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06:58 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26261314
06:58 < saxo> GNU Taler – Payment system for privacy-friendly, fast, easy online transactions | Hacker News
06:59 < L29Ah> tl;dr: tax-me-more currency
07:16 < fltrz> does anyone know of a field of view deflection system? I'd like to deflect the a display in a users view and keep the display centered so it is at rest with respect to the retina
07:17 < fltrz> so it needs eye tracking, and a view deflection system, so I thought about galvanometer mirrors, but these are very bulky and only allow small FoV / deflections since the eyeball rotates around its center, and you don't want the mirror hitting the eye, so the mirror becomes large and thus heavy with high moment of inertia
07:22 < fenn> so you want to rotate a mirror around the center of the eye?
07:23 < fenn> or some holographic equivalent
07:24 < fenn> i guess you could encode a holographic image of a prism into a disc so that when you rotate the disc it rotates the prism
07:24 < fenn> the rotations don't have to correspond in space
07:24 < fenn> what's the goal here?
07:28 < fenn> the holographic film could be stiffened with a hierarchical tapered metal waffle grid, so it has a low moment of inertia, and the film itself isn't carrying any mechanical load from rotational acceleration
07:29 < fenn> since it's moving, the opaque elements get blurred
07:34 < fltrz> the goal is just to keep each pixel on a screen at the same corresponding place on the retina
07:35 < kanzure> L29Ah: more?
07:36 < fenn> all existing virtual retinal displays that i know of are narrow exit angle (narrow field of view, constrained by the pupil movement mostly)
07:36 < L29Ah> fltrz: consider a hard drive head-deflecting assembly
07:36 -!- superkuh_ is now known as superkuh
07:37 < L29Ah> overall sounds really hard to obtain the stability enough for a 2Mpix image, that's considered normal for a display today, as you also need a quick and precise way to track the eyeball
07:37 < fltrz> L29Ah, yes I thought about voice coils from HDDs, but the main problem is still that the mirror will result in high moment of inertia because it needs to follow the pupil as well
07:40 < fltrz> fenn, so what is the position of the prism at recording time with respect to the film, right up to it, or at a distance? if you rotate the hologram, the prism would move out of view
07:40 < fenn> oh i figured it was a synthetic (computer generated) hologram
07:41 < fenn> frankly i don't understand how this is supposed to work
07:41 < fltrz> I didn't firt mention hologram, you did first, so now you propose a synthetic hologram? thats going to be expensive
07:41 < L29Ah> tell me please what "virtual retinal display" is
07:41 < fenn> i have seen some toy holograms that have a moving figurine when you rotate them. so however it is that they make those, but with an optical element instead of a toy
07:42 < L29Ah> as it seems to me that any display is also a virtual retinal display and vice versa
07:42 < fenn> L29Ah: it's like what you see in hollywood movies when they show the evil robot stalking the helpless damsel
07:42 < fltrz> guys, I just want to deflect the image of a plain normal lCD panel in the users field of view
07:42 < L29Ah> fenn: i do?
07:43 < fenn> well i have to make some assumptions in order to have succinct communication
07:44 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_retinal_display
07:44 < L29Ah> fenn: can you link me a virtual retinal display and a non-virtual retinal display?
07:44 < L29Ah> i've read that already
07:44 < fenn> well a VRD would always be in focus, that's one big difference
07:44 < L29Ah> why would it?
07:45 < L29Ah> your eye has dynamic focusing system embedded in it
07:45 < L29Ah> and you can't bypass it
07:45 < fenn> because it adjusts for the eye's lens focus
07:45 < fenn> and bypasses it
07:45 < fltrz> I think most of that non-nomenclature comes from differentiation and avoiding patent trolling
07:45 < fenn> no it really is different from just looking at an image
07:46 < L29Ah> ok so it somehow measures the lens focus and then varies the beam incidence angle
07:46 < L29Ah> amirite?
07:47 < fltrz> it should somehow change the curvature of the optical wavefront if it wants to "bypass" the eye lense dynamic focus
07:47 < fenn> it's just changing the focal length of the laser output lens
07:48 < fenn> or literally moving the lens
07:49 < L29Ah> so it must be as huge as a conventional display would be
07:49 < L29Ah> at the corresponding distance from the eye
07:50 < fenn> in the first concept that i heard of, there was a single MEMS mirror in front of the eye, that scanned over a large area of the retina. the problem is that if you look away from it, the edges of the pupil cut off the beam
07:50 < fenn> so it can show peripheral imagery, but only when you're looking right at it
07:51 < fltrz> looks like they finally cleaned up the wikipedia page which first insinuated that a laster close to the eye lens somehow doesn't need focusing / is unaffected by eye lens focusing without needing to correct for it
07:51 < L29Ah> a point mirror can't scan over a large area of the retina
07:51 < fenn> fltrz have you played with a RGB laser projector?
07:51 < L29Ah> ah, you can if you focus to infinity
07:52 < fenn> the image coming out of a MEMS laser projector seems in focus along the entire cone
07:52 < fltrz> fenn, projection on a screen is very different
07:52 < fltrz> what L29Ah said, at infinity
07:53 < fltrz> fenn, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperfocal_distance
07:54 < L29Ah> interesting stuff; too complex to hack together in a few evenings tho
07:54 < fltrz> "seems" can be very confusing, did you need to dim the laser projector? how did you verify its focus for high brightness image of after a few cm?
07:55 < fenn> the image looks crisp
07:55 < fenn> no i didn't dim anything
07:55 < fenn> it looks crisp even on tilted screens, which is not what a regular projector would do
07:56 < fltrz> that doesn't make sense physically, unless they are using the laser to measure distance and slowly adjust a lens for autofocussing
07:56 < fenn> the image is formed by a large number of parallel beams, one for each pixel
07:58 < fenn> anyway it doesn't have to be "at infinity" as far as the eye is concerned, it can be a fixed offset for any subjective focal "distance"
07:58 < fenn> you do have to focus on it
07:58 < fenn> (unless the system has autofocus)
07:59 < fltrz> so, the RGB laser projector did need manual focusing?
07:59 < fenn> no
07:59 < fenn> i don't even know what we're talking about anymore
07:59 < fltrz> you speak in a very confusing fashion
08:00 < fenn> there's like four different optical systems under consideration, half of which i don't really understand
08:00 < fltrz> oh, of course the user has to focus on the screen lol
08:00 < fenn> the virtual screen
08:01 < fenn> ok maybe it would help if i explained that some VRDs were just RGB projectors pointed into your eye
08:01 < fenn> RGB laser projectors*
08:02 < fltrz> I'm also not really fond of scanning projectors, since the eyeball rotates when tracking moving images, which is why I want an LCD panel with a deflection system in the first place
08:02 < fenn> these were highly parallel arrays of MEMS mirrors
08:03 < fenn> it does have the horrible rainbow artifact though, caused by switching between R, G, and B
08:03 < fltrz> oh, so its a DLP projector, lit by laser
08:03 < fenn> yes
08:04 < fltrz> I prefer an image that can be presented as a single flash, by a backlight
08:05 < fenn> i wish they would dither the images in time at a high frame rate to achieve different levels of brightness, instead of picking a frame and then dithering it and then going on to the next frame
08:06 < fenn> the individual mirrors can achieve a very high rate of on-off switching
08:06 < L29Ah> > In the same year, QD Laser, a Japanese laser maker spun off from Fujitsu, developed the first commercialized true VRD RETISSA Display. In the following year, the firm started to sell the successor VRD RETISSA Display II which featured a higher resolution equivalent to 720p.[9]
08:06 < L29Ah> > contact for pricing
08:06 < fenn> i want to say 100kHz but i'm not sure
08:06 < fltrz> but they kind of do dither the images? well its a bit more complicated due to gamma, but imagine it were linear domain: theirs say 8 frames per frame, corresponding to each bitplane of the pixel
08:08 < fenn> in 2002 "According to TI's website, the DMD can switch more than 50000 times per second."
08:09 < fenn> if you rapidly switch between R, G, B much faster than the frame rate, it reduces the rainbow fringing upon eye movement
08:10 < fenn> i think i notice this stuff a lot more than other people
08:10 < fltrz> fenn, so divide by say 60Hz =? ~ 100 switches per frame, divide by say 8 => ~ 10 per bit plane: last t8
08:11 < fltrz> last time I checked the DLP couldn't update the whole frame at once, so there were banks of mirrors, 10ish sounds about right
08:11 < fenn> yeah i was thinking about the relationship between maximum bit depth and switching speed and decided they were not identical, because you can PWM the mirrors
08:11 < fltrz> ok an extra 0
08:12 < fltrz> fenn, but you can't individually PWM the mirrors currently, you write a bitplane to the device and can update a bank of mirrors
08:12 < fenn> theoretically you could do that faster than the mirrors can actually switch
08:13 < fenn> so the minimum brightness would be greater than the difference in brightness between 00 and 01
08:13 < L29Ah> don't you want to scan retina with the mirrors?
08:14 < fltrz> you'd need per mirror memory (analog or digital) to store the values
08:14 < fltrz> L29Ah, apparently fenn was talking about DLP mirrors
08:15 < fenn> i said that wrong. the difference in brightness between 00 and 01 would be greater than the difference in brightness between 01 and 02, and 03 - 02 = 02 - 01
08:15 < fltrz> where at least myself was initially under impression he was talking about scanning system
08:15 < fenn> both types existed at one time
08:16 < fenn> and they were both called VRD
08:16 < fltrz> it was a buzzword
08:17 < fenn> i feel like if you can see an image where there is no optical element blocking your line of sight, it's a virtual retinal display
08:17 < fenn> i don't know how other people define it
08:18 < fltrz> what do you mean with optical element blocking line of sight? are you talking about real and virtual images as in ray optics?
08:18 < fenn> i don't know that much about optics and the jargon
08:18 < fltrz> does a beamsplitter block your line of sight?
08:18 < L29Ah> fenn: so a semi-transparent mirror will do!
08:19 < fenn> no that is exactly the thing i am referring to when i say "optical element blocking your line of sight"
08:19 < fenn> if there's just a dot in front of your eye with a mems mirror, it can scan a larger subjective area than the area occupied by the dot
08:19 < fltrz> fenn, you are aware of reciprocity of light?
08:19 < fenn> no
08:20 < fenn> "if you can see it, it can see you"?
08:20 < fltrz> oh, you mean a tiny mirror with smaller cross section area than your pupil?
08:20 < fenn> yes
08:21 < fenn> it has to be big enough to not cause diffraction problems though
08:21 < fltrz> that would still require focusing depending on the user / setup if theres background scene
08:23 < fltrz> also, imagine looking at an object somewhat to the left, such that the display is half faded, even if you keep your eye still, but the background scene has varying brightness, your pupil will enlarge or shrink, modulating the display brightness
08:23 < L29Ah> https://yt3.ggpht.com/rqTkyEiwrOMZCpTD95fewlQFFrYByFwio8VgdtiDyuwnmZnA5EuyC6HNC-fRQZe56bSsDiTlv6rf0g=s640-nd
08:23 < fenn> well yeah that's a problem
08:24 < fenn> gummy vitamins are gross anyway
08:24 < fenn> just eat candy
08:25 < fenn> man, so many failed HMD products
08:26 < fenn> why can't the business guys realize we just want the HMD equivalent of a monitor
08:26 < fenn> plug it into a video port
08:26 < L29Ah> https://shop.wakasa.jp/products/retissa-display-ii ok $3k for 1MP it seems
08:26 < fenn> they all have ridiculous unnecessary proprietary restrictions
08:27 < L29Ah> i have a HMD that i can plug in DP
08:28 < L29Ah> but its mechanical stability sucks for its tiny view angle
08:33 < fltrz> I was thinking about forgetting the retina for a moment and focusing on the pupil, imagine a wide eyebox, wide FoV microscope ocular, then rotating the eyeball (pretend its just moving in a plane) would be minified to a small deflection
08:33 < fltrz> so the pupil is like a moving aperture
08:34 < fenn> yes that's what it is
08:34 < fltrz> but instead of a rotating aperture its become a translating aperture
08:34 < fenn> there's not a huge difference
08:35 < fltrz> because a lens or an ocular converts angles into positions roughly speaking
08:35 < fenn> i mean the difference between a translating aperture and an aperture rotating around some point not in the plane of the aperture
08:35 < fltrz> if the imagery is intended at infinity, the depth variation of the pupil becomes irrelevant
08:36 < fltrz> depth variation as it rotates
08:37 < fenn> so you're talking about rotating the whole microscope around the center of the eye
08:37 < fenn> is that about right?
08:37 < fltrz> no, just a hypothetical wide FoV, wide eye box ocular that is fixed with respect to the head
08:38 < fltrz> I will have to draw this out
08:38 < fenn> i have a few different eyepieces for my telescope
08:39 < fltrz> I suspect the catch is the conflicting figures of merit of wide FoV and wide eyebox
08:39 < fenn> one has a 12mm stem (cylinder that plugs into the telescope) and the other has a 30mm stem. the 30mm one is much easier to see through because you get less vignetting
08:39 < fltrz> yes vignetting = eye box effect
08:42 < fltrz> woops I was wrong of course
08:42 < fltrz> the position of the pupil becomes an angle on the other side of the ocular
08:43 < fltrz> yes then we can use a small galvano close to the ocular!
08:46 < fenn> well good luck with that, i'm getting bored
08:49 < fenn> i wish descriptions of ray optics would just shut the hell up about the eye, and talk about CMOS sensors instead
08:50 < fltrz> why should it shut up about the eye?
08:51 < fenn> because it's this complicated thing with a bunch of extra optical elements and it moves and it has autofocus and so on
08:52 < fenn> and instead they treat it like a point, which makes no sense either
09:04 < fenn> random thing i found today https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolamite
09:20 -!- jrayhawk_ is now known as jrayhawk
09:24 < fltrz> is the BCI nomenclature on read/write upload/download standardized on some terminology so you dont have to spell out brain to computer, or computer to brain all the time? if not what would be the clearest terminology? uplink, downlink? afflink efflink? (afferent, efferent)? ...
09:24 < fltrz> aff and eff is too close, so would be confusing
09:25 < fltrz> input and output is also super confusing, because we call a mouse an input device, and a screen an output device? so just carry that over from consumer electronics?
09:26 < L29Ah> brain to computer
09:26 < L29Ah> computer to brain
09:26 < L29Ah> b2c c2b ;)
09:32 < fenn> electrons are negative
09:33 < fltrz> yes, but its long to pronounce in syllables, and its awkward to pronounce as acronym
09:33 < fltrz> perhaps impress and express?
09:33 < fenn> does cybernetics say anything relevant
09:34 < fenn> it seems to me like a problem with where to draw the borders of the box
09:35 < fenn> you can draw the box around the brain, or you can draw the box around the interface device, or you can put it somewhere else???
09:40 < fltrz> fenn, yes that is exactly it
09:42 < fenn> i wanted to call attention to how the brain-device interaction was a system
09:42 < fenn> but then i started thinking about how different parts of the brain interact with each other, and different parts of the device interact with each other, and realized there's no good place to put a border
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09:45 < fltrz> linguistically impression and expression are closer to the human mind, while transmitter and receiver are closer to electronics. so I guess an impression transmitter and expression receiver would be rather clear
09:48 < lsneff> I'm really frustrated with gpu drivers right now. I'm writing an interpreter of sorts that runs within a compute shader, and there's actually no way to disassemble and optimize shaders in any significant way. I can't enforce that certain things lower to jump tables or anything like that.
09:51 < L29Ah> lsneff: AMD's GPU ISA is open and you can compile/disassemble stuff
09:51 < lsneff> Yep, but who knows what's going to happen on nvidia gpus
09:51 < lsneff> Also, I don't have an amd gpu
09:51 < L29Ah> nvidia does all kinds of nasty stuff to lock you out of your hardware
09:52 < L29Ah> don't give it money
09:53 < fltrz> perhaps I should take a closer look at beam rotators, say like those with dove prisms
09:53 < L29Ah> https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/nvidia-updates-geforce-eula-to-prohibit-data-center-use/ this one is my favorite
09:56 < lsneff> It's a really interesting technique that's puts together prior art in a way that I haven't seen done, but it basically relys on gpus being able to compile a switch statement to a jump table.
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10:13 < fltrz> fenn, thanks for reminding me about Rolamite, I had read that page a few times before, but now I'm wondering if it can be used for coarse positioning in micro EDM
10:15 < fltrz> not sure how they used those as pumps, it looks fine in 2D, but how would they handle the edges?
10:16 < fltrz> ah perhaps they just used them as outer bearings to keep the piston precisely positioned, so theres no friction with the walls, and very little in the bearing
10:16 < fenn> wouldn't it just roll on the edges of a box
10:17 < fenn> the tape doesn't seal, the rollers do
10:17 < fenn> i guess
10:17 < fltrz> so the edges of the foil have an air gap with the box
10:18 < fltrz> as pictured the edge of the s shaped foil would slide against the box walls (the walls parallel to our screen, in front and back
10:19 < fltrz> perhaps as a pump for viscous media, but then friction is typically dwarfed by intrinsic friction / viscosity of the medium
10:22 < fenn> i like impression and expression but transmitter and receiver is ambiguous
10:23 < fenn> sensor is unambiguous
10:23 < fenn> not sure what the inverse of sensor is
10:24 < fenn> display?
10:25 < fltrz> actuator?
10:25 < fenn> actuator implies a mechanical system
10:26 < fenn> maybe indicator but it feels bad
10:26 < fltrz> yeah, that is part of our problem, in that most have strong association with a sensory modality
10:26 < apotheon> STDOUT
10:26 < fenn> not helping
10:26 < fltrz> dial?
10:26 < fenn> huh?
10:27 < fltrz> valves and dials
10:27 < fenn> uh no
10:27 < fenn> too specific
10:28 < fenn> display feels like a high bandwidth thing, and indicator is a low bandwidth thing
10:28 < fltrz> generator / sensor?
10:28 < fenn> stimulator
10:28 < fltrz> yes
10:28 < fltrz> stimulus response
10:28 < fltrz> stimulator, responder
10:29 < fltrz> exhale, inhale
10:30 < fenn> so from the brain side: expression/impression, and from the electronics side: stimulator/sensor
10:30 < fenn> we didn't have to invent any new words, and everything's unambiguous
10:30 < fenn> i'll call that a win
10:30 < fltrz> yeah, so an impression stimulator, and an expression sensor
10:31 < fltrz> lol, stimulator / sensor or perhaps dictator / censor?
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14:39 < fltrz> just ordered a bunch of audio codec chios
14:41 < fltrz> if the auditory BCI doesn't work, I can always try an EEG or perhaps a 2000 pixel audiorate imager, or perhaps a monster 2000 in 1300 out monster audio interface
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17:22 < lsneff> Looks like it's possible to run rust on gpus now.
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--- Log closed Fri Feb 26 00:00:40 2021