Michael Folkson: Minor typo >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/black-hat/2019/2019-08-07-jonathan-metzman-structured-fuzzing/
10:47 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=4c922a7d Michael Folkson: Merge pull request #192 from michaelfolkson/fuzzing-typo >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/
10:47 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=dbea1744 Michael Folkson: Add JJ on Bcoin >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/sf-bitcoin-meetup/2016-09-28-christopher-jeffrey-bcoin/
10:47 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=e78992e9 Michael Folkson: Merge pull request #193 from michaelfolkson/add-jj-bcoin >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/
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10:54 < lsneff> Naming things is undoubtedly the hardest problem.
10:56 < lsneff> trying to think of a name for a new vr project
10:57 < kanzure> unreal engine
10:57 < apotheon> surreal motor
10:58 < lsneff> now that's epic
10:59 < apotheon> farlandia
10:59 < apotheon> If you really like surreal motor, I don't care if you use it.
11:00 < apotheon> I kinda doubt you'd get sued over similarities to unreal engine, too, but don't hold me to that prediction.
11:04 < lsneff> I was being a little tongue-in-cheek, but it's not a bad name
11:05 < apotheon> The missus occasionally reminds me how much she thinks I'm good at naming things.
11:05 < apotheon> I just throw shit at the wall until something sticks.
11:06 < lsneff> The project is vaguely adjacent to the idea of a metaverse, so I'm trying to think of something similar to that, at least so far.
11:08 < apotheon> paraverse
11:09 < apotheon> You could prowl around the Wikipedia article for "metaverse" and look for terms that jump out at you.
11:10 < apotheon> Hmm.  The article in question misuses the term "portmanteau".  That's annoying.
11:11 < apotheon> portaverse
11:26 < kanzure> https://support.torproject.org/tbb/how-to-verify-signature/
12:00 < fenn> please don't use any jargon relevant to the domain
12:00 < fenn> call it anteater or something completely unrelated
12:03 < fenn> kanzure: why would an attacker be able to modify binaries in flight but not signature files?
12:03 < apotheon> Surreal Motor kinda comes off like word salad.
12:04 < fenn> the attacker could provide their own "tor public key" as well
12:04 < apotheon> It's probably just harder to get the signature file to line up with the binaries.  I say "probably" because I haven't read the article yet.
12:05 < fenn> you would have to be a target and also be monitoring the keyservers to make sure all the attestations line up correctly
12:06 < fenn> any halfway competent attacker would notice that you're scanning the key servers for discrepancies and not provide you with tampered binaries/keys/signatures
12:06 < apotheon> Ooh, I like that slogan at the top.
12:06 < apotheon> "Use a mask, use Tor.  Resist the surveillance pandemic."
12:07 < apotheon> fenn: That seems like a decent deterrent for the halfway competent attacker, and a way to catch the incompetent attacker's attempts.
12:07 < fenn> it puts a lot of stress on the public key infrastructure, which has been reduced to a single server iirc
12:08 < apotheon> It's also possible that it wouldn't be a human targeted attack.
12:08 < apotheon> hm
12:08 < apotheon> Are we talking about OpenPGP keyservers?
12:08 < fenn> by "stress" i mean "the whole system fails without access to this one server"
12:08 < fenn> yes
12:08 < apotheon> Is MIT the only server left?
12:08 < fenn> last i checked
12:08 < apotheon> damn
12:08 < apotheon> I didn't realize that.
12:09 < apotheon> Maybe the Tor Project should set up a keyserver.
12:09 < fenn> Tor Project is compromised
12:09 < apotheon> How so?
12:10 < fenn> i'd rather not get into it
12:10 < fenn> a simple skim of news headlines for the past five years should suffice
12:10 < apotheon> I don't follow news headlines much.
12:10 < fenn> meh
12:11 < fenn> do people still do keysigning parties?
12:11 < apotheon> I haven't seen one in quite a while.
12:14 < kanzure> fenn: yes you need to get the tor public key from another source, and also check whether it's in your strong set
12:15 < kanzure> bitcoin core developers have been participating in keysigning parties for the past few years
12:15 < kanzure> besides pgp.mit.edu there's also sks-keyservers.net https://pool.sks-keyservers.net/pks/lookup?op=vindex&search=0x984F10CC77169FD2
12:16 < apotheon> Ah, SKS is still up.  Cool.
12:16 < apotheon> I think PGP Corp's keyserver might be gone.  I'm not sure.
12:16 < apotheon> It didn't really participate in the wider . . . "ecosystem" . . . though.
12:16 < fenn> great now we have TWO whole servers
12:17 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/JimmyMcShill/status/1340733120610447365
12:17 < saxo> ⚠️⚠️ Uhh shiit! A hacker is dumping the full @Ledger database dump for free on raidforums! Emails, phone numbers and addresses! / Get ready for a huge spam and phishing wave! / #bitcoin #cryptcurrencies #phishing #security https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eps9b3dW4AExxT8.jpg (@JimmyMcShill)
12:18 < kanzure> includes "250,000 physical addresses and phone numbers [of people who ordered ledgerhq hardware wallets]"
12:19 < apotheon> ouch
12:20 < fenn> "strong set" is a bad name
12:22 < fenn> wut it's only 55,000 keys
12:45 < Urchin[emacs]> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QBl8w12ZYs new technology gone wrong
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13:10 < fenn> love how this is being presented by a talking blue eyeball
13:11 < lsneff> ironic
13:14 < jrayhawk> last i checked a year ago, SKS was nigh-unusable due to spam and hkps://keys.openpgp.org was the only keyserver doing carefully restricted uploads
13:29 < jrayhawk> https://keys.openpgp.org/about/news more information
14:20 < jrayhawk> does that video ever go anywhere useful with, like, data or procedural information, or is it just 20 minutes of brainless harm reduction moralizing
14:25 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=8420c946 Michael Folkson: Add JJ at Breaking Bitcoin >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/breaking-bitcoin/2017/2017-09-10-christopher-jeffrey-consensus-pitfalls/
14:25 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=635c9be3 Michael Folkson: Merge pull request #194 from michaelfolkson/jj-breaking-bitcoin >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/
14:25 < jrayhawk> she criticizes a dippy instagram model for pretending benefit/harm tradeoffs don't exist, and then proceeds to... pretend that benefit/harm tradeoffs don't exist
14:46 < apotheon> jrayhawk: It's just brainless harm reduction moralizing.  I watched the whole thing.
14:47 < jrayhawk> thanks for taking that bullet for us
14:47 < apotheon> jrayhawk: It also argues from authority a bit.
14:47 < apotheon> I mean . . . I don't plan to try it, and wouldn't even if I didn't already have blue eyes, but that doesn't mean it's a great video.
14:47 < apotheon> The companies called out in the video *do* seem to be very sketchy.
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15:17 < fenn> i'm unclear on what the benefit is supposed to be
15:17 < fenn> $8k and a flight to tunisia buys a lot of colored contacts
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15:37 < apotheon> fenn: People are dumb about stuff like that.
15:38 < apotheon> fenn: Hell, people spend over a grand on a smartphone instead of spending three hundred and using the rest for delicious and healthy food or for retirement investments.
15:38 < fenn> we could make a "cosmetic" gene therapy that gives you porphyria and market it as real life vampirism
15:39 < apotheon> Add in the implantation of fangs and you've got a product offering.
15:39 < fenn> that's the delivery procedure
15:40 < fenn> fangs are in a followup visit with one of our affiliated dentartists
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15:40 < fenn> there could be a whole line of services like breaking your legs to make you walk like a pimp
15:41 < apotheon> yikes
15:41 < apotheon> On the other hand, there's probably a factor in how people make these decisions similar to how someone might prefer to actually have fur rather than just owning a fursuit.
15:43 < fenn> i think it goes something like "woah, duuuude that's AWsumz. daddy can i please go to tunisia to get plastic put in my eyeball"
15:43 < jrayhawk> the body modification instinct seems to be something akin to a sexual orientation in terms of the level of immutable compulsion involved
15:43 < apotheon> I suspect that anyone who wants blue eyes so badly that person would engage significant risk of legal blindness rather than wear contacts is also someone who almost certainly has serious psychological issues with self-image, self-worth, and demographic . . . dysphoria, I guess.
15:44 < apotheon> "If I was blonde and blue-eyed people would love me."
15:44 < apotheon> That seems like a somewhat-unconscious likely scenario.
15:44 < fenn> dunno. the images on their website are very striking on their own
15:45 < apotheon> I haven't performed extensive study of this subject.  My sample set is probably about eight times a 52% likelihood.
15:45 < apotheon> (at a guess; I don't have logs of my experience of people who wanted to physically modify themselves in drastic ways)
15:46 < jrayhawk> the body modification instinct probably brought us most of surgical science over the course of the neolithic, so i am not all that eager to demonize it
15:46 < apotheon> Yeah, I don't want to demonize it.  I do, however, deplore the behavior of people who downplay the dangers to dupe people into giving them money.
15:47 < fenn> it's really a problem with the medical system and over-regulation
15:47 < fenn> it's just way too difficult to do something the right way
15:47 < apotheon> My attitude is more "Make sure the person really understands the risk, is competent to make an informed decision, and has adequate information to make that choice."
15:47 < apotheon> Yeah, medical regulation fucks up a lot of stuff.
15:48 < apotheon> A lot of it may come from good intentions, at least initially, but is usually naive at first and co-opted later.
15:49 < apotheon> Because of the way the regulations work, people are overly confident in the safety of things just because they got approved, too.
15:49 < fenn> yeah people think i'm a nutter because i complain about tylenol
15:50 < jrayhawk> i view it more as "people will hack themselves up for aesthetics regardless, let's try to see what we can learn from it"
15:50 < fenn> "old people are gonna die regardless, let's see what we can learn from it"
15:51 < jrayhawk> i have the same view on e.g. doping in competitive sport
15:51 < fenn> "prisoners are gonna get executed regardless..." etc
15:51 < apotheon> I don't think encouraging everyone who says "I wish my eyes were blue" to go to BrightOcular, with assurances that there's no way anything will go wrong, just to get more experimental data, is ethical.
15:52 < fenn> it's a slippery slope and so far the professional ethicists have stuck to the precautionary principle
15:52 < apotheon> If people understand the risks and make informed decisions based on their own risk/reward preferences, I don't see why we should penalize people for blood doping in endurance sports, either.
15:52 < fenn> it's easy to point out the potential harms of research, but not so easy to point out the (unknown) benefits
15:52 < apotheon> The key is that they shouldn't be lured into it by promises of perfect safety when something obviously presents significant risk.
15:53 < jrayhawk> but yes, it is important to acknowledge that tradeoffs exist
15:53 < fenn> apotheon: because sports are highly competitive and any intervention at all is going to change the outcome of a close competition, so everybody will be forced to take part
15:53 < apotheon> Note that I don't think any of this should be illegal *except* the stuff that amounts to one person maliciously causing harm to another when that's not what the other person wanted.
15:54 < apotheon> (roughly speaking)
15:54 < fenn> what i take issue with is WADA swinging their dick around so far it breaks things way outside of the realm of sports
15:54 < apotheon> fenn: Have a league for blood-doping and another that doesn't have blood-doping, then.  Whatever.
15:54 < fenn> oh i'd love an "anything goes" sports league
15:55 < fenn> hell, it would be a major improvement to have an "anything goes" racing league
15:55 < fenn> like, car racing
15:56 < apotheon> or foot racing, like people intentionally getting their lower legs amputated so they can use performance-enhancing prosthetics
15:56 < fenn> F1 does a lot to help out automotive engineering research
15:56 < fenn> just by existing
15:56 < fenn> apotheon does that actually happen?
15:56 < apotheon> yep
15:56 < apotheon> err, "yep" to the F1 thing
15:56 < apotheon> I don't know whether it actually happens.
15:57 < apotheon> . . . but I do know that there are performance-enhancing prosthetics for people with leg amputations.
15:57 < apotheon> They seem to argue that it's like buying a better pair of shoes, but there's obviously a substantive factor involved that goes well beyond shoes.
15:58 < apotheon> I suspect that if blood doping became allowed in a parallel version of the Tour de France the general public would be more interested in the blood doping version, and the version without would wither away.
15:58 < fenn> i'd like to see how well the prosthetics perform on rocky loose terrain
15:58 < apotheon> Ah, well . . . they'd have to develop different prosthetics for that.
15:59 < apotheon> I've only really seen stuff about running prosthetics in stuff like the hundred meter dash.
15:59 < fenn> it's sort of hard to believe a mostly rigid plate will outperform something evolved, in all environments
15:59 < fenn> it's not that hard to evolve an efficient spring
15:59 < fenn> horses have em
16:00 < apotheon> Sprinting events seem to be the center of potential controversy, but people are kinda afraid to make too much noise about it because it's not "cool" to say negative things about the sport practices of double amputees.
16:00 < apotheon> Rigid plate?
16:00 < fenn> the carbon fiber "blade" style prosthetics
16:01 < fenn> it doesn't articulate, it's just a bent plate that acts like a leaf spring
16:01 < apotheon> springs: http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17vga9ov4pisujpg/original.jpg
16:01 < apotheon> Yeah, it's a spring.  It doesn't have to be articulated to grant some performance benefit.
16:01 < fenn> what i'm saying is i doubt it's a strict benefit in all environments
16:02 < apotheon> Oh, sure.
16:02 < fenn> swimming for example
16:02 < apotheon> They change prostheses for different purposes.  One doesn't wear these to the grocery store.
16:02 < fenn> why not
16:02 < fenn> think of how fast you could shop!
16:02 < apotheon> It's not as well-suited to that environment.  Wear a different prosthetic.
16:03 < apotheon> They seem well-suited to going in a straight line at high speed, and less so for a lot of stepping around things, turning in place, standing still, and so on.
16:04 < fenn> it's just such a minimal increase in performance that i consider it "cosmetic" because the main function is to boost the wearer's ego
16:04 < apotheon> I could imagine just side-stepping requiring more work and care than with a more general-purpose prosthesis.
16:05 < fenn> i never understood why people want to compete, so yeah
16:05 < fenn> the whole thought of cutting your feet off to shave a second off your hundred meter dash just seems silly
16:06 < apotheon> sure
16:06 < fenn> it's like, lacking imagination
16:06 < apotheon> People do stuff that could cause cardiac arrest in the middle of a bicycle race just to do better in the race, though.
16:07 < apotheon> Shit, people leave critically sensitive data on their two thousand dollar laptops lying around on the table in a "fast casual dining" establishment while they go to the toilets, along with easily-drugged beverages sitting beside the laptops, without a second thought.
16:08 < apotheon> . . . then they get all worked up about the possibility of terrorism to the point that they're willing to have their lives ruined in exchange for "safety" provided by the TSA.
16:09 < apotheon> The likelihood of having your laptop stolen, thus losing your job and costing the company millions of dollars, ending up homeless, and dying in a gutter, are greater than the likelihood of being killed by religious extremists for political ends.
16:10 < fenn> let's be honest, nobody gets fired for leaking critical data
16:10 < fenn> but you might say the wrong thing on twitter, and then the company would have to take action
16:10 < apotheon> People are willing to get objects implanted in their eyes (risking blindness) to fake an eye color rather than use contacts or just be happy with brown eyes.
16:11 < apotheon> People *do* get fired for leaking critical data, when it's necessary to "take steps" to assuage the ire of clients.
16:11 < fenn> oh i thought you meant something like the equifax breach
16:12 < apotheon> Oh, well, people lost their jobs there, too.  Some of them probably even deserved it.
16:12 < apotheon> Some who deserved it got out of it better off than they went in, though.
16:14 < fenn> "a Content-Type header containing a #cmd= string"
16:16 < fenn> i wonder what computer security would look like if we didn't have government agencies actively sabotaging the entire field
16:16 < fenn> i feel like i live in medieval europe where everyone just shits into and drinks from the same well
16:17 < apotheon> yep
16:17 < apotheon> seems legit
16:53 < kanzure> https://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Battlement:%20A%20quorum%20based%20design%20for%20lightning%20network%20key%20management%20-%202020.pdf
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--- Log closed Mon Dec 21 00:00:53 2020