--- Log opened Wed Dec 30 00:00:01 2020 00:03 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:13 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-177-48-202.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:27 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:36 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:43 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:44 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:44 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:55 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:56 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:01 < L29Ah> .t https://www.quantamagazine.org/why-sleep-deprivation-kills-20200604/ 05:01 < saxo> Quanta Magazine 05:01 < L29Ah> ;[ 05:02 < L29Ah> > evidence that when flies die of sleeplessness, lethal changes occur not in the brain but in the gut 05:13 < Llamamoe> Let's be honest, there's only so much you can transfer from knowledge on insects to knowledge about mammals 05:13 < Llamamoe> There's a lot that's going on in sleep deprivation 05:13 < darsie> Sleep deprivation is not lethal in humans. 05:13 < Llamamoe> Oh yes it is 05:14 < darsie> Oh no, it is not. 05:16 < Llamamoe> Like, it typically won't kill you directly, especially since you start microsleeping after some point, but it's an enormous increase in all-cause mortality 05:20 < Llamamoe> .t https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5627640/ 05:20 < saxo> Why Sleep Matters—The Economic Costs of Insufficient Sleep 05:22 < L29Ah> > Investigating the link between sleep duration and mortality we find that at any given point in time, an individual that sleeps on average less than six hours per night has a 13 per cent higher mortality risk than an individual sleeping between seven and nine hours, which is considered as the healthy amount of sleep. 05:22 < Llamamoe> Yeah, and this is for only mild sleep restriction 05:22 < L29Ah> i wouldn't call that an "enormous increase" 05:22 < L29Ah> but yes 05:22 < Llamamoe> That's an annual increase 05:22 < Llamamoe> It adds up over the years 05:22 < L29Ah> apparently nazis haven't thought of making the experiments on sleep 05:22 < Llamamoe> Lemme search around on total sleep deprivation 05:24 < Llamamoe> Or actually nah, I don't feel like it 05:24 < Llamamoe> But yeah it does seem like you don't die from sleep deprivation so easily 05:25 < Llamamoe> https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article-pdf/12/1/13/13659076/120103.pdf 05:25 < Llamamoe> Sleep Deprivation in the Rat: III. Total Sleep Deprivation 05:25 < Llamamoe> Seems it takes rats 11-32 days to die from total sleep deprivation 05:26 < Llamamoe> I don't think that's been tried on humans 05:26 < Llamamoe> Like you can not sustain wakefulness after some point, you'd need either neurochemical or electrical stimulation to actually keep someone alive long enough for them to die 05:28 < Llamamoe> Though of course you start getting extreme impairments and damage much earlier 05:30 < Llamamoe> I imagine it would be shorter in humans than in rats, because our brains are a way greater burden on metabolism than in rat. 05:30 < L29Ah> i've kept myself awake for five days on amphetamine, but stopped when i started observing hallucinations i couldn't easily dismiss; after sleeping (~30h it was i think) and a week of zombie-like condition i felt normal, no idea if i got any longer-lasting damage 05:31 < Llamamoe> Doesn't help that the definition of damage is kinda moot 05:31 < Llamamoe> Even if you got any damage, the brain is robust enough to compensate if it's not extreme 05:31 < Llamamoe> Also why did you do that, L29Ah? X__X 05:31 < juri_> L29Ah: seven days here, similar report. stay away from drugs, kids. 05:31 < Llamamoe> Whyyy 05:31 < L29Ah> Llamamoe: idk, felt like working 05:32 < Llamamoe> Healthy sleep basically gives you more benefit for cognition than amphetamine does 05:32 < juri_> yep. too much to do. 05:32 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:32 < L29Ah> but yeah i must say it's net negative if you aren't on a critical deadline 05:33 < Llamamoe> And like, amphetamine doesn't even keep you performing under severe sleep deprivation conditions, it basically biases processing of reward in a way that promotes cognitive effort and makes you feel like you perform better. At some point all it's doing is keeping you awake. 05:33 < L29Ah> today i sometimes consider amphetamine as a sleep schedule adjusting drug (as it seem to have less side effects than caffeine), but it's much harder to obtain 05:34 < L29Ah> Llamamoe: nah i coded C stuff at day five just fine 05:34 < L29Ah> it's not a very creative task tho 05:34 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:34 < juri_> at day 7, i was also grinding out C. not very good C, tho. 05:35 < Llamamoe> L29Ah: Did I ever give you my SDB risk assessment questionnaire in the end? 05:35 < L29Ah> SDB is a symbolic debugger for C programs. 05:35 < Llamamoe> Oh yeah, was supposed to update it 05:36 < Llamamoe> In this case SDB is Sleep Disordered Breathing, a spectrum that encompasses sleep apnea, upper airway restriction syndrome, and some more obscure issues 05:39 < Llamamoe> It's basically extremely underdiagnosed, and is a cause of issues such as: ADHD, treatment resistant depression, CPTSD and a huge risk factor for PTSD, fibromyalgia, allergies, autonomic dysregulation(cold hands/feet, postural intolerance), and more 05:41 < Llamamoe> I would be very unsurprised if all ADHD wasn't just SDB, some cases just under diagnostic criteria 05:41 < Llamamoe> ADHD is basically a strict subset of SDB symptoms with the same comorbidities 05:41 < juri_> autonomic dysregulation and PTSD here. tho, if i discuss my past in any detail, you'll agree that the PTSD is 'natural'. 05:42 < Llamamoe> juri_: All trauma is "natural", but sleep dysregulation is a HUGE predictor for susceptibility to trauma, and recovery from it 05:42 < Llamamoe> Bad sleep quality is basically as big of a risk factor as actual traumatic experiences, for developing PTSD 05:44 < Llamamoe> juri_: You go on the list to get the questionnaire after I update it 05:44 < Llamamoe> L29Ah: You too 05:44 < juri_> Llamamoe: rape victim, literal slave who lived under armed guard, with credible threats of being raped to death if i did not perform, for ~3 years. I doubt sleeping better would have helped. :) 05:45 < juri_> I'm up for a questionaire, when you're done updating. 05:46 < Llamamoe> juri_: That sounds like it would about do it in any case possible, I am sorry :-( 05:46 < Llamamoe> I was more thinking about all the studies correlating sleep quality with war veterans developing trauma, and general associations 05:47 < Llamamoe> That said, autonomic dysregulation is a pretty big clue something might be going on wrt sleep 05:48 < juri_> Llamamoe: not your fault. took me a LONG time to be able to talk about it calmly. i do have some sleep breathing problems tho (have to use snore-strips, and switch sides as one nostril gets 'resistant'). unfortunately, i have a hip that needs replaced, so switching sides is not so easy nowadays. 05:49 < Llamamoe> FWIW, I'm in a Sleep Disordered Breathing community, and it's extremely common for people to start being able to work through trauma very rapidly with treatment 05:49 < juri_> great. where were you ten years ago. :P 05:49 < Llamamoe> In my own case, I don't so much have trauma, as a lot of pretty extreme mental health dysregulation 05:49 < Llamamoe> I do have CPTSD though, I guess 05:50 < L29Ah> Llamamoe: :* 05:50 < Llamamoe> Seems almost everyone with UARS does, and most apnea people 05:50 < Llamamoe> L29Ah: M-meow?! 05:51 < Llamamoe> juri_: Speaking of snore-strips, I find that DIY stainless steel wire nostril stents work really well for my airway throughput, though it's rarely just the nose and indeed in my case, I have serious throat area flow limitations (that a PAP mostly manages) 05:52 < L29Ah> i just open my mouth when nose isn't enough for some reason 05:52 < L29Ah> waking up with dry mouth sucks tho 05:53 < Llamamoe> L29Ah: That basically puts you on a "almost definitely has SDB" list, too 05:55 < Llamamoe> You don't mouth breathe unless your nose airflow is insufficient, and I'm pretty sure mouth breathing is a definite indicator of SDB, especially since you're unlikely to have just one site of flow limitation - if you have dentofacial deformity (about ~40% of people do) severe enough to have nasal flow limitations, you probably have further airway issues 05:55 < Llamamoe> Jesus christ 05:56 < Llamamoe> When I went on the crusade of trying to help people learn about and diagnose this issue, I expected 10-20% positive rates, but it's at this point close to 90% 06:03 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:03 < juri_> perhaps your criteria is a bit too wide, then. :) 06:23 < Llamamoe> juri_: Nope, wish that was just it 06:50 < fltrz> Llamamoe, did you order the PCL? 06:50 < Llamamoe> Yah it arrived today, picked it up already 06:53 < fltrz> Llamamoe, be careful with it, and first try some simple things on non-body parts: take some pellets, melt them (some types of container the plastic really sticks to, others it doesnt and are suitable for melting it in boiling water.have use a metal pin / nail / or fork to take it out of the hot water. (I use a hobby knife kit which has among the blades a simple sharp pin) 06:53 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:6824:b6aa:245b:b7b] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:53 < Llamamoe> fltrz: Not sure if it's viable for a layman to make a good mandibular advancement device, plus gonna try consulting more orthodontist for info since most just go "I wouldn't want you to hurt yourself with a poorly calibrated device", and I don't feel like resorting to looking the knowledge up myself, so for now not sure what I'll do with it 06:53 < Llamamoe> Careful in what sense? 06:54 < fltrz> first just observe how it becomes transparent, then take it out, squeeze the molten pellets together, some hot water will come out, so be ready to alternate hands a bit, then it becomes bearable to hold, roll it in a ball. Hold under cold water for fast solidifying 06:54 < Llamamoe> Ah, yeah. I was gonna do some testing of how it handles first anyway. 06:54 < Llamamoe> Thanks for the tips :) 06:55 < kanzure> i spent a few minutes digging this up for someone, so i might as well post the reference 06:55 < kanzure> regarding "On the instability of bitcoin without the block reward" or "bitcoin is unstable without the block reward", 06:55 < fltrz> , next exercise: reheat the PCL ball in boiling water (if not hot enough replace the hot water first, then take a coin on a table, or perhaps glass plate (I have a kitchen cutting plate made of glass) 06:56 < kanzure> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/58x26m/bitcoin_is_unstable_without_the_block_reward/d93y1xh/ 06:56 < kanzure> https://medium.com/@bergealex4/bitcoin-is-unstable-without-the-block-size-size-limit-70db07070a54#.s8j8j6nla 06:56 < fltrz> then press the ball on the coin and either let cool, or hold both under cold water, then remove the coin, you will see a faithfull negative of the coin surface 06:56 < Llamamoe> :0 06:57 < Llamamoe> But yeah, I'm gonna hopefully enjoy playing with it :-) 06:58 < fltrz> Llamamoe, as a further exercise, heat some extra PCL, squeeze out the water, let it cool enough so that its not too hot but still plastic, first roll in a ball again then press it on the PCL negative of the coin, and youll see a faithful positive 06:58 < fltrz> Llamamoe, so you can use PCL as a mold for molten PCL 06:58 < Llamamoe> fltrz: Wouldn't they meld together? O.o 06:59 < fltrz> Llamamoe, they dont if the mold is cool, and the molten one doesn't have enough energy to melt the mold. dont ask me how, it just works 06:59 < fltrz> Llamamoe, also you can then appreciate the warnings not to make say a ring by molding around a finger, as theres no way to melt it without scalding yourself! 07:00 < fltrz> so when the time comes to custom mold to body parts, think deep about potential convexity vs concavity, and also remember you can mold "in parts" and reconsitute them to make a positive 07:01 < Llamamoe> Yeah 07:01 < Llamamoe> Well, I guess a possible exception is bodyparts with variable size 07:01 < Llamamoe> O__O 07:02 < fltrz> i.e. if you *had* to make a ring, just make a lower half against the finger, cool in water or wait, then when cool, use a second piece of molten PCL and make the top half *while the cold mold is in proper position* 07:02 < fltrz> Llamamoe, if you're hinting at phallic molds.. could still be dangerous by getting erection etc 07:03 < Llamamoe> fltrz: How would making a finger mold in two pieces help here, wouldn't the end result still be difficult to remove? 07:03 < fltrz> Llamamoe, you'll have a lot of fun 07:04 < fltrz> Llamamoe, the top half and bottom half shouldn't weld together, just like the PCL mold of a coin, but try it out a few times to verify on say coin, and try to intentionally mold the second piece while the first is still plastic etc to get an idea of dangerous timing 07:05 < Llamamoe> ...oh right, sorry 07:05 < fltrz> Llamamoe, when done right its just 2 halves of a ring, so even though you couldn't slide it off, it will simply fall apart 07:06 < fltrz> Llamamoe, I don't really see what you are trying to do, unless you could ELI5 it 07:07 < Llamamoe> fltrz: Basically something between an orthodontics retainer and a mandibular advancement device, that moves the lower jaw forward, but like I said there's some risks associated with a poorly calibrated one, so I'm holding off on it for now 07:08 < fltrz> Llamamoe, I don't know what those are, suppose safety was a non issue (imagine the plastic dissolves in water), what would be the most straightforward way of making your mold? 07:08 < fltrz> you bite on it? 07:09 < Llamamoe> fltrz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4autRFDA_fo Like this, but it'd need to have wire embedded in it, with hooks on which special extra strength&durability rubberbands are mounted 07:09 < Llamamoe> Basically I'd do what the guy in the video does, which is warm it in hot water, roll into a sheet, cut out an appropriately sized part, and then manually mold it against teeth using fingers, reheating it several times 07:10 < Llamamoe> Afterwards, I'd probably barely remelt it, so that more PCL can be attached to it, with some steel wire inbetween 07:11 < Llamamoe> It sounds pretty difficult to do right... 07:11 < fltrz> Llamamoe, watching now 07:15 < Llamamoe> Making an impression of teeth sounds reasonably easy, the rest of the process way less so 07:19 < fltrz> Llamamoe, the guy definitely had balls 07:21 < fltrz> especially the thicker ones, the thinner ones can flex, but the thicker ones I would have feared to lock on the often slimmer base of teeth. It might also be he is just taking them out on time without allowing to solidify on the teeth, so the retainers might be deformed such that its less of a perfect fit but still insertable and removable 07:22 < fltrz> Llamamoe, what are retainers normallu used for? 07:22 < Llamamoe> fltrz: Retaining progress gained with braces. I had one, but threw it away without realizing that it was helping my case of SDB by preventing throat obstruction 07:23 < Llamamoe> And then kept panicking for 3 years about why my cognition is getting so much worse so quickly 07:23 < Llamamoe> Ugh 07:23 < Llamamoe> Before finally realizing that it's been SDB all along, and getting a PAP thanks to generosity of a friend who has another sleep disorder (narcolepsy) and similar issues (avoidance, adhd, memory issues, depression) 07:23 < fltrz> Llamamoe, people that wore braces for a period of time, then wear retainers at night instead? 07:24 < Llamamoe> Typically yeah 07:24 < Llamamoe> With time frequency of wear can go down, but yeah the jaw moves back without them 07:25 < fltrz> Llamamoe, I was most surprised to learn people were using it to make replacement teeth, would sure love to read or watch more about that 07:25 -!- filipepe_ [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tzkfkodwjrcjzkkk] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:26 < fltrz> my grandfather made his own teeth, back when sophisticated mail at home kits of all kinds were popular 07:26 < fltrz> like a real kit to make ceramic teeth or whatever 07:29 < fltrz> I guess the upshot of overpriced medicine is that citizens get creative! 07:30 < fltrz> and then perhaps translate that skill into other domains 07:37 < fltrz> Llamamoe, its quite elaborate detour, but I would play safe and aim for a more perfect fit: roll a first sausage of PCL, and applu from the inside (tongue side) out but dont go over teath, keep until solid, then remove, roll a second sausage and apply from the outside against teeth and the still present first sausage, then let solidify completely in mouth, then remove each half. then recombine outside the mouth and use the combination to mold a 07:37 < fltrz> positive. then use the positive to make the final retainer 07:39 < fltrz> it might be that the retainer in my method ends up being very hard to insert and remove as the fit is too perfect, in that case either use a thinner retainer so it flexes more, or do as the original video and the process of removing the mold deforms it before solidifying such that its easy to place and remove 07:39 < Llamamoe> fltrz: I only have 250g, and yeah I think your approach might be hard to insert 07:40 < fltrz> 250g is quite a lot I think ;) 07:41 < Llamamoe> But you said sausage, so I think of kielbasa 07:41 < fltrz> Llamamoe, also after being content with say the lower retainer, you can melt the 2 halves that form the mold and reuse those to form the mold for the upper teeth 07:43 < fltrz> Llamamoe, also, I think instead of first making a sheet and then cutting a proper shape, I'd first roll a sausage, optionally curve it, and then flatten the sausage 07:43 < Llamamoe> fltrz: Have you worked with molds and such previously? 07:43 < fltrz> Llamamoe, ive played with the PCL extensively 07:43 < Llamamoe> Ah 07:44 < fltrz> the first time one learns about PCL it looks like this magical substance you can freeform with anything, but then when you want controlled shapes you realize you need an array of tricks to combine shapes etc 07:45 < fltrz> Llamamoe, also lots of failures, like trying to squeeze it through a hypodermic needle 07:46 < fltrz> its way too viscous 07:46 < fltrz> but its easy to make thread, just pull it apart and keep pulling, you can get amazing long plastic thread 07:46 < Llamamoe> Anyway, I'll get to it another day 07:46 < Llamamoe> Really struggling with stress today 07:47 < fltrz> yeah I should go shopping 07:47 < fltrz> must hoard presents 07:54 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-txnimirlavqaqrgd] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:58 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:59 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:59 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:38 < lsneff> Huh, a processor design startup offered to sponsor my work on a waveform viewer 08:47 < lsneff> I'm trying to figure out if I have time, don't want to have to pause the afm 08:51 < fltrz> what kind of waveform viewer? analog or digital? 08:52 < lsneff> digital, at least in mvp 08:52 < lsneff> The existing solutions are quite lacking 08:52 -!- srk [~sorki@gateway/tor-sasl/sorki] has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in] 08:52 < fltrz> in what sense are they lacking? 08:52 -!- srk [~sorki@gateway/tor-sasl/sorki] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:53 < fltrz> they want to be able to zoom in and out quickly different timescales? 08:53 < lsneff> For example, gtkwave is basically impossible to extend, and it's stuck in a local optimum with respect to features and performance 08:54 < lsneff> They're pretty good at that actually 08:54 < fltrz> lsneff, whats mvp? 08:54 < lsneff> Minimum viable product 08:55 < fltrz> whats the input? 08:55 < fltrz> n-channel waveforms? 08:56 < fltrz> they want protocol decoding too? 08:57 < fltrz> lsneff, does it feel like a ruse to dissuade you from continuing AFM? 08:59 < lsneff> It'll digest things like VCDs and a format me and whitequark are speccing for cxxsim 09:00 < lsneff> fltrz: no, not a ruse, just anothing thing to do 09:04 -!- chico [~chico@2a02:2121:28d:63ee:29f8:a82:1b18:bc69] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:07 -!- andozw62 [ae1f1aca@174.31.26.202] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:41 -!- andozw62 [ae1f1aca@174.31.26.202] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:43 -!- chico [~chico@2a02:2121:28d:63ee:29f8:a82:1b18:bc69] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:45 -!- chico [~chico@2a02:2121:28d:63ee:29f8:a82:1b18:bc69] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:55 -!- chico [~chico@2a02:2121:28d:63ee:29f8:a82:1b18:bc69] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:04 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:13 < Llamamoe> fltrz: I have done very little, but indeed, this is fun :) 11:17 < fltrz> Llamamoe, :) it really is! 11:18 < Llamamoe> Working with it using hot water really is not a convenient way to go about it though 11:18 < Llamamoe> I'd really much rather have it dry and more conveniently remeltable 11:37 < fltrz> Llamamoe, what bothers you about the water? with an electric kettle, a container that doesnt stick (I use a microwave / freezer compatible PP food container), and a long metal pointy manipulator, I dont consider it much of a hassle 11:37 < fltrz> Llamamoe, you could hypothetically use a heat gun, but heat capacity of water is much better, and allows for controlled heating 11:38 < Llamamoe> fltrz: Like when I made the negative of a coin, I kept getting water trapped between the coin and the PCL, and the water goes cold and has to be replaced regularly 11:38 < Llamamoe> I could probably do way better with preventing it from going cold, though, fwiw 11:39 < fltrz> Llamamoe, when i take it out of the water I knead it a bit to make sure theres little water, you might be able to blow it off with compressed air, or perhaps wipe it off the surface with nonstick material, I didnt get water trapped when making coin impressions 11:40 < fltrz> Llamamoe, how do you heat the water? 11:40 < Llamamoe> fltrz: Just in a kettle, then pour into a (this time used a ceramic mug, but it did stick a tiny bit, so next time something else maybe) 11:40 < fltrz> the video you linked reused the hot water without replacing it, thats not how I work, as it can take a long time to remelt at lower temp difference between plastic and water 11:41 < fltrz> Llamamoe, you have a microwave/freezer compatible food box? check if its PP on the bottom 11:41 < fltrz> electric kettle or on a stove? 11:42 < fltrz> Llamamoe, when I decide to remelt, I pour out the old water and take fresh hot water 11:42 < Llamamoe> :^) None of those 11:42 < fltrz> this also makes it a lot easier mentally as you get a relatively consistent experience 11:43 < Llamamoe> But yeah, I'd want to optimize this much more 11:43 < Llamamoe> Working on metal makes it cool very fast, so I'd probably want a glass surface 11:43 < fltrz> Llamamoe, I really like electric kettle for this, because you don't have to think, like microwave settings, or stove temp etc.. 11:43 < Llamamoe> Keeping water at a constant temperature with some sorta device would probably be better than this, too 11:43 < Llamamoe> Yeah 11:44 < fltrz> this allows you to focus more on the task then having background multitasking mental timers 11:45 < fltrz> Llamamoe, when you discover workflow improvements or neat tricks, do share ;) 11:46 < fltrz> Llamamoe, I guess you could put the coin in the water too but distanced from the plastic, take coin out first and quickly dry it, then take plastic, knead water out, dry some way, then make impression, didn't try that yet though 11:47 < Llamamoe> But yeah, I'm gonna be working with it slowly 11:47 < Llamamoe> I'm still, regrettably, in a state of nearly 24/7 stress 11:48 < Llamamoe> PAP has improved my energy levels a lot, but like... I expected way more given how fucked up my sleep was 11:48 < Llamamoe> I guess this is to be expected given how incredibly long I struggled with extreme mental health issues. They're not just gonna poof disappear 11:48 < fltrz> Llamamoe, what I consider more annoying is that if you make a longish think and decide to go back to a ball that the surface where the plastic meats itself doesnt remelt properly often, so I have to remelt it and knead thoroughly 11:49 < fltrz> Llamamoe, you mentioned it was fun, so just take a break when youre fed up, and try again later, dont force yourself to play ;) 11:49 < Llamamoe> nah, not fed up, just... crippled by constant background stress, heh x.x 11:50 < fltrz> Llamamoe, even if its not a useful trick, if something was fun / surprising to try let me know 11:50 < Llamamoe> Okey :) 11:51 < fltrz> I also took a plastic sheet once perhaps half or one mm thick, drilled a fine hole through it, and then with force pressed a small piece of molten PCL on it, the result was that it filled the cylindrical cavity and once cool it worked like a hinge :) 11:53 < Llamamoe> Hm hm 11:53 < fltrz> (my original goal was micromanipulators, with a tinge of megalomania, hence why I faithfully inquired about price breaks at different volumes) 11:54 < fltrz> I was envisioning a room sized factory for micromanipulators 11:54 < Llamamoe> What are micromanipulators? 11:54 < Llamamoe> Also, this really is not the best time for chatting with me, I am really... deadened by the background stress, tbh 11:55 < fltrz> in general just small arms with grabbers etc, or sometimes with electrodes attached for probing... I wanted a more faithful small human hand, controlled by real hands 11:55 < fltrz> Llamamoe, don't worry, I wont disappear, no hurry 11:58 < lsneff> fltrz: micromanipulators made from pcl ? 11:58 < fltrz> lsneff, yes why not? 11:59 < fltrz> thin section are flexible, so you can choose between friction fit hinges or flexure hinges 12:00 < fltrz> lsneff, was also considering micro soft robotics from latex. molds could be made from PCL during prototyping, and finalized to metal when suitable 12:01 < fltrz> the latex route was very attractive because it has much lower viscosity than PCL, so you could essentially pour it 12:02 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has quit [] 12:03 < L29Ah> 16:55:32] You don't mouth breathe unless your nose airflow is insufficient, and I'm pretty sure mouth breathing is a definite indicator of SDB, especially since you're unlikely to have just one site of flow limitation - if you have dentofacial deformity (about ~40% of people do) severe enough to have nasal flow limitations, you probably have further airway issues 12:03 < L29Ah> yeah i do, i have some chronic rhinitis that is too minor to poke a doctor about in the middle of the pandemic 12:03 < fltrz> for visual feedback without circle of confusion under large magnification, I would have used digital holographic imaging and then have realtime focus stacking on a GPU or something 12:04 < L29Ah> but sometimes it gives me enough snot to clog a nostril 12:04 -!- filipepe_ [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tzkfkodwjrcjzkkk] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 12:05 < L29Ah> then i often prefer to open my mouth instead of forcing air through the remaining one 12:05 < fltrz> the only times I breathe through my mouth is when I have a flu or something, and imagining to have this daily throughout life sounds like pure horror 12:05 < L29Ah> 17:23:43] juri_: Nope, wish that was just it 12:05 < L29Ah> how do you tell anyway? 12:06 < L29Ah> fltrz: well it's the case at <5% of my uptime 12:07 < L29Ah> also when i go to over 150bpm or so during exercise 12:07 < L29Ah> nose can't provide me enough air 12:08 < fltrz> L29Ah, when I notice having a hard time to breathe I just slow down exercise, its such a short term fix to start breathing through your mouth which in a healthy individual should be an short term emergency measure, like fleeing a predator 12:09 < fltrz> somewhere in between a percentage of gasps is tolerable, after all we also talk 12:11 < fltrz> perhaps people who give long talks at work get used overriding intuition, such that they are more vulnerable to start breathing through nose in other conditions? when I have a flu and I notice one side blocking up I quickly stop breathing through mouth at all to make sure the other side stays open... but when it does get clogged too is when hell starts 12:12 < fltrz> *more vulnerable to start breathing through mouth 12:12 < L29Ah> fltrz: not an option when you do HIIT 12:13 < Llamamoe> L29Ah: Over 150bpm is I think a pretty normal point for nose to not provide enough air 12:13 < Llamamoe> Btw, congestion is not caused by snot, it's swelling of turbinates 12:13 < Llamamoe> Turbinates should not swell enough to block a nostril completely, also 12:13 < Llamamoe> Also, are your nostrils evenly shaped? 12:13 < L29Ah> idk 12:14 < Llamamoe> There's basically two main causes of mouth breathing 12:14 < Llamamoe> Weak muscle, and limited nasal airflow 12:15 < Llamamoe> It does not have to be limited enough to be a problem per se 12:15 < Llamamoe> Just enough for the body to judge it should mouth breathe 12:15 < Llamamoe> And even minor limitations can be problematic during sleep, especially if your nostrils are uneven 12:15 < Llamamoe> Respiratory effort during sleep is basically close to fixed 12:15 < Llamamoe> And airway muscle tone tends to be very relaxed 12:16 < Llamamoe> It does not take a lot of issues to start running into issues, though it takes more to cross problematic thresholds 12:17 < fltrz> Llamamoe, sometimes with heavy exercise / breathing, I notice my nose getting clogged, but also notice quite a lot of slime from the nose down towards my throat, is it possible that heavy breathing out can accidentally force the slime into the nasal cavities blocking it? it can be quite sudden 12:26 < L29Ah> ok gotta drop my magnesium antacid and eat ~4g of creatine per day; after getting bad cramps i'm going to do a blood test for magnesium (and maybe other electrolytes? idk) to see how fucked up my diet is 12:26 < fltrz> Llamamoe, I didnt try it yet, but I do have an electric plate warmer, I will report back if its handy for PCL 12:26 < L29Ah> fltrz: i recommend a hair dryer 12:27 < L29Ah> or better a soldering hot air fan 12:27 < fltrz> L29Ah, sounds loud 12:27 < L29Ah> yup 12:27 < L29Ah> but doesn't require water and provides better control and higher temperature 12:28 < L29Ah> PCL at over 100°C is prone to sticking to skin and burning it a lil if you aren't extra careful tho 12:29 < L29Ah> so i basically only overheat it when i'm going to encase some of my PCB-free 3D electronic contraptions or such in it 12:29 < Llamamoe> Muscle cramps and acid reflux are also among the countless symptoms of SDB, just saying 12:29 < L29Ah> as it lowers the viscosity 12:29 < Llamamoe> But I'll update my questionnaire first before harassing people any more 12:30 < L29Ah> Llamamoe: congrats! you got the Maslow's hammer! 12:30 < Llamamoe> L29Ah: Kind of, yes, but also, SDB is really common, and extremely underdiagnosed 12:32 < fltrz> L29Ah, I once overheated PCL in a test tube in an oven, it started boiling and evaporating, it made a BIG stink 12:32 < L29Ah> wut 12:32 < L29Ah> i believe it will start decomposing way before that 12:32 < L29Ah> i had PCL at ~250° and it didn't visibly decompose afair 12:32 < fltrz> L29Ah, yes I also think perhaps it was the plasticizer, or a chemical reaction 12:33 < fltrz> thats centigrade? 12:33 < L29Ah> ofc 12:33 < Llamamoe> fltrz: Why would they add plasticizers to PCL? 12:33 < L29Ah> i don't use caveman units 12:34 < fltrz> Llamamoe, I don;t even know, but perhaps to lower the melting point or lower the viscosity, but there might be none of that at all, dunno 12:35 < fltrz> Llamamoe, if theres plasticizer its from the original manufacturer (given that all the resellers sell the same size pellets, and have the same melting point etc), so I wouldn't worry 12:35 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-txnimirlavqaqrgd] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 12:36 < fltrz> just don't sniff the plastic like I did 12:36 < fltrz> if you like the taste of plastic go for DMT, at least youll have fun for 15 minutes 12:37 < Llamamoe> fltrz: It would make it non-biosafe, though 12:37 < archels> this 30 MB .tar.xz release download from GitHub seems to be coming in at about 2.2 kB/s 12:37 < archels> what's wrong with you, GitHub 12:37 < Llamamoe> fltrz: DMT as in N,N-DMT ? What does it have to do with plastic? 12:37 < archels> also it seems to redirect to amazonaws.com? suprised it's not on Azure 12:37 < L29Ah> nah, DMT is nothing like burning plastic, it has a very distinct smell 12:37 < fltrz> Llamamoe, it tastes like plastic when inhaling it 12:37 < fltrz> for me it tastes like burning plastic 12:38 < L29Ah> archels: sometimes github redirects one to a shitty server; try accessing the original URL from another IP address 12:38 < archels> oh, good tip, that worked 13:11 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:01 -!- apotheon [~apotheon@copyfree/founder/apotheon] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:06 -!- apotheon [~apotheon@copyfree/founder/apotheon] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:54 < nmz787> lsneff: you should ping azonenberg, in ##sillycon or twitter... he's got his own waveform viewer and is building a super hi-fi rack-mount logic analyzer 15:00 * fltrz has visions of CAMAC crates again 15:06 < fenn> for PCL i like to put a tiny amount of water in a glass bowl and add the pellets and microwave until the pellets are clear, then stir it around with a chopstick or something until it's a glob 15:06 < fenn> and stretch out the unused portion into a stick for reuse (cut it to fit in the bowl) 15:07 < fenn> it can stick to the bowl maybe 15:07 < fenn> not really a problem though 15:07 < fenn> since there's so little mass to heat up, it takes less than a minute and there's no "background mental timer' 15:15 < fenn> L29Ah: magnesium blood plasma tests are unreliable because it does not reflect intracellular magnesium. you need an intracellular red blood cell test or NMR 15:20 < fenn> CAMAC - "Computer Aided Measurement And Control" introduced in 1969 by ESONE and fully defined in 1971 with the standards  EUR4100 and EUR4600. 15:20 < fenn> so basically it's a box that holds circuit boards and is rack mountable 15:20 < fltrz> yes it held modules like amplifiers coincidence circuits etc 15:21 < fltrz> constant fraction discriminators 15:21 < fenn> is this an old thing that is no longer used? 15:21 < fltrz> was widely used till late eighties early nineties 15:22 < fltrz> allowed for fast prototyping of physics setups, with lemo cables 15:23 < fltrz> went the way of the dodo sort of, and now theres less compatibility and more random proprietary devices 15:24 < fltrz> I guess it turned out to be more profitable when less compatible... like engineers / physicists throwing away linux and started using apple or smth 15:25 < fltrz> fenn, was also still in use for at least student physics labs in 2010 era 15:26 < fenn> technology never really dies 15:27 < fltrz> but compatibility can be neglected and fragmentation into random proprietary standards can happen 15:27 < fenn> is realtime digital holographic microscopy possible now? 15:28 < fenn> with non-sucky resolution 15:28 < fltrz> fenn, with modern GPU? sure, its just 2d fft very very roughly speaking 15:29 < fenn> is there a way to do this purely optically? 15:29 < fltrz> focus stacking would make it way more expensive though 15:29 < fltrz> fenn, in theory yes 15:29 < fltrz> but you have to settle on the focus stacking math before designing the optical setup 15:30 < fltrz> fenn, its not going to be cheap, so GPU focus stacking seems like current optimum 15:30 < fltrz> if price is of concern 15:31 < fenn> you only have to do the design work once 15:32 < fenn> so this would be a magic diffraction pattern etched on silicon? 15:32 < fenn> or something like that 15:32 < fltrz> thats true, the thing that seems hardest for purely optical is duplicating image beams without increasing original illumination intensity, so requires optical amplification :( on GPU you can just do the next focus depth fft on the same input frame 15:33 < fltrz> fenn, I think it would be way more complicated 15:34 < fenn> could you instead re-project the captured raw image onto a series of holograms? 15:35 < fltrz> fenn, like record the hologram at normal intensity and then repeatedly read out the hologram for multiple focus depths? that may actually work 15:39 < fltrz> fenn, that would need photorefractive effect 15:43 < fenn> i don't really understand focus stacking and whether the blurry stuff cancels out 15:44 < fenn> when looking at biological tissue, there is the problem of light toxicity 15:44 < fenn> best to illuminate it as little as possible 15:45 < kanzure> .wik dark field microscopy 15:45 < saxo> "Dark-field microscopy (also called dark-ground microscopy) describes microscopy methods, in both light and electron microscopy, which exclude the unscattered beam from the image." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_field_microscopy 15:45 < fenn> that just means you shine the beam at an angle so it misses the lens unless refracted 15:45 < fenn> it's still going through the tissue 15:46 < kanzure> since when do wikipedia animations have music? 15:46 < fenn> they used to be .gif files but apparently that's just too cool for school 15:53 < fltrz> fenn, so digital holography just stores wavefront phase information in the recorded frame, theres different ways of extracting information from this frame, making different kinds of assumptions of the optical setup and what the user wants to visualize projected to 2d again on the screen. Do we want to measure index of refraction variations? Do we want to measure depth profile for a surface where the wavefront propagated through constant index of 15:53 < fltrz> refraction air? do we want to reconstruct for a virtual orthographic or perspective projection? if perspective do we want to extract 2 images for displaced cameras so we can present on say VR goggles? 15:53 < fltrz> all these choices would be trivial to change in code, but would require redesigning the optical setup 15:54 < fltrz> thats combined with price will probably mean we will first see focus stacking on GPU's 15:54 < fenn> it sounds like focus stacking is the least interesting option 15:55 < fenn> you don't even need a special camera to do that 15:55 < fltrz> the advantage of focus stacking is that you 1) remove depth blur and 2) remove variable magnification with depth 15:58 < fltrz> fenn, not sure how interesting this all is for biology, I'm more interested in the constant index of air case, so one can work over large depth variation and use micromanipulators while your "workspace" is in focus throughout say a cubical volume 15:58 < fltrz> for prototyping and assembling on small scales intuitively 16:08 -!- shawwwn [uid6132@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-swhuuntoriwirkcl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:23 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-177-48-202.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:39 < fenn> today musk reiterated that spacex intends to catch boosters instead of landing them: https://twitter.com/DJSnM/status/1344336114413277185 17:01 < kanzure> https://reason.com/2020/12/30/when-there-wasnt-enough-hand-sanitizer-distilleries-stepped-up-now-theyre-facing-14060-fda-fees/ 17:12 < fltrz> fenn, would it make sense to give boosters deployable wings and have them autonomously glide to a collection site? 17:18 < jrayhawk> I had problems with veinous pooling in my cheeks until I started doing high-intensity gum-chewing a couple years ago. My voice also dropped a quarter octave. 17:21 < jrayhawk> I am curious to hear how other cranio-facial-respiratory manipulations work out. 17:30 < fenn> fltrz: if you consider hypersonic grid fins "wings" then they already do that 17:34 < fltrz> so why catch or land them? when you summarized musk's comments did "land" mean using rocket motor or gliding? 17:43 < fltrz> perhaps the fuel equivalent of carrying deployable wings is larger than the cost of trying to catch them? sounds dubious though 17:50 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:54 < fenn> they slow down most of the way with grid fins and aerodynamic drag, and the last couple hundred meters per second with rockets. the "new" thing is eliminating the landing legs 17:55 < fenn> the rocket body itself provides a fair amount of lift, just due to being a big low density structure that is angled into the oncoming airstream 17:56 < fenn> as a cylinder 17:57 < fenn> if you somehow weren't already aware, they already land boosters propulsively using the same rockets that were used to launch 17:59 < fenn> a catcher could eliminate a few m/s at the end, reducing the need for either precision or shock absorbing hardware (which must be carried up and has a payload penalty) 18:17 -!- filipepe_ [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bmszvcyhhlgsnlkb] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:37 -!- shawwwn [uid6132@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-swhuuntoriwirkcl] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 18:55 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:6824:b6aa:245b:b7b] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:35 -!- abetusk [~abe@68.175.128.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:48 -!- abetusk [~abe@68.175.128.91] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:48 -!- abetusk is now known as Guest42251 20:16 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:30 < fenn> i like this new trend of providing a "graphical abstract" 20:30 < fenn> really cuts through the academese barrier 21:16 < fenn> it seems scientists have a much harder time making an absolute mess out of a graphical abstract, compared to a video abstract 21:21 < L29Ah> 02:15:53] L29Ah: magnesium blood plasma tests are unreliable because it does not reflect intracellular magnesium. you need an intracellular red blood cell test or NMR 21:21 < L29Ah> are they? i'd expect something like magnesium reaching equilibrium fast enough at such a constant-ish consumption and excretion rate 21:22 < fenn> the blood plasma fraction is only a tiny percentage of the total in the body. most of it is in the bone and cartilage, but it's the stuff in the cytoplasm that is doing real work 21:22 < L29Ah> 02:46:43] they used to be .gif files but apparently that's just too cool for school 21:22 < L29Ah> gif is just garbage wrt compression and color rendition compared to a proper video format 21:23 < fenn> blood magnesium levels are tightly regulated to a narrow range. too high and you excrete it via the kidneys, too low and the heart or bones release it into the blood 21:23 < fenn> gif is fine for animations 21:24 < fenn> for some reason i usually have to run arbitrary code in order to show a more modern video format 21:24 < fenn> despite browsers supporting video natively for years now 21:25 < fenn> i've never needed javascript to play a gif animation 21:25 < fenn> most people don't know the first thing about optimizing for gif format 21:25 < fenn> and there is a lot of really bad software out there which produces, yes, garbage compression and color rendition 21:26 < Llamamoe> fenn: From my notes: 21:26 < Llamamoe> NOTE: Normal serum level of magnesium is not indicative of adequate bodily levels. Magnesium-Calcium quotient is more indicative(0.4 ideal, 0.36-0.28 too low Mg) 21:26 < Llamamoe> StudyMagnesium: Are We Consuming Enough? | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6316205/ 21:26 < L29Ah> it is garbage regardless, as gif treats each frame as a separate picture to compress, and the compression algorithm is really dumb 21:27 < fenn> that is not correct. an optimized gif file will only update the region that changed 21:27 < fenn> it's run length encoding 21:27 < fenn> works fine on illustrations that have flat areas 21:28 < Llamamoe> So if you want to test your Mg levels, also test Calcium and compare their levels 21:28 < fenn> assuming they haven't already been murderized by previous layers of compression 21:28 < Llamamoe> But I don't remember what kind of accuracy that entails 21:29 < fenn> your link says "Other magnesium measuring methods, including the magnesium loading test, may provide more accurate reflections of total body magnesium status" 21:31 < fenn> "Total serum magnesium, Oral magnesium loading test, Intravenous magnesium loading test, RBC magnesium content, Hair magnesium content, Muscle magnesium content (biopsy), Bone magnesium content, 24-h urinary magnesium, The ratio of ionized to total magnesium" 21:32 < fenn> not sure what to do with this information 21:32 < fenn> clearly the first list entry is "bad" 21:36 < Llamamoe> fenn: The table doesn't state it's good, it just lists common methods of measuring magnesium levels 21:40 < fenn> also whatever happened to animated SVG 21:40 < fenn> i've never seen one in the wild 21:41 -!- filipepe_ [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bmszvcyhhlgsnlkb] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 21:46 < fenn> L29Ah: http://littlesvr.ca/apng/gif_apng_webp1.html 21:47 < Llamamoe> .t https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr2ga3BBMTc 21:47 < saxo> Can An AI Design Our Tax Policy? 💰📊 - YouTube 21:52 < fenn> yes of course, next question 21:53 < Llamamoe> fenn: Can we just deprecate politicians and CEOs already? :| 21:53 < fenn> i hereby give you permission 21:56 < L29Ah> > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6316205/ 21:56 < L29Ah> ok this is depressing; i guess i'll have to resort to a plain magnesium supplementation experimentation with a diary of cramps during a constant-ish creatine level in muscles 21:56 < L29Ah> no idea though if the supplementation can mask other nutrients' deficiency 21:56 < Llamamoe> I have a partial and unfinished list of magnesium salts I compiled in the past 21:57 < L29Ah> magnesia is okay 21:57 < fenn> magnesium citrate in solution is fine 21:57 < fenn> (i noticed it doesn't dissolve very well from solid) 21:58 < fenn> magnesium glycinate is good but maybe "too" good - you can get too much and then feel sick, whereas with citrate you will just have diarrhea 21:58 < Llamamoe> Mg Citrate 1:1(since 3:2 is water insoluble) is most neutral, Mg Chloride if you don't mind inorganic, and most other organic salts work fine(though e.g. Glycine in glycinate is neuroactive) 21:59 < Llamamoe> 1:1 citrate or chloride are probably best since they have highest oral bioavailability x mg content by weight ratios 21:59 < fenn> doesn't matter in the least 21:59 < fenn> you're not planning an interplanetary expedition 22:00 < Llamamoe> It slightly does since unabsorbed magnesium is laxative 22:01 < fenn> what are you trying to say about weight ratio? 22:01 < Llamamoe> Mg content by weight in % 22:01 < fenn> and why does that matter 22:02 < Llamamoe> Screenshot of my incomplete file: https://i.imgur.com/EnsN2gm.png 22:02 < fenn> a screenshot of text 22:02 < Llamamoe> Yup 22:03 < fenn> when i am god emperor you will be judged harshly 22:03 < Llamamoe> fenn: Punish me harder daddo emperor 22:05 < L29Ah> Llamamoe: you have conflicting stuff in MgO description and BA% 22:05 < L29Ah> also your font sucks 22:06 < Llamamoe> L29Ah: Not exactly. The BA *is* high, in tiny quantities, it's just not soluble enough for the absorption to actually happen. 22:06 < L29Ah> [citation needed] 22:06 < L29Ah> the solubility doesn't matter 22:06 < Llamamoe> Okay fine lemme just copypasta the whole thing 22:06 < fenn> it's converted to MgCl in the stomach 22:06 < L29Ah> as it's converted to a chloride in ur stomach 22:06 < Llamamoe> Hmmmmmm... 22:07 < fenn> also, antacids are bad mmkay 22:07 < Llamamoe> https://pastebin.com/72yA93hv 22:07 < L29Ah> are they? 22:07 < fenn> you wouldn't download an ulcer 22:07 < Llamamoe> L29Ah: If you have a study on total bioavailabiliy of magnesium oxide link me 22:08 < Llamamoe> I sourced the BA% stuff from: https://sci-hub.tw/10.1684/mrh.2014.0374 22:08 < L29Ah> download? 22:08 < Llamamoe> Here's the relevant table itself, recombined from two pieces: https://i.imgur.com/a8QizsL.png 22:08 < L29Ah> Llamamoe: so what about the source for "2%" thing? 22:08 < Llamamoe> This study 22:09 < Llamamoe> There's more context in it 22:09 < L29Ah> ok thanks 22:09 < Llamamoe> Oh sorry, .tw scihub domain is dead 22:09 < Llamamoe> https://sci-hub.se/10.1684/mrh.2014.0374 22:10 < Llamamoe> Also, wouldn't it need to be soluble in stomach acid to get converted to Mg Chloride? 22:12 < fenn> take some MgO, put it in a beaker, add HCl and swish around at 37C 22:12 < Llamamoe> Wish I had such things :-P But alas I do not 22:12 < L29Ah> > The results indicate that any differences in the Mg bioavailability of the compounds were small and physiologically irrelevant. 22:13 < fenn> it takes about a minute to dissolve 22:14 < L29Ah> "dissolve" 22:14 < fenn> i think the main difference in bioavailability is that the ionic transporters in the intestinal lumen get saturated quickly 22:14 < fenn> when it's weakly bound to an amino acid or sugar, those amino or sugar transporters can drag the ion along 22:14 < fenn> when the amino or sugar is transported 22:15 < L29Ah> i doubt the bounds survive the stomach 22:15 < fenn> the stoichiometry remains 22:15 < L29Ah> probably makes sense if you don't eat anything else 22:15 < fenn> right 22:15 < fenn> weak acids (like aminos) have a lower dissociation constant 22:16 < fenn> this means that, at equilibrium, the compound is in a molecular state a larger fraction of the time 22:17 < fenn> vs say MgCl which is as soluble as you can get 22:18 < fenn> s/molecular/undissociated/ 22:18 < Llamamoe> I guess the side effects are what makes or breaks here 22:19 < fenn> i read the paper on mg threose. it has effects that other salts do not 22:19 < Llamamoe> There's also interesting stuff like Mg Taurate and Mg Threonate which have higher brain uptake relative to total availability 22:19 < fenn> yeah, haven't experimented on myself with those yet 22:19 < Llamamoe> Also many of the organic molecules are bioactive in their own right 22:20 < Llamamoe> E.g. Glycine is an orally bioavailable inhibitory neurotransmitter 22:20 < Llamamoe> Which is why some people take Mg Glycinate as a sedative 22:20 < fenn> if you say so 22:20 < fenn> it's a GABA precursor 22:20 < fenn> i didn't notice anything at all 22:21 < Llamamoe> fenn: It's an actual neurotransmitter in its own right. It has receptors, vesicles, transporters, is released on neuronal firing 22:21 < L29Ah> 09:18:54] I guess the side effects are what makes or breaks here 22:21 < L29Ah> i'd be okay with a diarrhea tbh as i have ~11 shits per month 22:22 < Llamamoe> L29Ah: That sounds a little abnormal O_O 22:22 < fenn> oh my bad i was thinking glutamine 22:22 < L29Ah> yup, i suspect my intestinal motorics is wrecked after a salmonella infection 22:23 < Llamamoe> NP 22:23 < Llamamoe> I think glutamine itself is neuroactive too, but I don't remember 22:24 < Llamamoe> I know ratios of other neurotransmitters with glutamine is a common type of measure in neuroscience 22:24 < Llamamoe> E.g glutamine/glutamate ratio 22:24 < Llamamoe> .t https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-020-0760-6 22:24 < saxo> Glutamine-to-glutamate ratio in the nucleus accumbens predicts effort-based motivated performance in humans | Neuropsychopharmacology 22:25 < fenn> oh jeez i thought they were the same thing 22:27 < Llamamoe> fenn: Wait until you realize how much of different stuff is mediated by shittons of weird metabolites of main neurotransmitters 22:27 < fenn> it's a terrible mess. time for a do-over 22:28 < Llamamoe> And how fucking tough it is to keep track of which neurotransmission and neuromodulation systems are co-expressed on different neurons 22:28 < Llamamoe> I pretty much gave up, I just treat the whole thing as an empirical science with a side dish of theory 22:28 < Llamamoe> You'd need to sacrifice your life to neurochemistry to keep track of this shit 22:29 < fenn> i can pretend i learned something by reading "on intelligence" 22:29 < fenn> it actually does provide an understandable narrative for how a mind works 22:29 < fenn> the cortex at least 22:30 < Llamamoe> fenn: Is that a book, or-? 22:30 < fenn> yes, it's a really broad overview of neuroscience and hierarchical neural networks 22:31 < fenn> in the book, he complains bitterly about how no neuroscientists are even trying to make sense of the whole picture 22:31 < L29Ah> the perceptual control theory makes more sense wrt mind workings tbh 22:32 < L29Ah> while i'm not sure you can apply the stuff from On Intelligence to the everyday meatbag operations and interactions 22:32 < fenn> that's like pigeons in boxes right? 22:32 < fenn> i'm talking about how you go from an array of pixels to "cat" 22:33 < L29Ah> i think you can explain it away with a perceptron just as well 22:33 < fenn> hmm apparently this is covered by PCT as well 22:34 < fenn> these two theories might be mathematically equivalent 22:34 < Llamamoe> L29Ah: I love PCT, it's basically exactly what I rediscovered with my own insights before learning about it 22:35 < Llamamoe> The way I view humans and their minds is pretty unusual, overall. 22:35 < fenn> ok i have read this sentence about ten times now: "Actions are not controlled, they are varied so as to cancel the effects that unpredictable environmental disturbances would otherwise have on controlled perceptions." 22:35 < Llamamoe> I'll have to write it down some day, though until then I'm just gonna stick to randomly rambling sometimes(not now) 22:37 < fenn> is this just a fancy way of saying "reality is all in your head"? 22:38 < Llamamoe> fenn: My own relevant to this quote take is: 22:39 < L29Ah> fenn: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Perceptual_control_theory&diff=prev&oldid=406023399&diffmode=source 22:39 < Llamamoe> What the human brain does, is basically the same as artificial neural networks, it compresses input data into representations, inferring correlations through statistical processes 22:40 < Llamamoe> When presented with things too far outside its "model of reality"(or an aspect/subdomain of reality), it runs into cognitive dissonance, which is stressful(since it requires energy to resolve) and an error detection mechanism 22:40 < Llamamoe> It then needs to process and internalize dissonant stimuli into an updated model 22:40 < fenn> L29Ah: could you just link to whatever it is instead of a wikipedia diff? 22:41 < Llamamoe> Humans tend to avoid cognitive dissonance, often at the cost of giving up on actual understanding(e.g. "coronavirus is scary"+"i don't wanna be scared" => "it's all made up") 22:41 < L29Ah> i meant to illustrate the reasoning behind such a phrase that indeed looks unclear 22:41 < Llamamoe> I think what the quote is saying sounds a bit similar to my take here, and maybe that is what it is saying 22:41 < Llamamoe> Or maybe it is not, I don't care 22:42 < L29Ah> i guess the author had a little fight with a vanished strawman or smth 22:43 < fenn> L29Ah: it looks like someone drove by and turned the sentence into a pile of shit 22:48 < fenn> there. fixed. 22:50 * fenn grumbles about passive tense 22:52 < fenn> PCT seems to be missing something about "perception" of imaginary scenarios 22:53 < L29Ah> or explorative behavior in general 22:53 < fenn> imagining practicing a skill is almost as good as actually practicing it 22:53 < fenn> see: dreams, etc 22:54 < Llamamoe> I believe dreams seem to be more of an experience replay/reconsolidation mechanism than a simulated reality thing, though idk 22:55 < L29Ah> s/mechanism/side effect/ 22:55 < fenn> The tag defines a text that has been inserted into a document. 22:55 < fenn> never seen that one before 22:55 < Llamamoe> L29Ah: If you mean dream recall being a side effect, then probably 22:57 < L29Ah> i can't tell those apart 22:58 < Llamamoe> But dreams themselves are very important and obvious evolutionarily deliberate 22:58 < Llamamoe> Loss of dreams does bizarre things to human psyche 22:58 < L29Ah> s/dreams/REM sleep/? 22:59 < Llamamoe> Both. Dreams aren't limited to REM. 22:59 < Llamamoe> There's dreams in NREM too, though they're significantly different 23:06 < fenn> poo. i can't get dillo to recognize 23:07 < L29Ah> isn't dillo abandonware these days? 23:07 < L29Ah> a year ago it didn't even have its VCS repo online 23:07 < fenn> isn't everything abandonware these days? 23:07 < L29Ah> no! 23:08 < fenn> it's all "cloud" and "mobile" now right? 23:09 < L29Ah> i mean html/css/js is a huge complex mess and i'm not sure it makes much sense to support an arbitrary small subset of it (and vimperator is just so much nicer!) 23:10 < fenn> whatever vimperator is doing is not what i'm interested in 23:10 < fenn> i just want a browser that is not a huge memory hog and responds quickly when i do things 23:11 < fenn> it shouldn't take ten seconds to load a page. ideally less than 100 milliseconds 23:12 < fenn> usually i try to load something in dillo and if it doesn't work i groan and try another browser and wait and curse the names of the poor sods who got conned into making the website 23:12 < fenn> and 90% of the time if it doesn't work in dillo i end up being disappointed in the end 23:12 < fenn> but when wikipedia doesn't work, that's a problem! 23:13 < L29Ah> tested https://google.com on palemoon and dillo, eyeballed it at <1s and <500ms on my 20W CPU 23:14 < fenn> bad test 23:14 < fenn> try amazon.com 23:15 < L29Ah> <3s PM, <2s dillo, while in dillo the layout is royally fucked up 23:16 < fenn> 15s here, and scrolls at 1 fps 23:16 < L29Ah> i hope you've disabled the smooth scrolling thing 23:16 < fenn> google.com loads in under a second 23:17 < L29Ah> as it's slow and cpu-hungry 23:17 < fenn> yes it's disabled 23:17 < fenn> also i hate it 23:17 < fenn> i hate the idea of it 23:17 < fenn> fuck you i'll scroll how i want, webdevs! 23:18 < L29Ah> idk why you get 1fps then, some gpu driver issues maybe? 23:19 < L29Ah> about:support should tell something about graphics 23:20 < fenn> i'm using chromium 23:20 < fenn> because it used to be better at not bloating memory than firefox :( 23:21 < L29Ah> i expect chromium being even more reliant on GPUs these days 23:21 < L29Ah> due to the huge effort expended in making it work smoothly on pocket devices 23:21 -!- Guest42251 is now known as abetusk 23:22 < fenn> it sounds plausible as a theory but doesn't really help unfortunately 23:23 < Llamamoe> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749382095113289800/794103188687945748/unknown.png 23:23 < L29Ah> anyway checked amazon.com out in qutebrowser (that's qtwebengine (that's chromium)), <3s, scrolls instantly 23:23 < fenn> so "use chromium" - great 23:24 < fenn> "works for me!" 23:24 < fenn> i had been using midori (webkit) for a while as a middle ground 23:25 < L29Ah> it's not "works for me", it's "go check your GPU drivers setup" 23:25 < fenn> i'm pretty sure my GPU drivers are not supported and won't ever be 23:26 < L29Ah> your GPU drivers don't support OpenGL? 23:26 < fenn> no, chrome doesn't like my drivers 23:26 < fenn> WebGL is not OpenGL 23:26 < L29Ah> amazon.com has nothing to do with webgl 23:26 < L29Ah> i'm talking about page rendering, not webgl stuff 23:28 < Llamamoe> This is more clear as an image: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/414844760952406027/794104555524456448/unknown.png 23:28 < L29Ah> also you can try palemoon if you feel google scheming against your drivers 23:29 < L29Ah> but i'm pretty sure it has its own kind of about:support that can tell you its decisions wrt GPU 23:29 < fenn> what's the difference between palemoon and iceweasel? 23:29 < fenn> oh right, they killed the add-ons 23:29 < L29Ah> iceweasel isn't XUL, is it? 23:31 < fenn> the iceweasel is now extinct 23:32 < fenn> i guess IceCat is close enough 23:32 < fenn> excuse me, GNU IceCat (gotta get that in there) 23:33 * fenn cries 23:33 < Llamamoe> fltrz: Btw, any idea how I could determine if the PCL I got contains plasticizers? 23:33 < fenn> unless you have a chem lab, your only option is melting point determination 23:34 < fenn> adulterants would lower the melting point 23:34 < L29Ah> heat to 300° and check if you get any boiling in your way up to it? 23:35 < L29Ah> ouch, nvm, lots of plasticizers have a BP of over 300° 23:36 < L29Ah> i highly doubt though that anyone would add plasticizers to PCL 23:36 < fenn> there are two kinds of PCL, one for injection molding, and one for glomming onto stuff with a tea kettle 23:36 < L29Ah> as its Tg is -60 23:36 < fenn> the injection molding kind has lower viscosity 23:37 < apotheon> My experience of Chrome and Firefox memory usage is that Firefox tended to gradually bloat over time due to memory fragmentation, while Chrome just tended to use more per tab but cleaned up after itself better when tabs closed (because of not having the same fragmentation problem). 23:39 < L29Ah> yeah FF and its forks gradually climb to a couple of GBs ime 23:41 < apotheon> I prefer Vimb when I can get away with it. 23:42 < apotheon> It could be better, but it seems to be the best still-maintained basic browser user experience design for my preferences. 23:43 < apotheon> The best I've seen (ever) was xombrero, but changes in WebKitGtk broke some of its core design principles. 23:43 < L29Ah> uzbl was nice 23:45 < apotheon> It had its charms. 23:46 < apotheon> I liked the pipeline-ish architecture as an interesting idea, anyway. 23:48 < apotheon> I think Mozilla kinda screwed itself when it intentionally broke the ease of use of the Firefox rendering engine for building more browsers. It got to the point where Firefox had the largest usage share of browsers, briefly, but never hit a majority, and Mozilla got cocky. 23:49 < apotheon> By killing to the portability of the rendering engine to other front ends, it killed off a lot of the growth of Firefox-compatible browsers, which made it less critical for widespread support than it was before. 23:50 < fenn> so many of these "alternative" browsers are "keyboard based" or "terminal based" and entirely missing the point that 99% of the work is in parsing the html and deciding what to do with it 23:50 < apotheon> Mozilla should have kept encouraging devs making compatible browsers to ensure continued growing share of web users of the Mozilla flagship rendering engine until it had a true majority, at least, before deciding to get all anticompetitive. 23:51 < apotheon> A loss of momentum let Chrome catch up and surpass Firefox pretty easily. 23:52 < fenn> it's kinda sad that mozilla, an entire company, is competing with a single team at google 23:52 < fenn> i hope i'm simply mistaken in this impression 23:52 < apotheon> fenn: How are they missing the point? I get the impression many of them are aware of the level of work that goes into the rendering engine's capabilities, and just want to provide a different user experience on top of that. 23:53 < fenn> the page UI is a tiny amount of code 23:53 < fenn> really any browser should be "uzbl" 23:53 < fenn> oh wait that's not yet another vim keybinding thing 23:54 < fenn> or is it 23:54 < fenn> gah 23:55 < fenn> ok it's webkit with some vim keybindings slapped on 23:55 < apotheon> Something like Vimb (a better vi-like UI for a browser, basically) is necessary as a separate browser project these days, because Firefox and Chrome both have crippled extension systems these days, and do only the most miserably broken job of supporting vi-like UI extensions. 23:56 < apotheon> uzbl is built in a way to make it basically a modular thing, so you can basically treat its parts kinda like Unix pipeline 23:57 < apotheon> It essentially makes the idea of add-ons, extensions, and plugins -- and even core functionality -- unrestricted in a way except by the imagination of the people making them. 23:57 < apotheon> kinda 23:57 < apotheon> It wasn't perfect. 23:57 < fenn> chrome and firefox are focused on protecting the user from himself 23:57 < apotheon> It was an interesting idea, though. 23:58 < Llamamoe> Can we just get rid of the web and start over, please? 23:58 < apotheon> They also focus on protecting their web use share from others, but in the process Firefox is also protecting Chrome's share from Firefox. 23:58 < apotheon> Llamamoe: I'm not entirely opposed to that. 23:59 * fenn directs Llamamoe to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemini_(protocol) 23:59 < Llamamoe> Strict VM-level control of data sources vs destinations and where it's allowed to be used, strict separation of data from presentation(HTML/CSS is just not good enough, HTML is both data and presentation, CSS is just a small aspect of presentation), distributed decentralized network architecture, inextricable encryption 23:59 < apotheon> If that's the new Gopher-like thing, that's exactly what I was trying to find. 23:59 < apotheon> (re: Gemini) 23:59 * apotheon needs to open a browser now. --- Log closed Thu Dec 31 00:00:03 2020