--- Log opened Mon Feb 08 00:00:23 2021
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04:56 < docl> lsneff: nanotech is freaking important. lots of glory to be had there. but if you want to be a star, you need to focus on a thing nobody else is doing... lots of subcategories of nano fit this profile
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04:59 < docl> that said I definitely relate to not being able to pick one thing to focus on. definitely easier to find a way to get paid to sling code.
05:03 < docl> am currently working for a retail giant. lets me get paid to grind C/C++ programming skill, but super boring and not something I will ever be famous for or make much of a difference for the world.
05:10 < TMA> docl: just for my own curiosity, how old are you? [I am trying to figure out whether I burned out sooner or later than is usual.]
05:11 < docl> 37
05:12 < docl> just got my associate's in comp sci a couple years ago
05:12 < apotheon> "grind $foo programming skill" seems familiar
05:13 < apotheon> (from some of my own employment life)
05:15 < docl> yep... I had a call center job for 9 years, but luckily was able to grind some SQL during that time and put in a bit of open source stuff otherwise it would be unlikely I'd have got this job without a bachelor's.
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05:32 < docl> .title https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microfluidics
05:32 < saxo> "Microfluidics refers to the behaviour, precise control, and manipulation of fluids that are geometrically constrained to a small scale (typically sub-millimeter) at which surface forces dominate volumetric forces." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microfluidics
05:33 < docl> this appears to be a productive field to study
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07:18 < docl> .title https://hackaday.com/2017/02/28/microfluidic-lego-bricks/
07:18 < saxo> Microfluidic LEGO Bricks | Hackaday
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09:34 < docl> .title https://www.xprize.org/prizes/elonmusk
09:34 < saxo> Carbon Removal At Gigaton Scale | XPRIZE Foundation
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10:41 < docl> hmm. inkjet printers are just consumer grade microfluidic distributors. not suitable for some reagents that can't handle atmospheric exposure, but I wonder if they are useful for spiroligomer synthesis
10:45 < docl> .wik Spiroligomer
10:45 < saxo> "Spiroligomers (also known as bis-peptides) are synthetic oligomers made by coupling pairs of bis-amino acids into a fused ring system." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiroligomer
10:45 < docl> "Spiroligomers are synthesized in a step-wise approach by adding a single bis-amino acid at each stage of the synthesis. This stepwise elongation allows for complete control of the stereochemistry, as any bis-amino acid can be incorporated to allow for elongation; or any mono-amino acid can be added to terminate a chain. This can be accomplished using either solution-phase or solid-phase reactions."
10:47 < docl> so maybe that means you can load up some cartridges with bis-amino acids and print them as a "color photo" to get tiny amounts of custom built spiroligomers? use multiple passes with different cartridge sets?
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12:30 < fenn> nobody is doing nanotech :(
12:36 < docl> schafmeister is
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12:55 < nmz787_> "no one" lol
12:56 < docl> Moheimani is also doing some APM stuff https://utdallas.edu/news/science-technology/2-4-million-grant-supports-research-to-improve-atomically-precise-manufacturing/
12:56 < nmz787_> I just got a project from design and debug through mass manufacturing for trillions of buddhist mantras for next-generation nanotech prayer wheels
12:57 < docl> oh wow
12:57 < nmz787_> https://www.norsam.com/products/buddhist-nano-film/
12:58 < docl> > Norsam provides custom mantras on nano film for prayer wheels and archival preservation and spiritual applications utilizing electron and ion beam technologies and state of the art duplication methods. Rolls of nano film can be supplied in any length and height. For instance, a 2,000 ft roll of nano film 5â€" high can hold approximately one trillion mantras.
12:59 < nmz787_> (I realize this is not the nanotech fenn is likely talking about... but it's definitely good learning for me to get to the "real" stuff)
13:03 < docl> spamming the gods with more efficient prayers, well I guess there are less accurate descriptions of nanotech out there
13:05 < superkuh> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Billion_Names_of_God
13:07 < docl> now I know where unsong got the idea
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14:34 < juri_> there needs to be more bioprinting. it's been a while since i saw anything interesting out of that.
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15:05 < fenn> when i say nanotech i mean the original intended meaning, not the fake "anything with dimensions measured in nanometers" crowd that jumped on the wagon and broke it
15:06 < fenn> reza moheimani is developing MEMS actuators for scanning probe tooltips, which, while highly relevant, is still not actually doing the thing itself
15:06 < fenn> first you get good, then you scale it up
15:07 < fenn> starting out by parallelizing something is backwards
15:07 < L29Ah> s/nanotech/complex diamondoids/?
15:07 < fenn> atomically precise manufacturing
15:08 < fenn> there COULD be a route through biotech, but i haven't seen anything beyond some amateurish DNA origami stuff
15:08 < fenn> most protein engineering is focused on the biological applications
15:08 < L29Ah> x-ray photolitography
15:09 < fenn> x-ray is far too broad a term
15:09 < fenn> i'm also not convinced that it would be atomically precise
15:10 < fenn> there's also the problem of making something useful. you can make a slab of atoms that's exactly 1000 atoms thick, but that's sort of missing the point
15:10 < L29Ah> it is not, as you have alignment problems, but it is probably the best bet at macroscale atomically precise manufacturing
15:10 < fenn> well whatever, this is rapidly going off into fake nanotech territory
15:10 < fenn> i'm talking about the vision in engines of creation, nanosystems, etc
15:18 < docl> spiroligomers are real molecular machines. not the same category as eutactic environment stuff. I was discussing this with lsneff here the other day
15:19 < docl> the machine parts have to be made of atoms, which is tricky because atoms tend to wriggle around to the lowest energy structure
15:20 < docl> so you need very low temperatures for rigid nanosystems to work
15:21 < docl> spiroligomers are related to proteins, but not really the same thing. proteins are floppy things designed to fold, which is hard to predict, and they have lots of single bonds which make them delicate by comparison
15:21 < fenn> spiroligomers are not floppy?
15:24 < docl> no, as I understand it they have double bonds so they are more stable than proteins
15:25 < fenn> so for making complex shapes you must insert a hinge unit at each corner?
15:26 < docl> drmeister says they are using spiroligomers as scaffolds with other molecules mounted on them as tools
15:26 < L29Ah> fenn: i wonder what do you personally want atomically precise manufacturing for
15:26 < fenn> go read the books
15:26 < docl> I should probably rewatch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbdXeRBbgDM
15:26 < fenn> .title
15:26 < saxo> 2018 LLVM Developers’ Meeting:  C. Schafmeister “Lessons Learned Implementing Common Lisp with LLVM” - YouTube
15:27 < L29Ah> mainly is it about feature size or about the chemical interaction capabilities
15:27 < fenn> neither really. it's about rates of material production and the economics of capital
15:28 < fenn> basically everything would become very inexpensive
15:28 < L29Ah> you get higher rates of production with macroscale techniques
15:28 < fenn> false
15:28 < L29Ah> as you have mechanics and thermodynamics at your side
15:28 < fenn> go read the books, i'm not going to argue
15:28 < docl> yeah that's something you can get with spiroligomers, as they can synthesize each other (being catalysts)
15:28 < L29Ah> "the" books?
15:30 < docl> if you have a chain of catalysts making each other, that's a class of self replicating tech
15:33 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/nanosystems.tar http://fennetic.net/irc/EnginesofCreation2_8803267.pdf http://molecularassembler.com
15:33 < fenn> where'd the zyvex thing go?
15:33 < fenn> also islandone and institute of molecular manufacturing
15:33 < fenn> the stupid internet broke again
15:35 < fenn> http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/
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15:38 < fenn> http://www.zyvex.com/nano/
15:38 < L29Ah> docl: generally with the current tech if you can make one molecule, you can make a shitload of them (in fact you make one molecule by making a shitload of them), so i don't really see the use cases, except probably for some really complex nanomachine that is hard to make but otherwise capable of self-assebling through catalysis, but that feature would probably constrain the machine a LOT, as you need
15:38 < L29Ah> to make really complex catalysts for reactions to be specific to your bigger intermediate chunks, not the source molecules
15:39  * L29Ah stares at ribosome.gif
15:40 < fenn> little known fact: ribosomes are primarily RNA and the active site is RNA, not protein
15:44 < docl> more catalysts make it possible to do more on a tabletop setup, so macro scale machines/factories that self replicate without hard to manage features like pressure tanks and furnaces are more likely to emerge. think 3d printers but they take rocks or natural gas or something as input
15:45 < docl> like, if you take a ton of dirt from your back yard there's a ton of assorted metals and oxygen right there. not much more energy binding them than a ton of CO2 from a third of a ton of coal.
15:45 < docl> what's missing? either processes -- furnaces, etc. -- or catalysts.
15:45 < L29Ah> more like a slurry of chemical feedstock: thermodynamics is not at your favor in case of rocks
15:46 < docl> it is if you have say, sunlight
15:46 < L29Ah> though there are photocatalyzers
15:46 < docl> exactly
15:47 < docl> and thermal processing is very unfriendly to small scale because of surface area to volume ratio
15:48 < fenn> nanosystems have the same problem with heat rejection, but you can build coolant distribution into it
15:48 < docl> but then you are still spending the energy
15:48 < fenn> you have to spend some energy no matter what
15:49 < fenn> at high production rates there will be a lot of energy dissipated in a small volume
15:49 < docl> sure, but tends to be a lot less if you operate at a lower temperature
15:49 < fenn> no, operating at a lower temperature is a requirement because atoms will jump around on their own and make a mess of things at higher temperatures
15:50 < fenn> the minimum energy dissipated is the same
15:50 < docl> that too. you likely can't run a nanosystem at high temperature.
15:51 < fenn> maybe you can build slightly more efficient tools because they're less massive and it takes less energy to accelerate the arm parts if you don't have to build them big and beefy to withstand thermal noise
15:51 < docl> whereas solution phase chemistry can handle room temperature
15:52 < fenn> you simply can't make the same structures with solution phase chemistry
15:52 < fenn> instead you have to constrain everything with patterns of covalent bonds
15:53 < fenn> no xenon atoms sitting on a surface spelling out "IBM"
15:53 < fenn> the xenon would just fly everywhere instantly
15:54 < docl> any room temperature system shares this property?
15:57 < fenn> i don't know, maybe the solution makes it worse somehow
15:57 < fenn> in addition to thermal noise there's randomness in what the workpiece is exposed to
15:58 < fenn> you could have a slightly more robust workpiece than some xenon atoms, that is able to withstand higher temperatures, but not being exposed to solvent
15:58 < fenn> or there's some equilibrium process involved that makes it so you never get to 100%
15:58 < fenn> the workpiece just keeps dissolving and re-depositing
15:59 < docl> you could use vacuum tech in tandem with solution phase nanotech. the structures won't poof if you evacuate and cool them. you might also use them to create diamond structures of arbitrary shapes, then assemble those with a pick and place system.
15:59 < fenn> so you're limited to reactions that are irreversible (which none are, truly 100% irreversible)
15:59 < fenn> yes i'm a fan of lego bricks
16:00 < fenn> assembling atoms one at a time with precise positioners seems like a waste if you can self assemble bricks of thousands of atoms that are just as good
16:01 < docl> yeah
16:01 < fenn> said bricks need not be rectangular paralellepipeds
16:01 < fenn> parallelepipeds*
16:02 < fenn> carbon nanotubes for example seem like a good building block
16:02 < fenn> or proteins, or maybe spiroligomers (though i haven't read very much about them)
16:03 < fenn> metal organic frameworks, nanoclusters, monolayer films
16:05 < fenn> you can weigh and sort solution grown nanocrystals
16:08 < fenn> with epitaxy the crystals will grow in predictable locations on a framework
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16:13 < fenn> L29Ah: another aspect of atomically precise manufacturing is that "god is in charge of quality control" - e.g. all carbon atoms are identical (nevermind isotopes for now) so the statistical properties of a system built from identical components are fundamentally different from a bulk system with continuously varying properties
16:14  * L29Ah summons his chunk of monocrystallic silicon to send this message to the irc channel
16:15 < L29Ah> also you somehow imply your production processes will be error-free
16:15 < fenn> when you have an error plugging together lego bricks of consistent size it's much more noticeable than if a jumble of vat solidified stuff is slightly the wrong size
16:15 < fenn> they will not be error free, but the statistics of the process is different
16:16 < fenn> it makes it possible to approach something more like digital matter
16:16 < fenn> things in known exact states that can be reasoned about and proven
16:19 < lsneff> Based on the literature, it should be possible to limit error rates to 1e-12 or lower, iirc
16:26 < fenn> now i'm all riled up
16:27 < fenn> i should probably eat something
16:27 < fenn> mineral epitaxy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rutile-Hematite-171993.jpg
16:27 < lsneff> doesn't look particularly tasty
16:27 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pigtail_from_Single_Crystal_Blade_Casting_shown_with_Kennedy_Half_Dollar_for_size_comparison.jpg
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17:35 < docl> of course, desktop nanosystems could include cryocooling and vacuum pumps. but the bootstrapping process to get there is expensive. with solution phase stuff you could probably have an inkjet printer make a series of catalysts to build the catalysts, if you have the right recipes. the workload for getting there could be distributed across many desktop scale labs without high vacuum / cryocooling capabi
17:35 < docl> lity..
17:38 < docl> and for the molecular modeling you can use existing high performance computing servers that have economies of scale and the benefits of many iterations of narrow nanotech (chip fabs). just seems more viable. not necessarily better than throwing a few billion in focused research at the zyvex approach, but more realistic with the given momentum.
17:42 < lsneff> That would be a great startup.
17:44 < fenn> honestly i don't understand how it's even supposed to work
17:45 < fenn> you keep calling them "catalysts" but that doesn't explain how it works at all
17:45 < fenn> add reagents ... and then magic happens ... and you get magic catalysts!
17:46 < fenn> did one of these lisp videos explain it?
17:47 < lsneff> I think the idea is to produce spiroligomers that produce other spiroligomers. Correct me if I'm wrong.
17:48 < docl> yes
17:48 < fenn> add reagents and magic catalysts ... and then magic happens ... and you get magic catalysts!*
17:48 < docl> pretty sure it was mentioned in one or both of the lisp videos, but might have been elsewhere. definitely got the idea from schafmeister somewhere
17:48 < docl> of using spiroligomers to make spiroligomers, that is
17:49 < fenn> well of course
17:49 < fenn> otherwise we're back to desktop DNA synthesis
17:49 < docl> yeah he's not talking dna synthesis
17:49 < fenn> desktop spiroligomer synthesis, block by block
17:50 < fenn> the nobili pesavento universal constructor is a huge monstrosity with a long data tape. how does a spiroligomer create more identical spiroligomers?
17:50 < fenn> does it read its own sequence somehow? does it have an amino acid (?) addition head?
17:51 < fenn> bis-amino acid*
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17:52 < fenn> do they just line up that way because like follows like?
17:52 < fenn> complementary base pairing style
17:54 < lsneff> It wouldn't be a universal constructor. Something that creates a copy of itself can be far simpler than a universal constructor.
17:57 < docl> basically the building blocks self assemble under certain conditions, but with the right catalysts you can influence the probability of a given reaction occurring and thus cause given spiroligomers to be built quickly/predictably
17:58 < docl> this is the other (older) talk, it goes into more detail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X69_42Mj-g
18:00 < docl> .title
18:00 < saxo> YouTube
18:01 < docl> at 11:03 he starts talking about catalysts
18:05 < docl> the building blocks are the amino acid based ring shaped molecules, described at 6:16. so the idea he's describing is to have spiroligomers catalyze the production of these from amino acids instead of having to use process chemistry (which does work, but apparently is expensive).
18:17 < fenn> that's how to build the building blocks, but doesn't explain how to assemble the exact correct sequence of building blocks into the machine that does the catalysis
18:19 < docl> actually I think that part is a stepwise process, not depending on the catalyst. so I described it wrong. once you have the building blocks it's basically following a program/recipe to get the given spiroligomer molecule.
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18:19 < fenn> ok so it's like desktop DNA synthesis
18:20 < fenn> you add drops of liquids in a particular sequence and let the reaction run to completion between each drop, and hopefully you don't get too many errors
18:21 < fenn> longer sequences are exponentially more likely to have bis-amino acid incorporation errors
18:21 < fenn> maybe a few errors doesn't matter though
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18:22 < thahxa> might be less important for peptides and these ring-peptide-like-things than with dna
18:22 < thahxa> b/c extra base or one removed in dna means frameshift
18:22 < fenn> off by one errors are much less of a problem
18:23 < fenn> right
18:23 < thahxa> yea more or less
18:23 < thahxa> at the same time though
18:23 < thahxa> dna synthesis uses the ac2o capping step
18:23 < thahxa> so maybe theres something similar here?
18:24 < thahxa> (random thought in the same direction: i wonder how much better/worse acetyl chloride would be than ac2o)
18:25 < fenn> since there's no way to detect and eliminate errors, even with a very low probability of error you end up with most long chains having an error
18:25 < thahxa> yeah
18:25 < thahxa> with no error correction anyways
18:25 < fenn> er, reactions driven very far to completion*
18:26 < fenn> not low probability of error, as that's basically a tautology
18:26 < fenn> most synthesis errors are deletions
18:27 < thahxa> either deletion or double insertion yep
18:27 < L29Ah> preparative mass-spectrometry plzkthx
18:28 < thahxa> isnt that what a calutron basically was?
18:29 < L29Ah> kinda; i guess peptides need softer handling than uranium though
18:29 < thahxa> yeah
18:29 < thahxa> my thought would be that it'd just be hplc
18:30 < L29Ah> afaik hplc can't separate such peptides well
18:30 < thahxa> then youre kinda outta luck then arent you?
18:30 < thahxa> cuz hplc is used for dna
18:31 < L29Ah> is it used to separate dna from dna-1?
18:31 < fenn> it's like running an agarose gel to determine the length, then cutting out the bands
18:31 < L29Ah> or just some different chunks from other completely different chunks out of your soup?
18:32 < fenn> but with less squishy stuff
18:32 < thahxa> iirc it is used for separating dna from dna-1
18:32 < thahxa> tho theres also dmto adhering whatever stuff
18:33 < fenn> what's dmto?
18:33 < thahxa> dimethoxytrityl
18:33 < thahxa> dna synthesis protecting group
18:36 < lsneff> .t https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26063523
18:36 < saxo> The computers rejecting job applications | Hacker News
18:36 < fenn> "The next logical step would be to train an adversarial AI against the hiring AI. You'd have the system generate your resume and application to maximize your chances. Then the hiring AI would need to be re-trained to account for this. And so on.
18:37 < fenn> Anybody who still writes out their resume by hand is considered a luddite weirdo, and definitely not someone you'd want to have join your company."
18:38 < thahxa> my next resume is gonna just be 3000 resumes put into gpt-neo and the first 300 words that comes out of that
18:39 < lsneff> "I kind of rambled on about this in another comment on this thread, but I paid someone $250 to optimize my resume with key words to appease AI. It worked. I got automated replies to schedule phone screenings from jobs that had rejected my old resume. It's already happening."
18:39 < L29Ah> plot twist: the industry switches to tiktok resumes
18:39 < fenn> "Growth opportunities I look forward to exploring" and then a long list of buzzwords and fad technologies in white text on a white background
18:39 < fenn> awesome suggestion
18:39 < lsneff> Yeah, I thought that was funny
18:40 < thahxa> the next thing that happens is that people start giving the tiktok resume both adversial static
18:40 < lsneff> I wish it was clearer how to make resume parsable by companies
18:44 < lsneff> honestly, pdfs are just such a shitty format for this
18:46 < L29Ah> 05:39:29]<L29Ah> plot twist: the industry switches to tiktok resumes
18:46 < L29Ah> it was supposed to be a joke, but quick googling suggests it is a thing already
18:46 < lsneff> wait what
18:46 < lsneff> seriously?
18:49 < fenn> this sounds ripe for trolling
18:50 < lsneff> https://www.vice.com/en/article/889ymz/as-the-job-market-collapses-gen-z-is-making-resumes-on-tiktok
18:53 < fenn> "I've made a TikTok about why you should hire me! (Hint: it's for my dog 🙃)
18:53 < fenn> will someone please think of the dog-children
18:57 < fenn> that chonker needs more snausages!
19:05 < fenn> "made me play a number of simple online games from the comfort of my own home.
19:05 < fenn> These included having to quickly count the number of dots in two boxes, inflating a balloon before it burst to win money, and matching emotions to facial expressions. Then an artificial intelligence (AI) software system assessed my personality, and either passed or failed me."
19:05 < fenn> totally not an IQ test, because that would be illegal crimethinc(tm)
19:07 < thahxa> are iq tests actually illegal? i thought they were fine for employment
19:07 < lsneff> if an application asked me to do a personality test, I'd probably just not submit it
19:08 < L29Ah> lsneff: why?
19:08 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co.
19:11 < lsneff> L29Ah: a company that is so large as to require that much filtering is probably not doing something very interesting
19:11 < lsneff> then again, I might do it because I just need a job
19:13 < L29Ah> ah, yeah, huge corporations aren't fun
19:14 < lsneff> even msft isn't doing that kind of filtering
19:14 < fenn> how do you know?
19:14 < lsneff> I interned there twice
19:14 < fenn> did you walk in the front door or were you referred?
19:15 < fenn> (implicitly vouched-for)
19:15 < lsneff> Not referred. Talked to recruiters who came to my university. Hmm, I guess that could've pushed through any filtering.
19:16 < lsneff> My friends haven't said anything about it though, so I don't think they are
19:21 < L29Ah> 06:08:30]<fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co.
19:21 < L29Ah> ohh that's why goog floods you with programming/compsci tasks instead
19:21 < fenn> eh?
19:22 < fenn> programming/CS is highly relevant to most jobs at google
19:23 < fenn> it's probably an even better predictor of job performance than IQ
19:23 < lsneff> They're probably directly correlated anyhow
19:23 < L29Ah> CS is mostly irrelevant to web and systems programming
19:24 < fenn> google does a lot of stuff at large scale, where knowledge of algorithms is important for even seemingly mundane problems
19:24 < L29Ah> aptitude at the technologies involved is more important
19:25 < fenn> a single programmer can accidentally tie up hundreds of millions of computers, wasting large amounts of electricity and machine time
19:25 < L29Ah> fenn: what algorithms do you need to know (more than their purpose and performance criteria alone) for (even not so) mundane problems?
19:26 < fenn> i don't work at google
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19:27 < fenn> big-O notation IS performance criteria
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19:27 < L29Ah> yes, and you don't need to know the implementation details or be able to implement the algorithm to know its big-O
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19:28 < fenn> sometimes you need to implement an algorithm even if it is commonly used
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19:28 < L29Ah> today almost no one needs to think out or implement an algorithm that is not just a few common ones clumped together using their interfaces, if we aren't talking research positions in the first place (that should have a separate hiring process as it's much different from sweng in the required skills and attitudes)
19:28 < fenn> this is like complaining about having to know spelling because there exist spell-checkers
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19:29 < lsneff> why are you guys arguing about this again?
19:29 < L29Ah> and i can read the ideas for the implementation in the thick book of algorithms of the decade
19:29 < fenn> people just like to argue apparently
19:29 < L29Ah> huh, have i argued about this already?
19:30 < fenn> again = idiom "please explain why"
19:30 < fenn> something like that anyway
19:31 < L29Ah> yeah, pretty much; arguing is good for you!
19:31 < fenn> too much argument makes jack a sour boy
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19:32  * L29Ah goes back to implementing a FTP client for a RTOS-less MCU bootloader
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19:43  * lsneff is implementing a replacement for gtkwave
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20:36 < lsneff> hmm, maybe I should look into kernelco
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22:27 < fenn> ...We shall win new feelings, superior to love and loyalty, from the field of the human heart. https://assets.gocomics.com/uploads/blogs/blog_image_large_4086_7578_Emoji_Day_Comics_201707061109.jpg
22:47 < fenn> "Each civilization has its royal affect, and its ignored or forgotten feelings. You have learned that in the human heart, love resides within such and such a circle, hate there in another, and between are pride, jealousy, all the royal and plebeian emotions. We say instead emotion is one unbounded field. Our way of life causes us to cross this field, now in one direction, now another, again and
22:47 < fenn> again on our way to the goals to which our world has constrained us. The paths crisscross, and eventually the field has well-travelled intersections, and blank areas where we
22:47 < fenn> have never walked. We name the intersections just as we do towns but not
22:47 < fenn> the empty fields between them. We name these oft-crossed places love, hate, jealousy, pride. But our destinations were made by the conditions of our lives, they are not eternal or inevitable.
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23:08 < nmz787_> L29Ah: electron beam lithography is a LOT higher resolution and cheaper than x-ray litho
--- Log closed Tue Feb 09 00:00:24 2021