--- Log opened Thu Feb 04 00:00:35 2021 01:18 -!- fltrz [~fltrz@109.236.129.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:39 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-94-112-205-34.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:07 -!- fltrz [~fltrz@109.236.129.101] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:22 -!- ottavio [~m0ttv@unaffiliated/m0ttv] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:22 -!- ottavio_ [~m0ttv@unaffiliated/m0ttv] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:22 -!- ottavio [~m0ttv@unaffiliated/m0ttv] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:22 -!- ottavio_ is now known as ottavio 03:27 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-113-82-16.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:46 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yvdhouahjkrokwtr] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:12 -!- srk [~sorki@gateway/tor-sasl/sorki] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:19 -!- srk [~sorki@gateway/tor-sasl/sorki] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:38 < L29Ah> https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1357275352788131840 04:38 < L29Ah> .t 04:38 < saxo> I'm so glad @Kurz_Gesagt did a video on the death toll of nuclear energy. // No matter what you think of nuclear power on its own merits, fossil fuels kill ~500 times more people than nuclear does, per unit of energy. // https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jzfpyo-q-RM (@marcan42) 04:41 < fenn> "there’s no obvious way for all that sensory data to be captured in synapses as long term memories," umm wat 04:43 < ottavio> A nuclear plant can also be used to make nuclear weapons. 04:44 < fenn> lsneff: most of the lamarckian stuff can be explained by epigenetic modifications (small functional groups stuck to the side of the DNA molecule) 04:44 < ottavio> Nuclear energy was debunked already in the 70s/80s. I'm old enough to remember that. 04:44 < fenn> there are also RNA modifications, it's just that RNA doesn't last very long in a cell 04:45 < fenn> "debunked" 04:45 < fenn> your mom was debunked 04:45 < fenn> how stupid can people get 04:45 < fenn> there a trillion dollar industry that would be eliminated if we switched to nuclear power 04:46 < fenn> better handcuff it with endless bureaucracy before that happens 04:46 < L29Ah> ottavio: and nuclear weapons are good 04:46 < L29Ah> i'd like to have one 04:47 < ottavio> fenn: you haven't taken your daily adderall yet 04:47 < fenn> yes, because i don't take adderall 04:47 < ottavio> L29Ah: yeah, especially in the hands of Iran/NK, etc. 04:47 < ottavio> fenn: you probably need it though. 04:48 < L29Ah> no problemo 04:48 < L29Ah> SK should get one too, but now it's US puppet state :/ 04:48 < fenn> how about just offering nuclear insurance policies 04:48 < fenn> if someone invades your country, we'll nuke 'em 04:49 < ottavio> we who? 04:49 < fenn> whoever is selling the policy 04:49 < fenn> in the book i read, it was kazakhstan 04:49 < ottavio> Is there a world outside the u s of a? 04:49 < fenn> good question! 04:50 < ottavio> Many/most inhabitants of the us of a think there is none, so it's ok to invade and nuke the rest of the world. 04:51 < ottavio> Nothing new, rape and pillage are the basis of world domination. 04:51 < fenn> so would you rather have invasions or nukings? 04:51 < fenn> can i interest you in an insurance policy? 04:51 < ottavio> fenn: what distorted mind would imply this from my statement? 04:52 < fenn> well it's hard to engage in rape and pillage with a smoking crater 04:52 < fenn> your statement implies you prefer nukes 04:52 < fenn> unless you prefer world domination 04:52 < fenn> but i'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt here 04:52 < ottavio> fenn: you don't understand sarcasm,. You're either American or German. 04:53 < fenn> no YOU don't understand sarcasm 04:53 < fenn> i'm martian 04:53 < ottavio> no you no you. It's all ME ME ME ME..... 04:54 < ottavio> I went past the "no, you!! at around 3 04 4 years of age. 04:54 < ottavio> s/3 or 4 04:55 < L29Ah> so, how much for the nuke? 04:55 < fenn> One Billion Dollars 04:55 < L29Ah> damn that's expensive 04:55 < L29Ah> DIYing one is probably cheaper 04:56 < fenn> but how much is your peace of mind worth? 04:56 < fenn> you can see i've given this at least ten minutes of thought 05:01 < ottavio> L29Ah: dying is even cheaper. 05:10 < fenn> "In 1820 Felix Walker, who represented Buncombe County, North Carolina, in the U.S. House of Representatives, rose to address the question of admitting Missouri as a free or slave state. This was his first attempt to speak on this subject after nearly a month of solid debate and right before the vote was to be called." 05:10 < fenn> 'His persistent effort made "buncombe" (later respelled "bunkum") a synonym for meaningless political claptrap' 05:13 < fenn> etymology is always far weirder than you'd expect 05:29 < fenn> people have lived normal lives with giant pieces of their liver removed 05:35 < fenn> .title http://www.eneuro.org/content/5/3/ENEURO.0038-18.2018 05:35 < saxo> RNA from Trained Aplysia Can Induce an Epigenetic Engram for Long-Term Sensitization in Untrained Aplysia | eNeuro 05:36 < fenn> so basically if you kick a dog (sea slug) the puppies (slugs injected with slug extract) will flinch more readily 05:36 < fenn> this is a million miles from "ticker tape RNA computers" 05:59 < fenn> ron maimon seems like a smart guy, but he seems to have never heard of a synapse 06:01 < fenn> i mean, of course neurons are mostly DNA, there's not enough room for anything else. there are even microscopic wasps that have such high evolutionary pressure to reduce the size of their brains that their neurons have no cellular nucleus at all 07:38 -!- fenn [~fenn@unaffiliated/fenn] has quit [Quit: brb] 07:38 -!- fenn [~fenn@unaffiliated/fenn] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:13 < apotheon> Wow. What the hell was that "conversation" about nukes? 08:13 < apotheon> Maybe I don't want to know. 08:28 < docl> just internet autists snarking back and forth :P 08:40 < docl> radiation poisoning causes trauma analogous enough to rape that nuclear bombs are extraordinarily unethical to use even if deaths alone hypothetically wouldn't justify not using them. but I do question the idea that bombs are a consequence of using nuclear power. you can make nuclear bombs with enriched uranium, so a power plant isn't needed. 08:47 < apotheon> Don't you need a nuclear reactor to make enriched uranium? 08:48 < docl> no, just a centrifuge 08:48 < apotheon> ah 08:48 < apotheon> righto 08:49 < docl> nuclear reactors make plutonium though, which can be used instead of enriched uranium 08:49 < docl> for both bombs and power 08:49 < apotheon> Yeah, there's that. 08:49 < apotheon> I think you need a particular type of reactor to produce plutonium, too. 08:49 < apotheon> . . . but I haven't read up on this stuff for probably twenty years. 08:50 < apotheon> Other information in my brain has replaced any certainty about this kind of thing. 08:50 < docl> basically for any reactor (even thorium) you need fissile material (stuff that breaks down and makes high velocity neutrons) 08:51 < apotheon> sure 08:51 < apotheon> That's why it's a "nuclear" reactor. 08:51 < docl> the only naturally occurring source is uranium-235, but most uranium is U-238 and it can't be separated by chemical means so you have to do something like a centrifuge 08:52 < apotheon> There's gaseous diffusion method, too, but I think it's not very energy-efficient. 08:52 < docl> well, I shouldn't say it's not possible -- you could bombard non-fissile material with high speed electrons. but the only cost effective way is probably safe to claim 08:52 < apotheon> s/There's/There's a/ 08:52 < docl> yeah, the difference in particle size might be a way to enrich (not familiar, just thinking from first principles) 08:53 < apotheon> I think there was some talk years ago of laser excitation for an even more economical approach than using a centrifuge. 08:54 < docl> I think one method involves centrifuging the gaseous form 08:54 < kanzure> relocation error: /lib/i386-linux-gnu/libnss_files.so.2: symbol __libc_readline_unlocked, version GLIBC_PRIVATE not defined in file libc.so.6 with link time reference 08:54 < kanzure> jrayhawk_: :( 08:54 < fenn> kanzure: got the same error, restarted irssi and it's fine now 08:54 < docl> yeah if you can ionize it, pretty much any ionic stream can be separated based on mass/charge ratio 08:55 < docl> that's what a mass spectrometer does 08:55 < kanzure> oof restarting irssi? that's asking a lot of me. 08:55 < apotheon> Ah, I never looked into how mass specs work. 08:55 < apotheon> That's interesting. 08:55 < kanzure> 08:55:44 up 822 days, 9:59, 2 users, load average: 2.49, 2.20, 2.05 08:55 < docl> it's something like 10x as energy intensive as breaking typical chemical bonds. otherwise we could do pretty much any metal from arbitrary mixes of dirt 08:56 < kanzure> jrayhawk_: fine, let's reboot :( 08:57 < apotheon> 1. pour dirt into arbitrary-metal-sintering-printer 08:57 < apotheon> 2. don your protective eyewear 08:57 < apotheon> 3. hit "go" and watch metal emerge 08:58 < apotheon> the future; home-printing titanium parts for your flying car 08:58 < docl> lol pretty much 08:58 < apotheon> 4. . . . 08:58 < apotheon> 5. PROFIT!!! 08:59 < apotheon> Between that and Mr. Fusion, I think we're set. 08:59 < docl> in space, where local energy is cheap, you could reduce metal this way. otoh you have abundant pure metal already with M-type asteroids. 08:59 < fenn> kanzure: plz read what i said again 08:59 < docl> well, it's alloyed. but close to steel already 08:59 < apotheon> There's also the problem of shipping dirt to your orbital metal refinery. 09:00 < kanzure> fenn: but we do need to reboot eventually 09:00 < docl> use lunar dirt or asteroid dirt (stony asteroids e.g) 09:00 < apotheon> It's probably best to go the asteroid route. 09:00 < apotheon> The "metal from dirt" idea really only appeals if we're still planetside, I think. 09:00 < fenn> fine reboot 09:01 -!- srk [~sorki@gateway/tor-sasl/sorki] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:01 < docl> depends what metal you want. for aluminum, calcium, silicon, etc. that are abundant in dirt you still need it 09:01 < fenn> then i can get this "nuclear reactors are analogous to rape" out of my scrollback 09:01 < kanzure> :( sad day 09:02 < apotheon> The Future Of Warfare™: refine metal from an asteroid, pack it into a single lump, launch it from orbit into a strategic target on the planetary surface, then send someone to scoop up the remaining metal core and use it in surface manufacturing 09:02 -!- srk [~sorki@gateway/tor-sasl/sorki] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:02 < apotheon> It's the environmentally friendly way to obliterate whole cities. 09:03 < docl> impact weapons are a big concern, yeah 09:03 < docl> for uninhabited planets e.g. Mercury you might use impactors to deliver more mass to orbit 09:03 < fenn> literally raping mother earth 09:04 < fenn> we should ban space travel because someone might do it 09:04 < apotheon> "LOOK AT ALL THIS TUNGSTEN WE GOT OUT OF THAT ASTEROID! If only we could more cheaply get it to Earth. Oh, wait -- does our country want to destroy the capitol of that other country? Okay, this just got a lot cheaper." 09:04 < docl> we just need good defenses against impactors... which space travel helps with 09:05 < apotheon> I suppose we could just wait for space to throw projectiles at us, instead. 09:05 < apotheon> Space Itself® 09:06 < apotheon> or the aliens broadcasting at just over 4Mhz 09:06 < apotheon> err 09:06 < apotheon> s/4/400/ 09:06 < apotheon> how the hell did I screw that up 09:07 < apotheon> It may be more efficient to get space to do it, but it's difficult to plan around that kind of thing. 09:19 < docl> anyway delivering materials safely is possible using aerobraking. not super infeasible to crash the metal market. 09:20 < apotheon> true 09:20 < apotheon> Crashing the metal market could potentially kill more people in the long run than obliterating a small city. 09:21 < apotheon> It could also potentially contribute to tremendous improvements in longevity research, so . . . yeah. 09:21 < docl> but my money is more on next gen nanotech that acts as photocatalyst. you can spread your dirt on a field of plastic liner and collect nuggets of metal after it separates under the influence of sunlight. 09:22 < apotheon> "Sure, a bunch of mining operations tanked, and a bunch of people's jobs and retirement funds died horrible deaths, but now it's a lot cheaper to make previously expensive research equipment." 09:22 < docl> plants are <5% efficient at turning sunlight into chemical energy 09:22 < apotheon> docl: Yeah, that's an idea. 09:22 < apotheon> grey goo 09:22 < apotheon> carefully (we hope) contained 09:22 < docl> whereas PV is more like 20% efficient at making electrical energy 09:23 < docl> if you have these kinds of engineered catalysts, you can make catalysts to break them down 09:23 < apotheon> You don't even need to expend energy converting electrical energy into electrical energy. 09:23 < docl> molecular level self rep is more advanced than just causing arbitrary reactions to take place 09:24 < apotheon> In case of containment breach, immediately don your nanotech breakdown catalyst suits. 09:24 < docl> yeah but turning electrical into chemical is another step, which is why sabatier doesn't compare well to plants even though PV is more efficient 09:27 < docl> but with good photocatalysts you could turn sunlight + CO2 into petrochemicals and plastics 09:29 < fenn> hey maybe you shouldn't tie the value of human life to artificial scarcity, just an idea 09:30 < docl> also you could use an engineered catalyst for low temp cracking of methane into peterochemicals and plastics. huge profits to be made there, since methane is cheap, and it can convert the excess hydrogen to water to fuel the reaction (doesn't need to be a photocatalyst). 09:31 < docl> fenn: I'm with you on nuclear reactors being great but bombs are a different story. not bombing people is an important ethical principle. 09:31 < fenn> the term "cracking" means going from a long chain hydrocarbon to a shorter one 09:31 < docl> fenn: I've seen it used for shorter to longer 09:32 < fenn> i'll take a cold war over WWIII any day 09:32 < docl> the hydrogen has to be removed and its bond replaced with a carbon-carbon bond 09:33 < docl> methane is basically the shortest possible hydrocarbon chain (although not really even a chain, it's a monomer) 09:36 < docl> .title https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0360319910022500 09:36 < saxo> Review of methane catalytic cracking for hydrogen production - ScienceDirect 09:37 < fenn> in general i think it's called reforming, but the specific reaction is the water gas shift reaction 09:37 < fenn> catalytic reforming* 09:37 < fenn> steam reforming is something else 09:37 < docl> basically if you heat the methane up you'll get some hydrogen and longer hydrocarbon chains 09:38 < fenn> under pressure 09:38 < fenn> to drive the reaction 09:38 < docl> right 09:39 < docl> but getting that to happen at a low temperature hasn't happened to my knowledge. could happen if you convert some of the H2 to water, but the right catalyst is needed. 09:47 < fenn> you could use a thin steel membrane to separate the hydrogen out 09:47 < fenn> since hydrogen dissolves in steel but not methane 09:49 < apotheon> 17:29 < fenn> hey maybe you shouldn't tie the value of human life to artificial scarcity, just an idea 09:49 < apotheon> I'm not even sure what that statement is supposed to mean. 09:50 < fenn> it was in response to crashing the metals market being a bad thing 09:51 < docl> ah, that sentiment I agree with 09:51 < apotheon> I didn't say it was *bad*. I just referred to potential effects. 09:52 < docl> I figure the mining companies crashing wouldn't wreck a balanced portfolio because manufacturing companies would boom 09:52 < apotheon> I guess my response to the comment about artificial scarcity is "Don't use that as an excuse to ignore the indirect effects of what you do when trying to decide what to do. Consider things carefully." 09:52 -!- thahxa [~thahxa@lnsm1-torontoxn-142-116-155-169.internet.virginmobile.ca] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:52 < apotheon> . . . without any implication of what precisely the consideration should yield. 09:53 < fenn> i hate the "work" system and want to move past it 09:53 < fenn> it takes the fun out of everything 09:54 < apotheon> It's likely that it wouldn't just *catastrophically* crash mining operations, anyway, because there's generally a lot of informative lead-up time to something revolutionizing a basic material source during which people can adjust future expectations. 09:54 < docl> yeah the work system all too frequently trashes enthusiasm imo 10:03 < docl> it's just that the replacement needs to work (function) as well or better 10:04 < docl> automate enough stuff and this might not be such a high bar to clear... 10:05 < fenn> if we pay people for the salary they would have earned had their jobs not been automated, it will remove the obstruction incentive 10:11 < apotheon> Redecentralizing production is happening, slowly, and that can help do away with what I suspect you're referring to as "the work system". 10:12 < apotheon> Centralized automation can do a lot of that, too, but only at the almost certain cost of a lot of human misery. 10:12 < fenn> no you're missing the point 10:12 < fenn> we have magical santa claus machines that can poop out enormous quantities of consumer stuff 10:13 < apotheon> Just magically printing money and handing it out will also cause a lot of human misery. 10:13 < fenn> because you're essentially taking it from bank accounts 10:13 < apotheon> Increasing the quantity of units of currency in circulation just reduces the per-unit demand. 10:14 < fenn> a long time ago it was difficult to make stuff and there wasn't enough stuff to go around 10:14 < apotheon> . . . which results in the same overall value represented in the economy, but increases the disparity in distribution. 10:15 < fenn> now we have lots of stuff, but not an infinite amount, so it still has value. but the amount of work required to buy a unit of stuff is all out of balance compared to the actual cost to make the stuff 10:16 < fenn> and in addition there are things like land value and education and healthcare that are not improved at all by having lots of stuff, and those actually get MORE expensive the cheaper stuff gets 10:16 < apotheon> Decentralizing production would place production much closer to use, thus eliminating a lot of that cost -- including the currency-centralizing operations of public corporations. 10:17 < fenn> meh transportation is pretty cheap 10:18 < fenn> anyway you still need to work a lot just to pay for crap like land value and education and healthcare, and that's stupid 10:20 < fenn> the actual stuff needed to live like a (medieval) king is basically free now 10:20 < apotheon> Transportation is cheap because of government spending shit-tons of money on subsidizing shipping infrastructure optimization for centralized manufacturing and global distribution. 10:20 < fenn> good 10:21 < apotheon> It's a tremendous hidden subsidy for public corporations that imposes costs on the entire economy. 10:21 < fenn> i'm not sure if that's really true, but i'd support it 10:21 < fenn> when siting a factory you go where there is infrastructure already 10:22 < fenn> i don't know why you think putting something on a train or boat would be expensive without government subsidy 10:22 < apotheon> This skews manufacturing innovations toward imposing costs on everybody, rather than reducing costs. 10:24 < apotheon> You're aware that trains require a lot of infrastructure maintenance and expansion, plus energy (and energy infrastructure, and so on), right? 10:24 < fenn> in my opinion, they don't spend enough on infrastructre. see above discussion about soup tubes 10:24 < apotheon> You must be trolling. 10:24 < apotheon> Soup tubes are not a good idea. 10:25 < fenn> the fact that a large factory can send a large can of soup down a large tube, in no way affects your ability to send a small can of soup to a local distribution center to be packaged into a large shipping container and sent down a large tube 10:25 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-94-112-205-34.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:26 < fenn> ... and unpacked on the other side, sent to someone else's house 10:27 < fenn> asking your girlfriend for investment in your startup is a bad idea. soup tubes are a great idea 10:27 < L29Ah> should i get an army to force people to install soup tubes to their homes for their own future benefit of cheap soup delivery? 10:27 < fenn> L29Ah: depends, are they refusing to let tubes cross their property and generally getting in the way? 10:27 < L29Ah> sure some of them are 10:28 < fenn> then yeah, fuck those people 10:28 < docl> with the right catalysts you can make your soup from methane... now natgas pipelines are soup tubes :) 10:29 < apotheon> Great. 10:29 < L29Ah> fenn: what about curry tubes? 10:29 < apotheon> I was talking about the future, and fenn was talking about the plot of Brazil. 10:29 < docl> methanotrophic microbes -> shrimp food is a thing already. you could totally have a system that makes shrimp soup with current tech 10:30 < fenn> oh sure, like other good ideas haven't been featured in tragically dystopian science fiction 10:30 < fenn> docl: yes that's a great idea as well 10:30 < fenn> i think you could probably make some tasty microbes directly too 10:31 < lsneff> fenn: I think you misunderstood soup tubes. The idea wasn't to send cans of soup down the tube. 10:32 < fenn> apotheon: i'm currently watching a test of an incredibly dorky looking shiny steel rocket with fins, straight out of hokey science fiction movies 10:34 < docl> I'd worry about bacterial growth in literal soup tubes :/ 10:34 < apotheon> docl: Yeah, that's the first of *many* problems that come to mind. 10:41 < lsneff> In *The Diamond Age*, feedstock for the matter compilers was distributed in things akin to tubes. 10:41 < lsneff> Though, I think they were more of molecular conveyer belts. 10:42 < apotheon> Yeah, but inert substances provided as feedstock imply some very different logistical requirements than spoiling-prone prepared foods. 10:43 < lsneff> Certainly 10:43 < apotheon> Even water is much easier to transport that way without significant degradation of quality. 10:44 < apotheon> (assuming some up-front quality degradation as a trade-off with further degradation) 10:44 < lsneff> Somehow, it sent ice as well. 10:44 < lsneff> Anyhow, just fiction 10:44 < apotheon> That seems like magic, and I don't recall that part off the top of my head. 10:44 < apotheon> I read the book twice, but that was a long time ago. 10:44 < lsneff> The matter compilers are magic as well haha 10:44 < lsneff> I never got all the way though, maybe 70% 10:45 < apotheon> It's a little easier to imagine, in broad strokes, how that might work. 10:45 < apotheon> I quite intensely enjoyed that book, by the way. 10:45 < apotheon> In my opinion, it's one of NS's best. 10:45 < apotheon> along with Anathem and Cryptonomicon, at least. 10:45 < apotheon> s/.$// 10:46 < apotheon> I kinda place Snow Crash at the end of the list of his "best". 10:46 < fenn> they also had pipes full of high pressure coolant (distilled water) and electrical power 10:46 < fenn> it's a book series 10:47 < apotheon> For distilled water, we'd need a whole new infrastructure for distribution. 10:47 < fenn> yeah this is why we need to murder people who block the installation of soup tubes 10:47 < lsneff> Probably easy enough to distill water at the speed of flow when you have nanotech 10:47 < apotheon> In current infrastructure, distilled water will no longer have the quality of being distilled upon delivery, having acquired a bunch of crap from the infrastructure itself. 10:47 < lsneff> It's a series? 10:48 < apotheon> I don't know what series fenn means. I've given up trying to figure out what fenn means seriously. 10:48 < fenn> starting with the baroque cycle (i've been led to believe, although i haven't read it) then cryptonomicon, snow crash, the diamond age 10:49 < apotheon> I don't recall Snow Crash or Diamond Age having any series connection to the others. 10:49 < lsneff> I've read snow crash and I don't think there's a connection between that and diamond age 10:49 < apotheon> same here 10:49 -!- thahxa_ [~thahxa@lnsm1-toronto10-142-116-155-169.internet.virginmobile.ca] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:49 < apotheon> Baroque Cycle is the past of Cryptonomicon, though. 10:49 < fenn> The short story "Jipi and the Paranoid Chip" takes place some time after the events of Cryptonomicon. 10:50 < fenn> Stephenson's 2019 novel, Fall; or, Dodge in Hell, is promoted as a sequel to Reamde (2011), but as the story unfolds, it is revealed that Fall, Reamde, Cryptonomicon and The Baroque Cycle are all set in the same fictional universe, 10:50 < lsneff> Huh, I should read more of his books 10:51 < apotheon> I found the transition from one of the early sub-volumes of BC to the next uncomfortably jarring. I think it did something like kill off the most likable character from the previous book *between books*. 10:51 < lsneff> I read Fall or Dodge in Hell and started feeling like I was slogging through a snow drift partway through 10:51 < apotheon> That was a long time ago, too, so I don't recall the details. 10:51 < fenn> in "snow crash" it's told how the rise of untaxable cryptocurrencies (the plot of the second half of cryptonomicon) is what led to the fall of the federal government and rise of the corporate hodgepodge, which i take to mean it's a continuation of the same narrative 10:52 < apotheon> I haven't read Fall (yet). 10:52 -!- thahxa [~thahxa@lnsm1-torontoxn-142-116-155-169.internet.virginmobile.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:52 < fenn> i get them all mixed up. haven't read fall, dodge, reamde, or seveneves yet 10:52 < apotheon> Reamde didn't enthuse me enough to rush out and read a sequel. 10:53 < apotheon> Seveneves is full of interesting stuff, but the story structure is a mess, and it's a bit hard to read. 10:53 < lsneff> Oo, I really liked seveneves at the time, forgot it was by the same person 10:53 < apotheon> It's also lacking much of NS's trademark humor. 10:53 < lsneff> It's a great world building exercise, not a great story 10:53 < apotheon> right 10:54 < apotheon> That, at least, is loads better than William Gibson's last novel, which is't a story at all. 10:54 < apotheon> s/is't/isn't/ 10:54 -!- ottavio [~m0ttv@unaffiliated/m0ttv] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:55 < apotheon> The supposed protagonists aren't even protagonists. One is a McGuffin, and the other is a framing device and copying machine for information. 10:55 < apotheon> The main plot happens off-page. 10:55 < apotheon> (including the climax) 10:55 < apotheon> Don't read Agency. It's a disaster. 10:56 -!- ottavio [~m0ttv@unaffiliated/m0ttv] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:57 < ottavio> because you're essentially taking it from bank accounts > Banks can create "deposits" (loans) out of thin air without actually taking it from bank accounts. 10:58 < ottavio> I mean from their customers' accounts. 10:59 < fenn> ottavio: printing new money devalues existing money, ergo people who have large amounts of cash are harmed proportionally more 10:59 < fenn> most cash is stored in bank accounts 11:00 < fenn> well.. currency 11:00 < fenn> not sure what the technical term is 11:00 < lsneff> apotheon: read void star? 11:00 < fenn> and also it does NOT devalue stocks, gold, machinery, real estate, food, etc 11:00 < kanzure> https://github.com/google/git-appraise 11:01 < fenn> is it the newspeak politically correct "git-blame" 11:02 < ottavio> fenn: there was a UK project called Positive Money that explained exactly how money creation out of thin air works. The founder was bought out by the BoE. 11:02 < fenn> because blaming people hurts their feelings 11:02 < kanzure> fenn: something about code review 11:03 < apotheon> People with large amounts of cash are "harmed proportionally more" only by second-order effects; they're helped more by first-order effects, because they get the new money first. Furthermore, that's a purely quantitative harm. Qualitatively, the people harmed most are those with the least money, because those with the most money don't lose anything in day-to-day purchasing power, but those with 11:03 < apotheon> the least money might go go from being able to afford lunch to not being able to afford it with only a tiny incremental loss of per-unit value. 11:03 < lsneff> That'd pretty cool 11:03 < apotheon> lsneff: No, I haven't read that. 11:03 < ottavio> Define cash. Is it M1, M2 or M3? 11:04 < fenn> fiat currency 11:04 < fenn> apotheon: don't confuse utility with value 11:04 < ottavio> It's all fiat given it's not tied to gold anymore since Nixon. 11:05 < apotheon> ottavio: Are you asking me or fenn? 11:05 < ottavio> apotheon: you 11:05 < apotheon> fenn: Don't confuse actual value with abstractions over price. 11:05 < fenn> ottavio that's not true. in some countries Tide laundry soap is used as currency, and in others they use gold, and so on 11:06 < apotheon> ottavio: I was using "cash" in an almost direct quote from fenn so you should nail down which M-type fenn means. 11:06 < apotheon> "people who have large amounts of cash" -> "People with large amounts of cash" 11:06 < apotheon> It was basically just an implicit s/who have/with/ operation. 11:06 < ottavio> In Germany, there are Tauschnetze/Tauschringen, where they still do barter. I've been there, seen that and it works, but it's marginal economy. 11:10 < apotheon> lsneff: Why did you ask whether I had read Void Star? 11:11 < apotheon> Reading some review quotes makes me think I should give it a read. 11:12 < apotheon> Even the negative review quotes I've seen so far reveal some potentially intriguing subject matter. 11:12 < lsneff> I was merely curious 11:13 < lsneff> It's a modern take on neuromancer 11:14 < docl> people with a lot of debt are helped by inflation, but people getting paid minimum wage are hurt more 11:15 < apotheon> lsneff: Thanks for the mention. It's going on my reading list for this year now. 11:16 < apotheon> docl: correct 11:16 < docl> basically any sticky price provider including low wage or grocery store will make less if it's less value per unit currency 11:17 < apotheon> . . . and if there's a UBI, UBI is the new minimum wage, with the added bonus of UBI also being a major driver of inflation. 11:17 < docl> "higher minimum wage hurts people by causing inflation" doesn't make sense to me though 11:18 < apotheon> Higher minimum wage doesn't cause monetary inflation, but it does cause increased business overhead up to the point where the business' overhead elasticity starts to trail off, then people lose jobs. 11:18 < apotheon> . . . and prices go up. 11:18 < docl> given we already have progressive taxes, I don't get that criticism of UBI. just raise the taxes on the rich to balance it out and you get no new net money 11:19 < apotheon> Prices don't go up as much as the increase in minimum wage, generally, because some of that extra overhead is ablated away in other ways, like lower quality product standards, fewer employees, less generous benefits, and so on. 11:19 < apotheon> The rich control politics. Government is in some respects a single point of access for socioeconomic exploits, but only for those with the resources to develop and deploy exploits. 11:21 < apotheon> Post-industrial governments as we know them have to deal with levels of complexity that are only tractable by abstraction, too, which results in intensively quantitative criteria for policy, which in turn results in a more exploitable system (for those with the resources to navigate the complexity). 11:22 < apotheon> e.g. the S&P 500 dropping is "bad", so rich people get help propping up the S&P 500 11:26 < thahxa_> iirc the minimum wage going up is basically perfectly fine up to a point at which point theres issues in supply in the labor market 11:26 < thahxa_> imo the biggest strength of ubi is its ability to jack up the economy 11:27 < thahxa_> the rich literally contribute less to the economy per dollar because they spend less of it 11:27 < thahxa_> the poorer you are the more velocity your money goes 11:31 < apotheon> Optimizing uncritically for velocity results in what happened with the "stimulus" money going to USians in general: you get 600 USD, and people spend it on new TVs they don't need because it doesn't provide a meaningful long-term store of value for people with low income, so it hasn't any significant value for things like paying for shelter and food. 11:32 < apotheon> The people who could benefit from that paltry sum can't reasonably get it, because they're too poor for access to the standard financial infrastructure used to distribute it. 11:34 < apotheon> A lot of government policy is driven by people who don't see the (sometimes subtler, but) same kinds of logistical problems as soup tubes. 11:34 < thahxa_> well wouldn't one of the core objectives of ubi be specifically distributing the money to the people who /do/ need it? 11:34 < apotheon> In theory, sure. 11:34 < apotheon> Objectives and outcomes are not identical. 11:34 -!- thahxa_ is now known as thahxa 11:34 < apotheon> In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. 11:35 < thahxa> imo whats more important is the incentives that whatever system you produce create 11:35 < apotheon> Yeah, incentive modification is important. 11:36 < thahxa> ye like the current economic structure incentivizes alot of smart people to just go into wall street hedge funds 11:36 < apotheon> The legal institutions of public corporations are the generators of those hedge fun incentives. 11:37 < apotheon> s/fun/fund/ 11:37 < thahxa> yea ofc but its still something to watch out for 11:39 < apotheon> If we did away with the legal entity of the public corporation, we'd eliminate a lot of problems in the economy -- *and* in politics itself, because sufficiently advanced public corporations have significant power of regulatory capture. 11:39 < apotheon> Eliminate, or mitigate. 11:40 < thahxa> hm i'm not sure -- rich people will find one way or another to do regulatory capture, and i think the abstraction level given by a corporation is important 11:40 < thahxa> you'd need to do alot of economic restructuring to get to that goal 11:41 < apotheon> Of course, we can't really get rid of them now. It's too late to do it legislatively. They already exist, and already have enough political power to prevent their dissolvement in law. 11:41 < apotheon> You'd need to do a lot of economic restructuring to substantively change things anyway. 11:42 < fenn> i'm going to take the radical stance that $600 matters a lot more to a poor person than a rich person 11:42 < apotheon> That's not a radical stance. 11:42 < fenn> nobody'd going to criticize me? 11:42 < apotheon> The rich person is only more likely to save rather than spend the 600 USD because the rich person *doesn't even really notice that small sum*. 11:42 < thahxa> i assumed "radical" was the sarcastic part of the sentence 11:43 < apotheon> . . . so it doesn't change spending behavior. 11:43 < apotheon> 600 USD matters enough to many lower economic class people for them to spend it for a good time, but not enough to ensure continued lifestyle security, in many cases. 11:44 < fenn> but i said an obviously true thing about economics! 11:44 < fenn> come at me bro 11:44 < apotheon> There's also the problem that poor people have more of a sense of impermanence that results in spending rather than saving for a rainy day -- because every day is a rainy day. 11:45 < apotheon> . . . so yeah, it matters to them, but it's not broadly beneficial. 11:45 < fenn> it gets money to people who currently have no way to get more 11:45 < apotheon> It just ends up in the hands of the corporations selling TVs. 11:47 < fenn> verifying that someone "deserves" money is error prone and also rather expensive 11:47 < fenn> or whatever the hell the welfare view is supposed to be, i can't even remember 11:47 < apotheon> I think it's generally phrased as "need". 11:48 < fenn> califonia officially provides advice on how to "spend down assets" so you meet the "need" criteria for medicare 11:48 < fenn> so if you're poor, you're not allowed to have both money and healthcare 11:48 < apotheon> "With 2000 USD, you can pay rent. With 200 USD, you can start off a new addiction with a bang. Here's your 200 USD, because you're in need." 11:48 < fenn> you have to blow it on useless shit like TVs and clothing, which don't count toward your wealth per the criteria 11:50 < fenn> or $200 buys a month of groceries 11:50 < docl> often it goes to paying down high interest credit cards 11:51 < docl> which mostly are a poor people thing since rich people can afford to pay it off every month 11:52 < kanzure> let's move on to the part where we agree the only optimal society is one organized by john von neumann 11:52 < fenn> i'm sure he could do better 11:53 < fenn> gentlemen. we can rebuild him. we have the technology. 11:53 < docl> do we have his dna on file? 11:53 < kanzure> i mean technically he's stored in a grave somewhere... we can just go get his genome... 11:53 < kanzure> well we'd just have to do a little bit of grave robbing 11:53 < kanzure> but just a tiny amount of it 11:53 < apotheon> kanzure: I'm more interested in Alonzo Church and his ideas for how to design an optimal society. 11:54 < apotheon> kanzure: . . . preferably with help from Claude Shannon, or at least Auguste Kerckhoffs. 11:54 < apotheon> Claude Shannon, now that I think about it, is probably the most critical part of this dream team. 11:55 < fenn> why? 11:55 < apotheon> He understands the first principle of designing a resilient system, and expressed it as Shannon's Maxim. 11:56 < apotheon> (referring to Claude Shannon) 11:56 < apotheon> His phrasing was "The enemy knows the system." 11:57 < apotheon> Pretty much every political "solution" I see lacks basic awareness of this principle. 11:57 < thahxa> well its really 2 things happening at once 11:57 < thahxa> the first is the collective action problem 11:57 < docl> I sorta wonder if those guys are just what adhd looks like without so much video game / movie / social media technology 11:57 < thahxa> actually i dont know the second 11:58 < thahxa> most political systems are like 95% "here is my solution to the collective action problem" 11:58 < thahxa> but yea its like a game-theory sorta thing 12:00 < thahxa> apotheon: i read somewhere that basically "utopias are a dime a dozen" (ie. if any of them truly worked we wouldn't be where we are now) and that no political plan survives contact with the enemy (or more rather, actual real live people) 12:01 < apotheon> People focus on intended results first and, if they have ideological differences with the people pushing the solution, usually only a second-order consequence or two. 12:01 < kanzure> increasingly off-topic for this channel. 12:01 < kanzure> build things. get stuff done. 12:01 < apotheon> A lot of the damage is in higher-order levels of indirection due to fun shit like the previously alluded-to incentive perversions. 12:01 < apotheon> kanzure: good point 12:02 < apotheon> like "cypherpunks write code" 12:02 < kanzure> the problem with "cypherpunks write code" is that they didn't 12:02 < apotheon> Don't sit around wishing for government to solve your problems. Build things that solve your problems. 12:02 < apotheon> kanzure: Yeah, just like how people trying to vote the world better aren't really affecting things. 12:02 < kanzure> the slogan was an attempt to get the community to stop spending all their energy writing beautiful emails 12:03 < kanzure> as far as i know, it failed, and only a few people of the group ever actually produced code (like the remailers/mixman/pgp stuff) 12:03 * fenn mumbles something about incentives 12:03 < apotheon> I think there was probably a lot more code than is publicly recognizable, but it still wasn't nearly enough. 12:03 < kanzure> huh? 12:04 < apotheon> kanzure: Was that to me or fenn? 12:05 < fenn> cypherpunks were incentivized more to write emails than they were incentivized to write code 12:06 < fenn> it takes a really weird mutant human to enjoy poking at an automaton more than interacting socially 12:10 < thahxa> to be fair i think the sentiment applies to this community too 12:10 < thahxa> although i guess we have the excuse that bio is more expensive 12:10 < kanzure> speak for yourself 12:10 < kanzure> https://www.technologyreview.com/s/612838/the-transhumanist-diy-designer-baby-funded-with-bitcoin/ 12:17 < docl> wrt utopias: "you oppose soup tubes? what is your problem with curing world hunger?" 12:19 < docl> but still, methane->food is viable and methane tubes are real so there's an analogous situation with many utopias: possible with the right mods 12:19 * L29Ah dunks docl in a huge pot of protoplasm 12:22 < docl> https://www.aquaculturenorthamerica.com/feedkind-to-hit-market-in-2019-1086/ 12:24 < thahxa> hm interesting 12:30 < apotheon> docl: Methane is much more easily tube-distributed in a useful way. 12:30 < apotheon> I wonder whether the scent markers in our gas lines would cause problems for food production from methane. 12:30 < apotheon> I have no idea how filterable that is. 12:31 < apotheon> . . . or how I ended up writing such a sloppy sentence. 12:31 < docl> https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Ethanethiol 12:32 < docl> C2H6S or C2H5SH 12:32 < docl> bigger molecule, so filtering shouldn't be that hard 12:33 < apotheon> cool 12:35 < docl> or you could break it down, maybe with an oxidizer like h2o2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanethiol#Reactions 12:43 < docl> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqyZ9bFl_qg 12:43 < saxo> Nanofactory Animation - YouTube 12:44 < docl> appears to use ethane as the feedstock 12:45 < docl> but that's for diamond nanotech. a bit advanced. no reason bioreactors can't run on methane or ethane though. 12:47 < lsneff> that animation is pretty laughable 12:48 < docl> I kind of wonder if it underestimates the stickiness of atoms IRL 12:51 < lsneff> yes, of course it does, but tooltips for placing and abstracting atoms (C, H, Ge) have already been designed and simulated. A bigger issue–that isn't as clear in the popular literature–is the tendency of small atomic structures to redistribute themselves to minimize energy. 12:53 < docl> yeah currently my default idea is that we'll be using solution chemistry for a long while. but eutactic environment (cold / high vacuum) pick and place stuff is a fascinating possibility 12:54 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:649c:c948:b6b7:ce08] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:56 < docl> lsneff: any points in the video that stand out as particularly ludicrous on that basis? 12:56 < lsneff> the part where the machine isn't made out of atoms 12:57 < docl> I think it's supposed to be diamond 12:58 < kanzure> https://www.polygon.com/2017/5/30/15714850/twitch-plays-stock-market 12:58 < kanzure> oh no i linked to polygon, forgive me 13:00 < docl> so the idea is the atoms of the machine are already at a very low energy state 13:04 < lsneff> no, the molecular assembler isn't atoms. They should have at least attempted to design some of the machines atomistically. 13:04 < lsneff> Yeah, it might work very cold 13:04 < lsneff> Very long way off 13:06 < docl> if it works very cold that's something at least. liquid helium isn't that expensive 13:07 < docl> plus APM lets you design cryocoolers that e.g. rapidly cycle helium through pressure/expansion 13:08 < lsneff> there's some guy in the molecular machines facebook group who claims to be from the imm pursuing some direct-to-afm idea, but it doesn't look particular promising. 13:10 < docl> spiroligomer is probably a better bet, solution chemistry is easier/better understood. get the right shape of molecule and you can have whatever catalyst you want... hard part is determining what steps in what order to get the given catalyst 13:13 < docl> same is true of proteins of course, but folding is hard to simulate 13:17 -!- ottavio [~m0ttv@unaffiliated/m0ttv] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:17 < lsneff> look, here's where I am with this right now: I think, that in a few years, the state of the art will have reached the point where a neuralink-like company could, over a decade or so, come up with basic positionally-assembled nanotech. 13:19 < fenn> is that company canadian banknote 13:19 < lsneff> having looked into that more, I'd say no, but I don't have a concrete basis for that decision 13:20 -!- Urchin[emacs] [~user@unaffiliated/urchin] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:20 -!- Urchin[emacs]` [~user@unaffiliated/urchin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:21 -!- Urchin[emacs]` is now known as Urchin[emacs] 13:22 < lsneff> or, are you being facetious, I can't tell 13:33 < fenn> no 13:33 < fenn> it's the first serious sounding attempt i had heard in a decade 13:33 < fenn> i haven't looked into it really 13:34 < lsneff> well, there's nothing public really to look into 13:34 < fenn> job postings? relevant people on linkedin 13:36 < lsneff> Maybe I'll write up what I've been able to find, at some point 13:36 < lsneff> Talked to a recruiter for them a while back 13:36 < fenn> sometimes legal stuff like court cases 13:37 < fenn> there can be a lot of juicy details in a single court case 13:37 < lsneff> patents are where most of the info is 13:38 < fenn> depends on who's writing the patent 13:38 < lsneff> no, in this case, patents tell most of the story 13:38 < lsneff> I will write up a short doc later 13:43 < lsneff> https://patents.google.com/?assignee=CBN+Nano+Technologies%2c+Inc.,Cbn+Nano+Tech+Inc,Nanofactory+Cbn+Inc. 13:43 -!- yonkunas [uid403824@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eltgwrslmemdjiml] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 13:44 < docl> just to note, durable molecules that can be constructed by stepwise process (spiroligomers, peptoids) are adequate for data storage including crypto keys for banknotes. 13:44 < docl> assuming you can read them ok (and I think you can) 13:45 < docl> so if anyone shows up with a money shovel, consider pointing them at schafmeister 13:49 < lsneff> indeed. 13:49 < lsneff> i think that schafmeister's priorities are wrong in certain ways, but he's certainly at the state of the art in this area 13:58 -!- join_cordblood [~join_cord@135-23-248-163.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:59 < docl> yeah, compiler design should be outsourced to someone who specializes in that rather than competing against his lab work. although optimizing the speed of the code is important. 14:01 < lsneff> it took the guy like 6 or 7 years to write a lisp runtime. He could be 6 or 7 years further ahead right now if he just bit the bullet and used python 14:01 < lsneff> or js or something 14:02 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e0a:994:7ed0:b4ab:dbf0:3788:4ca9] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:02 < docl> not sure if that's the case, but I can see the argument 14:04 < docl> not like he hasn't been doing work in the mean time, but there's got to be a time tradeoff involved 14:05 < lsneff> that's true 14:11 < lsneff> At least a year or two, I'd think 14:11 < lsneff> He did express misgivings about the whole thing to me 14:43 < apotheon> Maybe he did the compiler work in his off-time because it was educational and fun as well as useful. 14:43 < apotheon> (I came into this late, and I'm not sure I know enough details to have made a reasonable comment.) 14:47 < lsneff> That's certainly possible. I wasn't being fair in my appraisal 14:48 < apotheon> We seem to lack some details, so questions and potential misunderstandings about what happened are natural. 14:49 < apotheon> kinda like science 14:49 < apotheon> We don't really know what works until it blows up in our faces in some informative ways. 15:11 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-94-112-205-34.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:14 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e0a:994:7ed0:b4ab:dbf0:3788:4ca9] has quit [] 15:25 -!- join_cordblood [~join_cord@135-23-248-163.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:31 -!- filipepe_ [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bbdfdbnbiqemqqtm] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:46 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-94-112-205-34.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:49 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-94-112-205-34.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:57 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-94-112-205-34.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:58 -!- spaceangel_ [~spaceange@ip-94-112-205-34.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:58 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-94-112-205-34.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:01 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-94-112-205-34.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01 -!- spaceangel_ [~spaceange@ip-94-112-205-34.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-94-112-205-34.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:02 -!- spaceangel_ [~spaceange@ip-94-112-205-34.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:02 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-94-112-205-34.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:32 < lsneff> I wonder how popular lua would be if indexes started at 0. 16:32 -!- spaceangel_ [~spaceange@ip-94-112-205-34.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:34 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-94-112-205-34.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:36 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-94-112-205-34.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:42 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-94-112-205-34.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:46 < fenn> enchanced 16:46 < fenn> .tw 1357296455615197184 16:46 < saxo> Infosec fail thread: // So, in the last couple of weeks I've been looking into a product we were thinking of offering to our customers. // This time, we were looking into the FootfallCam 3D plus. A counter system to measure how many people are in a building. // 1/n https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EtYVut4XcAUtCnJ.jpg (@OverSoftNL) 16:55 -!- thahxa [~thahxa@lnsm1-toronto10-142-116-155-169.internet.virginmobile.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:06 -!- sanehatter [~sanehatte@141.98.255.148] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:06 -!- thahxa [~thahxa@lnsm1-toronto10-142-116-155-169.internet.virginmobile.ca] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:08 < docl> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbdXeRBbgDM 17:08 < saxo> 2018 LLVM Developers’ Meeting: C. Schafmeister “Lessons Learned Implementing Common Lisp with LLVM” - YouTube 17:08 < docl> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X69_42Mj-g 17:08 < saxo> Clasp: Common Lisp using LLVM and C++ for Molecular Metaprogramming - YouTube 17:09 < docl> apotheon: in case you're interested, those two talks might be helpful 17:09 < apotheon> cool 17:09 < apotheon> How long are they? 17:10 < apotheon> Are these hour-long presentations? 17:10 < docl> one is 1hr, the other 1/2hr 17:11 < apotheon> thanks 17:11 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yvdhouahjkrokwtr] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 17:26 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-94-112-205-34.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:28 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-94-112-205-34.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:30 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-94-112-205-34.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:50 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:649c:c948:b6b7:ce08] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:00 -!- filipepe_ [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bbdfdbnbiqemqqtm] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 18:08 -!- filipepe_ [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sgcmxkizewomgibd] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:19 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b79:29e:ecd2:bbd0:8cfd] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:53 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-113-82-16.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:04 < lsneff> Fingers crossed for tomorrow, should hear back from two companies 19:22 -!- Codaraxis__ [Codaraxis@gateway/vpn/mullvad/codaraxis] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:50 -!- thahxa_ [~thahxa@lnsm1-torontoxn-142-116-155-169.internet.virginmobile.ca] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:55 -!- jrayhawk_ is now known as jrayhawk 21:02 -!- sanehatter [~sanehatte@141.98.255.148] has quit [Quit: -] 21:02 -!- Codaraxis_ [Codaraxis@gateway/vpn/mullvad/codaraxis] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:06 -!- Codaraxis__ [Codaraxis@gateway/vpn/mullvad/codaraxis] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:11 -!- thahxa_ [~thahxa@lnsm1-torontoxn-142-116-155-169.internet.virginmobile.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:30 -!- filipepe_ [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sgcmxkizewomgibd] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] --- Log closed Fri Feb 05 00:00:36 2021