--- Log opened Thu Feb 11 00:00:26 2021
00:06 < apotheon> 00:00 < fenn> they recently broke the /embed/ url trick that we were using to get titles without running a bunch of crap
00:06 < apotheon> That's exactly the kind of thing I assumed happened (though more specific than my guess).
00:07 < fenn> it seems that now the regular watch?v= url has titles again
00:07 < apotheon> That's nice.
00:08 < apotheon> Google wants to set The Standard for how to do things on the web, but keeps changing crap around and making things difficult.
00:08 < apotheon> I wonder how long it'll last.
00:08 < apotheon> (before the titles are broken again)
00:08 < fenn> The Standard is "log in and give us access to your entire life"
00:08 < apotheon> pretty much
00:09 < apotheon> That's how Google makes its money.
00:09 < fenn> also "we know better than the user"
00:09 < apotheon> This line is getting pretty hackneyed these days, but: "you are the product, not the customer"
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13:02 < docl> customers have always been products?
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13:53 < apotheon> Once upon a time, shoes were products, and people who wore shoes were customers.
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14:20 < docl> customer is a role played by a person, not a person. that role is an expression of market demand which is produced and consumed at the business level.
14:21 < fenn> businesses "producing demand" is a recent phenomenon (20th century)
14:22 < docl> nah, it's inherent to business. you can't have a business that doesn't create demand for its products.
14:22 < docl> blacksmith, cobbler, etc. is creating products which create demand by the fact that they can improve people's lives.
14:23 < fenn> the demand for those products existed before the business did
14:24 < fenn> corporations with marketing departments that dream up ways to convince people they need something is a different process
14:26 < docl> the process of people deciding the need shoes, etc. happens due to e.g. being aware of the existence of shoes. just because it's low-key doesn't mean there isn't a process going on whereby the demand is created, and the existence of shoes available to purchase is part of that process.
14:27 < apotheon> Thousands of years ago, shoes were made by the people who wore them.
14:27 < apotheon> then, division of labor
14:28 < apotheon> This is rapidly devolving into a semantic argument.
14:28 < fenn> in the google scenario, data about users is packaged up and sold to various third parties without the user's knowledge or consent
14:28 < apotheon> If what you're talking about is the difference between how Google treats you from the way a strictly-paid-only-with-no-advertising-side-business treats you, what docl said doesn't apply.
14:29 < docl> paid services do this too -- customer is willing to pay for X is valued information
14:29 < apotheon> If what you're talking about is the fact that awareness increases observable demand-driven behavior, what I said doesn't apply.
14:29 < apotheon> . . . but the fact docl means the latter doesn't mean the point of the former shouldn't be expressible.
14:30 < apotheon> docl: 22:28 < apotheon> If what you're talking about is the difference between how Google treats you from the way a strictly-paid-only-with-no-advertising-side-business treats you, what docl said doesn't apply.
14:30 < apotheon> There is definitely a difference in how those things treat you as a mail service user.
14:31 < apotheon> From Google's point of view, one can describe the email service model as "sell mail users to advertisers".
14:31 < apotheon> docl: Do you understand what I'm trying to say?
14:31 < apotheon> If so, let's drop it and move on.
14:32 < apotheon> If you insist on not understanding, I guess I'll drop it as pointless and you can have the last word.
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15:00 < docl> I haven't actually commented on the google thing, but the idea of a customer that "isn't a product" at a fundamental level sounds wrong to me, like you're indulging in some kind of nostalgic fantasy rather than seeing things as they are. I urge you to reconsider whether such a thing is even possible.
15:01 < docl> what's "strictly-paid-only-with-no-advertising-side-business" anyway? you can't have a business without any customers, so there has to be a route for information about your product to get to the customer. whether that's done deliberately or not is a different question.
15:01 < apotheon> That *is* a comment on the Google thing, by asserting that there's no meaning to what I said, basically, so . . . I guess the conversation never began, and thus has no need to end.  I can just acknowledge its nullity.
15:01 < apotheon> 'bye
15:03 < docl> that's a very annoying way to handle a disagreement, and I don't like it.
15:09 < apotheon> I didn't disagree with your thesis.  I pointed out a semantic difference in how we used words to talk about completely separate things, and you refused to acknowledge that in favor of ignoring my attempt to say something about how different businesses treat email service users.
15:09 < apotheon> . . . and now you're trying to have a meta-meta-semantic debate about it, I guess.
15:09 < docl> Ah, I think I just didn't parse this: "If what you're talking about is the fact that awareness increases observable demand-driven behavior, what I said doesn't apply."
15:10 < docl> so that was my point.
15:10 < apotheon> and you totally ignored mine
15:11 < docl> hmm. I do see what you are saying about gmail treating you differently from a mail service that doesn't sell your information.
15:11 < apotheon> great
15:11 < apotheon> the whole preceding wall of text is now shown to be pointless
15:11 < docl> (actually, I thought that was obvious enough not to need commented on... but I see not commenting on it was rude, sorry.)
15:12 < apotheon> May I move on now, or am I going to be criticized for poorly handling disagreements that never actually happened?
15:15 < docl> eh, I'm still irritated but it doesn't matter. go ahead, move on.
15:17 < docl> I'm probably just hangry :/
15:58 < docl> .wik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_microfluidics
15:58 < saxo> Article not found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_microfluidics gave 404 | Searched en for 'https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital microfluidics' | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_result_found gave 404 | Searched en for 'No result found'
15:58 < docl> .title https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_microfluidics
15:58 < saxo> "Digital microfluidics (DMF) is another platform for lab-on-a-chip systems that is based upon the manipulation of microdroplets. Droplets are dispensed, moved, stored, mixed, reacted, or analyzed on a platform with a set of insulated electrodes." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_microfluidics
16:01 < docl> hmm. doesn't say what "another" refers to, maybe inkjet?
16:02 < docl> ah, it's described later as in contrast to continuous-flow microfluidics
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16:26 < docl> .wik microfluidics
16:26 < saxo> "Microfluidics refers to the behaviour, precise control, and manipulation of fluids that are geometrically constrained to a small scale (typically sub-millimeter) at which surface forces dominate volumetric forces." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microfluidics
16:26 < docl> there are actually a lot of different approaches to this
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16:57 < fenn> .wik optoelectrowetting
16:57 < saxo> "Optoelectrowetting (OEW) is a method of liquid droplet manipulation used in microfluidics applications. This technique builds on the principle of electrowetting, which has proven useful in liquid actuation due to fast switching response times and low power consumption." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optoelectrowetting
16:57 < fenn> my fav
16:58 < fenn> diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/Single-sided continuous optoelectrowetting (SCOEW) for droplet manipulation with light patterns - LCD - 2010.pdf
17:00 < fenn> this was the plan for combining many DNA oligos from the synthesizer into larger contiguous pieces
17:01 < fenn> you can synthesize them directly on the SCOEW plate and then manipulate the droplets in parallel
17:02 < fenn> directly on a cellphone LCD or with a projector
17:02 < fenn> phones have stupidly high numbers of pixels now
17:04 < fenn> http://parkersolarprobe.jhuapl.edu/News-Center/admin/Press-Releases/images/articles/wispr_merged_six_planets_20200607-0.jpg
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--- Log closed Fri Feb 12 00:00:27 2021