--- Log opened Sat Feb 06 00:00:37 2021
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13:43 < nmz787> this is a really cool machine, if only it was so expensive for rare use cases https://www.amazon.com/Remover-Machine-Portable-Through-Setting/dp/B01LMYQEX4
13:43 < nmz787> .title
13:43 < saxo> No title found
13:43 < nmz787> .title https://www.amazon.com/Remover-Machine-Portable-Through-Setting/dp/B01LMYQEX4
13:43 < saxo> No title found
13:52 < fenn> EDM tap remover $1400
13:52 < fenn> seems a bit much tbh
13:55 < fenn> sinking an allen key into the broken tap is a cute idea
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15:20 < kanzure> hello ProxyPass my old friend
15:23 < kanzure> "In vivo base editing rescues Hutchinson–Gilford progeria syndrome in mice" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-03086-7
16:04 < kanzure> "An epigenetic clock to estimate the age of living beluga whales" https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eva.13195
16:04 < kanzure> "... samples collected with a biopsy dart from living whales between 2016 and 2018. Age estimates ranged from 11 to 27 years"
16:06 < fenn> that's not very much
16:07 < fenn> the oldest recorded blue whale was estimated to have a lifespan of 110 years
16:09 < fenn> The Beluga whale has an average lifespan of 40 – 60 years.
16:09 < fenn> The Bowhead whale has an average lifespan of 100 – 200 years.
16:10 < apotheon> The Bowhead also probably has a very slow heartbeat.
16:10 < apotheon> not as slow as a tree's circulatory activity
16:11 < fenn> is there any merit to this heartbeat count determines lifespan myth?
16:11 < apotheon> probably not
16:12 < apotheon> It's more likely to be merely correlative.
16:12 < apotheon> (and not as correlative as a cursory survey might suggest, either)
16:13 < kanzure> real answers only
16:13 < apotheon> I'd like to see someone's conclusions after actual research about correlative factors between heart rate and lifespan, though.
16:14 < apotheon> Tortoises are famously long-lived -- at least some of them -- and they likely have very slow heartbeats, too.
16:14 < fenn> "likely:
16:14 < fenn> but that's exactly what i was asking about
16:14 < apotheon> Then again, I think (some?) mice are kinda biologically immortal, other than the whole thing about eventually being crushed by their own on-growing body weight.
16:15 < kanzure> what is your expertise and background
16:15 < apotheon> fenn: I think tortoises have slow heartbeats, but I don't recall for sure.
16:15 < L29Ah> which mice are biologically immortal?
16:15 < apotheon> don't recall
16:15 < apotheon> I have old, dusty factoids floating around in my head.  That's all.
16:15 < kanzure> what is your expertise and background?
16:15 < L29Ah> i never heard of a mouse who had an exoskeleton implanted to sustain its living
16:15 < apotheon> kanzure: I read a lot.
16:16 < apotheon> L29Ah: It'd require internal changes, not merely external.
16:16 < apotheon> Eventually, the heart would give out.
16:16 < L29Ah> so the problem is not about getting crushed by their own weight
16:16 < fenn> "a giant (Galapagos) tortoise with a heart rate of 6 b.p.m. and a life expectancy of 177 years will produce 5.6×10 8 beats per lifetime, 17 which is similar to the figure obtained for a rat (6.3×10 8) with a heart rate of 240 b.p.m. and a life expectancy of about 5 years. Heart rate controls the body's metabolic activity"
16:16 < apotheon> L29Ah: Okay, that was incautious phrasing.
16:17 < L29Ah> > Heart rate controls the body's metabolic activity
16:17 < L29Ah> nah, body's metabolic activity controls heart rate
16:17 < apotheon> Yeah, that's my thought.
16:17 < fenn> right
16:17 < apotheon> It'd be more like "heart rate is a strong correlator with metabolic activity".
16:18 < apotheon> Actually, basic knowledge of how exercise affects the human body should indicate the likely causal relationship between heart rate and metabolic activity.
16:18 < apotheon> hmm
16:18 < apotheon> Maybe I should look up some of the science on this now.
16:18 < apotheon> I'm curious.
16:19 < fenn> that paper continues: "By adjusting its rate, the heart can control both the temperature and the energy requirements of the whole body. The heart is able to send ‘messages’ and ‘talk’ to most cells of the body through the circulatory system, mainly with the help of the endothelium. The ‘language’ chosen by the heart could be the ‘heart rate,’ via the intensity and frequency of
16:19 < kanzure> it's hard to interpret your expertise because you don't qualify your statements with anything
16:19 < fenn> shear stress so exerting an important regulatory role on endothelial function and vascular tone."
16:20 < apotheon> kanzure: What do you mean by "qualify"?
16:20 < apotheon> "likely" is a qualification of a statement
16:20 < apotheon> (for instance)
16:20 < kanzure> you make a lot of strong statements about biology for someone who may not know anything about biology?
16:20 < apotheon> quote a strong statement, please
16:20 < kanzure> this whole conversation on heart beat?
16:20 < apotheon> . . .
16:21 < apotheon> 00:15 < apotheon> fenn: I think tortoises have slow heartbeats, but I don't recall for sure.
16:21 < apotheon> "I think" is not a strong statement about tortoises.
16:21 < kanzure> i get it, we've all read the theory before
16:21 < apotheon> It's a strong statement about what I think.
16:21 < fenn> "Coburn et al.20 tested this hypothesis experimentally by feeding mice with digoxin and reported that treated mice had a slower heart rate and lived significantly longer than control mice. However, because of various confounding factors, such as lower body weight in treated mice, it was impossible to establish a clear cause-and-effect relationship."
16:21 < kanzure> "strong statement about what i think" is a cop-out
16:21 < kanzure> please exercise greater intellectual caution, that is all.
16:22 < apotheon> "never say anything that is not 100% totally certain, because qualifying your certainty is not allowed"
16:22 < apotheon> That's what I see here.
16:22 < apotheon> Is that not the intended effect?
16:22 < L29Ah> does copping out has anything to do with police officers?
16:23 < apotheon> I'm not even sure at this point.
16:23 < fenn> i think the idea is "don't make up a bunch of BS if you can help it"
16:23 < kanzure> yep
16:23 < apotheon> I don't think kanzure is doing a very good job of clarifying the *actual* problem.
16:23 < apotheon> I suppose saying "I don't think" doesn't qualify as a qualification, though.
16:23 < kanzure> fenn: or, more specifically, repeat exitsing bullshit of course.
16:24 < fenn> eh, it's not easy to rigorously justify all statements with reliable sources
16:24 < kanzure> it's fine to say "hey i wonder if this thing is bunk"
16:24 < kanzure> which is what fenn did
16:24 < apotheon> I recall reading about things in places that did not seem like bullshit without having an exhaustively cross-checked catalog of sources and strong evidence of their veracity in my head.
16:25 < apotheon> I'm open to being corrected, but if you just don't want me to say things that aren't 100% certain or direct quotes-in-quotation-marks from scientific papers, I guess I can accomodate that preference.
16:25 < fenn> "in the general population, the risk of death from all causes, including cardiovascular disease, augments as resting heart rate increases"
16:25 < apotheon> I guess every time I recall something like that, I should start with "Hey I Wonder If This Is Bunk™:".
16:25 < kanzure> well, the idea is that you should use stronger epistmic caution or epistemology to rigorously understand why you know (or more importantly, do not know) something
16:26 < apotheon> If I only admit to thinking something is the case, I don't see why you think that doesn't include some epistemic caution.
16:26 < apotheon> To me, "I think" is not a statement that you can't change my mind very easily.
16:27 < apotheon> It's a statement of my estimated priors.
16:27 < L29Ah> fenn: yeah, and cardiovascular fitness is inversely correlated with resting heart rate
16:27 < apotheon> If you say "I think this thing is true" I don't tend to go around assuming that means you're claiming great expertise and are 100% certain.
16:27 < apotheon> In fact, I wouldn't be prone to thinking you're much more than 50% certain.
16:28 < L29Ah> so your heart becomes bigger and stronger as you go through HIIT, but the metabolism of the tissues served doesn't get any slower, in fact it grows on average as you force your meat working
16:28 < apotheon> Somehow, though, if I say "I think" you take that as a strong statement of certainty with citations held in reserve.
16:29 < apotheon> L29Ah: Does HIIT increase resting heart rate?
16:29 < fenn> there's some kind of mismatch in expectations here. if someone asks "is that really true?" and you answer "i think so" with less than 50% certainty, it's not really helping
16:30 < apotheon> I don't generally say "I think so" with less than 50% certainty, so I'm not sure what relevance you think that has to anything I said.
16:30 < L29Ah> apotheon: it decreases resting HR
16:30 < apotheon> L29Ah: That's interesting.  I wasn't aware of that.
16:30 < fenn> ok what's your certainty value for "probably" then
16:31 < fenn> (also people usually have unreasonably inflated certainty)
16:31 < apotheon> somewhere above 50%; how much above somewhat adjusted by the general level of certainty expected (as far as I see it) on the subject area in question
16:32 < fenn> what does subject area have to do with it?
16:32 < apotheon> It's pretty heuristic, but definitely above 50%.
16:33 < apotheon> On some subjects, where (for instance) it's perfectly reasonable to have 60% certainty, there's no pretty much no communicative point in applying "probably" to 55%.
16:34 < L29Ah> i wonder how many mutually incompatible standards exist on matching english words with probability ranges
16:34 < apotheon> On others, where common levels of certainty due to multivariable influences, lack of evidence, and so on normally suggest something like 10% certainty, 60% definitely feels like a good time to say "probably".
16:34 < L29Ah> s/match/defin/
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16:35 < apotheon> I'm unlikely to try to call someone out on "probably" if the likelihood is over 50%, though.
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16:35 < apotheon> "I think" doesn't necessarily imply "probably", though -- just that it seems like the front-runner for being a reasonable working assumption.
16:37 < apotheon> If you think something is 33% likely to be true, but each of a million other things take up the other 77% with individual <1% likelihoods, "I think" seems appropriate as a statement of a working assumption.
16:37 < L29Ah> .t https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33378138/
16:37 < saxo> Is exercise a senolytic medicine? A systematic review - PubMed
16:37 < apotheon> err
16:37 < apotheon> 67
16:37 < apotheon> typo
16:38 < apotheon> I guess Internet culture has just driven attention to qualifiers so far out of fashion that qualifiers are not considered qualifiers.
16:57 < kanzure> "On February 26, 2021 at 9:00 am EST (2 pm GMT / 3pm CET / 10 pm CST), join members of the International Commission on the Clinical Use of Human Germline Genome Editing for a 90 minute online discussion of the implications of this technology for genetic disease and disability communities"
16:57 < kanzure> oh sure, help the diseased
16:57 < kanzure> what about everyone else?
17:03 < L29Ah> the diseased bring the monies, do you?
17:03 < kanzure> i doubt it's about money, because these are the same bioethicists that complain about people buying these services in the first place
17:03 < L29Ah> also they are ethically more suitable as guinea pigs
17:04 < L29Ah> well, not really ethically, but the bioethics department is more lax
17:05 < L29Ah> as it doesn't have to do with broad public, and looks like a last chance of a decent life in the eyes of a layman, saving the implementors from the undesired kind of attention
17:07 < apotheon> I think the real problem is that it's only for *genetic* disease.
17:08 < L29Ah> most of diseases are genetic if you are good enough at genetics
17:08 < apotheon> . . . 'cause "disease", apart from acute physical trauma, is almost certainly how people will die "I Think™".
17:08 < apotheon> L29Ah: good point
17:08 < fenn> everybody is diseased, it's only a matter of time
17:08 < apotheon> kinda my point
17:10 < apotheon> to be specific: "everybody is diseased" is kinda my point
17:11 < apotheon> It may be debatable that "everybody is diseased, it's only a matter of time", though, because "a matter of time" might mean someone dies before that point.
17:11 < fenn> sooner or later you're going to develop a disease
17:11 < apotheon> (unless you consider death by acute physical trauma to be related to disease)
17:11 < apotheon> fenn: What if you're dead?
17:11 < fenn> then you don't exist
17:12 < apotheon> Can you get a disease if you're dead?
17:12 < fenn> no
17:12 < apotheon> see, again, "you're going to develop disease"
17:12 < apotheon> also, cite your sources, expertise, et cetera
17:12 < fenn> uh huh
17:12 < fenn> please add more sarcastic punctuation, it's really helping~
17:13 < apotheon> I haven't been in this channel long, but today is the first time I heard that making people cite sources and expertise for stuff like that is mandatory.
17:13 < apotheon> fenn: That wasn't sarcastic.  That was a literal quote of what you said.
17:13 < apotheon> That's why they're called quotation marks.
17:13 < fenn> -_-
17:13 < fenn> just stop it
17:14 < apotheon> shit, I don't have a source to cite for that off-hand
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22:35 < nmz787> apotheon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgIRaO2FmcU
22:39 < nmz787> fenn: yeah the EDM tap remover is a bit much for one or two jobs, but it is interesting that it exists, but yet for how useful it seems to be in specific no-other-good-way jobs, how cheap it probably is to build, that they aren't cheaper or have a little competition... I guess just because the sort of job it excels at is relatively rare
22:39 < nmz787> I wonder if any tool places rent them out
22:40 < nmz787> it seems like the kind of thing that would pay itself off pretty fast
23:31 < apotheon> What the hell was that video?
--- Log closed Sun Feb 07 00:00:38 2021