--- Log opened Mon Mar 01 00:00:43 2021
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05:00 < darsie> Robert McIntyre asked me to chat with him. I'm thinking of inviting him here.
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05:02 < L29Ah> Robert MacIntyre
05:02 < L29Ah> Scottish professional golfer
05:04 < andytoshi> if he's on IRC he definitely ought to be here
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05:26 < docl> http://aurellem.org/
05:27 < docl> neuroscientist
05:47 < L29Ah> > First, ASC uses glutaraldehyde to almost instantly stabilize the brain against natural decay processes.
05:47 < L29Ah> lol
05:47 < L29Ah> no thanks sir
05:50 < docl> He's showed up here before http://gnusha.org/logs/2015-12-16.log http://gnusha.org/logs/2015-12-17.log
05:57 < docl> L29Ah: are you an anti-uploader?
05:59 < L29Ah> kinda, also i doubt there's enough to upload after you crosslink the hell out of your cell proteins
05:59 < docl> I think even without uploading there's an argument to be made for glutaraldehyde as a bridge to future technologies that can directly restore biological functionality.
05:59 < L29Ah> nah, you won't restore the biological functionality ever after aldehyde treatment
06:00 < L29Ah> you can't do that even in a single cell in lab conditions afaiu
06:00 < docl> electron microscopy suggests very similar results if you compare glutaraldehyde crosslinked to optimally cryofixed tissue (possible in small samples under high pressure)
06:01 < docl> of course it's not a thing with current tech, we're discussing it as a bridge to future tech.
06:02 < L29Ah> we're talking smart nanobots-level future tech here
06:02 < L29Ah> with atomically precise C-O bounds cleavage abilities
06:03 < L29Ah> s/bound/bond/
06:04 < docl> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2459253/figure/F2/ has a side by side (older than mcintyre's work) of cryo vs glut
06:07 < docl> basically, I think this would be mostly tooltips mounted on flat surfaces, the brain tissue will be sliced thin early in the process, and the work will happen at ultra low temperatures where you have a wider range of possible nanomechanics (if it's too warm, conventional chemistry dominates)
06:09 < docl> obviously that won't be possible in big tissue before it's possible in microscopic samples, but I can't think of a way to rule it out.
06:13  * L29Ah prefers crooks like David Sinclair
06:13 < docl> who's that and why do you prefer crooks?
06:14 < L29Ah> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Andrew_Sinclair
06:15 < docl> ah resveratrol
06:15 < L29Ah> because the anti-aging movement is full of crooks, so i kinda presume they all are to avoid sounding like promoting fraudsters
06:17 < docl> problem with anti-aging is that biology is such a rube-goldberg contraption. hard to tweak just a little bit.
06:17 < L29Ah> sure
06:18 < L29Ah> and you can't really get much monies for your biology research w/o making stretchy promises
06:18 < docl> whereas cryobiology is more of a physics discipline
06:19 < docl> the interesting thing about preservation is it buys you time. curing aging is probably going to happen at some point, but we could all be dead by the time it happens. reversing brain preservation issues can take generations and still be worth it.
06:20 < L29Ah> except no one would store your brain for generations
06:20 < docl> why not?
06:20 < docl> there's generations old brains in brain banks
06:21 < L29Ah> more useful/fun stuff to do?
06:21 < L29Ah> how do those brain banks get monies?
06:21 < docl> it's not that expensive to store a brain
06:22 < L29Ah> interpreting vague answer as: they don't, and eventually run out of money
06:22 < docl> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/dna-from-old-brains/
06:23 < L29Ah> it's not that expensive to store a string in a bank/broker/real estate/DNS database, yet people have to pay money for that, and are getting problems when they stop
06:23 < docl> are you hostile or something? I can get more specific but if you're just going to move the goalposts or something I'd rather not bother.
06:24 < L29Ah> who would ever answer "yes" to such a question?
06:25 < L29Ah> i'm not sure if i can explain why i dislike this h+ direction w/o "moving the goalposts" or something
06:25 < docl> how cryonics facilities avoid running out of money is kind of common knowledge (one would think), and the fact that you're making assumptions without researching basic questions like this suggests you might just be hostile
06:26 < L29Ah> > how cryonics facilities avoid running out of money is kind of common knowledge
06:26 < L29Ah> the only i know is just a Ponzi scheme
06:26 < docl> nope
06:26 < L29Ah> *only one
06:30 < docl> maybe this will come as a surprise to you to learn, but cryonics patients are typically required to deposit a large sum so that it will accrue compound interest over time and pay for their upkeep indefinitely. that's the main cost of cryonics.
06:33 < L29Ah> the deposit is getting cheaper with time and can't pay for anything indefinitely
06:33 < docl> what do you mean by that?
06:35 < docl> it's the upkeep that goes down in cost over time since you can move to a more efficient container. the deposit grows with time because you spend less than the interest on upkeep. you're familiar with the concept of old money, right?
06:35 < L29Ah> i mean that if you think it could work, you don't understand how economy works and think that money has a magic property that allows it to produce goods and service out of thin air
06:36 < L29Ah> yes, if the upkeep is getting cheaper faster than your money, but it's highly unlikely
06:36 < docl> there are people who don't have to work a day in their life, because some ancestor put a big chunk of savings aside. this gets diluted if the family grows, but that's not an issue for cryonics patients.
06:36 < L29Ah> i'm not aware of any service that got cheaper faster than money over centuries
06:37 < docl> you aren't aware of economic growth?
06:37 < L29Ah> i mean you can probably pay for centuries of storage (but the storaging company's stability quickly becomes the primary risk source here), but you can't pay for infinite storage
06:38 < docl> you think more than a few centuries are needed?
06:38 < L29Ah> yup
06:38 < docl> what makes you think that?
06:44 < docl> In terms of funding itself, infinite storage time can be paid for because the economy doesn't just arbitrarily shrink in the long run. It's other risks that dominate. Earthquakes, fires, wars, that sort of thing. It does get hard to predict confidently that any given strategy will last more than a century or so. But incremental improvements to that safety factor are also possible to make, e.g. moving t
06:44 < docl> o a well shielded space based structure. Thousands of years isn't that unlikely.
06:48 < docl> Note that I'm not arguing exponential growth is infinitely possible -- the economy may drop off to a linear growth rate in 1000 years. That's sufficient to the argument because upkeep costs are not exponential wrt time.
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06:57 < docl> there are two other powerful arguments for indefinite funding over time: humanitarian interest and curiosity
06:57 < docl> like, we keep thousands of years old incan mummies and >100 year old brains around for a reason
06:58 < docl> that mainly being curiosity or historical interest
06:59 < docl> so even if you were correct that it can't be paid for as a simple economic transaction, it would be against human nature to just throw away interesting old brains.
07:00 < docl> but what if those interesting old brains could be returned to life? that introduces a humanitarian interest reason to keep them around, namely that failure to do so is a form of negligent homicide
07:01 < docl> so that's three arguments that work *independently* to refute the notion that we can't pay for cryonics. throw in the fact that it's cheap and can get cheaper, and I think it's just ludicrous.
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07:09 < docl> and these seem like such obvious points, it boggles my mind that people don't think of them immediately... this is a recurring conversation I've had with many people on separate occasions, btw, not singling you out. seems like something pervasive (cultural? instinctive?) is preventing people from seeing the obvious, it's like they don't *want* to know if it can work.
07:21 < fenn> storing an aldehyde preserved brain indefinitely can be done in a refrigerator, or at something like the svalbard seed bank
07:22 < fenn> i guess i'd prefer a solution that doesn't depend on machinery that can fail
07:22 < fenn> the only real "cost" is preventing people from stealing the brains, which would be easier if they were wrapped in meaty human-shaped layers
07:23 < docl> ah, but not infinitely. it needs to last 2 billion years at least, otherwise cryonics is a scam!
07:23 < fenn> this is why i'm mad that mcintyre is charging so much money for his service (a service which nobody else provides)
07:23 < fenn> a million dollars to put something on a shelf
07:26 < docl> uh, it's a little more involved than just putting something on a shelf. you have to perfuse with glutaraldehyde first, then you need cryogenic temperatures if you want to avoid slow lipid degradation. also, you need to pay for revival/uploading somehow. first few cases of that might be pretty expensive.
07:27 < fenn> do lipids degrade in an anaerobic environment?
07:27 < fenn> i don't care about the cost of revival/uploading, that's a silly argument
07:28 < docl> I haven't really read up on lipid degradation tbh, just have heard it's a thing
07:29 < docl> the cross-links of aldehydes don't stabilize lipids though, so I assume it's a problem of the structure becoming less coherent with time due to brownian motion and such.
07:29 < fenn> well if you put olive oil in the fridge it turns into a solid
07:29 < docl> converting to osmium tetroxide (expensive due to the hazards of handling) could remove that as a consideration
07:29 < fenn> presumably this is the reason for the refrigeration requirement
07:30 < fenn> anyway, contrast this to "traditional" cryonics where your body turns to mush if the liquid nitrogen runs out for a day
07:31 < docl> OsO4 is needed for electron microscopy in any case as I understand it, so if you just care about reducing long term cost and paying fixed costs up front it might be worth it
07:32 < fenn> future space robot gods can stain me all they want, but it's a bit presumptive to think that your particular choice of technology will be needed
07:32 < docl> well, running out tends to take more than a day since it's the latent heat of vaporization of the ln2 powering the cooling
07:32 < fenn> i mean once the tank is empty
07:32 < fenn> then you start to thaw
07:33 < fenn> a typical dewar has like a month of boiloff time?
07:33 < fenn> better hope you're at the bottom
07:33 < fenn> they store the full bodies head down for this reason
07:35 < fenn> i tried to get mcintyire to consider using enzymatically reversible crosslinker, but he went off on a rant about how that's religion because it doesn't matter if your real body is revived as long as the pattern yadda yadda
07:35 < fenn> which is unfortunate
07:36 < docl> it's more of a concern at small scales, a small tank can run dry fast. alcor dewars are big enough / insulated enough that it takes about 30 days to run dry from the time it's filled
07:36 < docl> https://www.alcor.org/docs/cryopreservation-procedures-section-20-storage.pdf
07:37 < fenn> that's just fine and dandy as long as 1) someone's there to pay attention and 2) civilization hasn't crashed
07:37 < fenn> wouldn't you rather have a nice quiet bog somewhere in the tundra?
07:37 < fenn> a bog of one's own
07:37 < docl> reversible crosslinking is something you might be able to get with spiroligomer tech (along with many other cryonics relevant molecules)
07:38 < fenn> seems overkill
07:38 < fenn> just regular bulk organic chemistry will do fine
07:39 < docl> also not being submerged isn't as bad as warming -- the vapor is cold, so as long as there's some liquid in the bottom you are still being kept cool.
07:39 < docl> thing is spiroligomer tech seems to be less rube-goldbergy than biotech
07:40 < fenn> you mean for the enzyme?
07:40 < docl> potentially for both enzyme and cross linker
07:41 < docl> although glut is a nice small molecule, which might not be possible to beat
07:41 < fenn> here's a dumb example: suppose you encode into oligos of DNA "CUT HERE XXX EREH TUC" and stick some aldehyde groups on the ends with organic chemistry
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07:42 < docl> assuming we are limited to diffusion (which we might not be, with the right molecular machines) small molecules have the advantage they can get everywhere quickly
07:42 < fenn> now you can just perfuse the tissue with a restriction endonuclease and it will cut the crosslinker
07:42 < fenn> there will be stubs of DNA sticking out everywhere but that doesn't sound so bad
07:43 < fenn> right, unfortunately DNA is a big molecule and won't cross cell membranes on its own
07:44 < fenn> i don't have any ready-to-go examples of small molecule cutting enzymes though
07:46 < docl> spiroligomers are smaller than DNA, but I think tend to be bigger than the simple organic compounds like glutaraldehyde
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07:46 < L29Ah> 18:23:51]<fenn> a million dollars to put something on a shelf
07:46 < L29Ah> KrioRus is much cheaper
07:47 < docl> KrioRus is closer to the ponzi scheme model you were criticizing earlier
07:48 < L29Ah> yup, they use LN storage, that's much more expensive than a fridge, afair
07:49 < docl> ln2 is cheaper (and more reliable) than an electric deep cryo cooler
07:50 < docl> which is what everyone assumes is being used ("what if someone pulls the plug by accident or forgets to pay the electricity bill")
07:50 < L29Ah> or forgets to refill LN
07:51 < docl> for 30+ days yeah
07:51 < L29Ah> so what's the difference between KrioRus and that guy?
07:51 < fenn> or there are mad max bandits hijacking every truck within 500 miles
07:51 < L29Ah> they're located in Moscow so i doubt there's going to be LN shortage
07:52 < lsneff> L29Ah: the method
07:53 < L29Ah> lsneff: ok so that guy's doesn't require the LN-sort of temperature?
07:53 < L29Ah> if we're talking Svalbard
07:54 < docl> (my above critique of KrioRus could be outdated -- I just remember they used to allow pay as you go, which Alcor and CI agree is a bad model -- some early cryonics enterprises tried that and failed spectacularly because it turns out loved ones don't like paying monthly for a loved one's upkeep)
07:54 < fenn> wouldn't it be nice if wikipedia didn't have an ongoing war against transhumanism and i could just look up facts like with everything else
07:55 < L29Ah> > they used to allow pay as you go
07:55 < L29Ah> i recall it being implemented a contract with a third party life insurance company that pays a hefty sum to KrioRus after you die
07:55 < L29Ah> sounds fine to me
07:56 < L29Ah> as the third party has an interest in keeping you alive
07:56 < docl> Yeah that's the accepted model. Good to hear.
07:56 < docl> Svalbard is the Colorado guy in dry ice storage?
07:57 < fenn> svalbard is an island in the arctic ocean with near-freezing temperatures
07:57 < L29Ah> Svalbard is an arctic mountain cave
07:58 < docl> ah, I'm thinking Bredo Morsteol
07:58 < docl> dry ice would be better than anything you naturally get on earth
08:00 < fenn> "Aud was eventually evicted from her home for living in a house with no electricity or plumbing, in violation of local ordinances."
08:00 < fenn> land of the free
08:00 < docl> although I did have an idea for cooling the central antarctic as a strategy to prevent sea levels from rising -- might be able to go cold enough to have a self sustaining dry ice pocket in the middle.
08:03 < fenn> "Frozen Dead Guy Days is typically celebrated on the second weekend of March. Coffin races, a hearse parade, and "Frozen Dead Guy" lookalike contests are held."
08:04 < fenn> "Other events include a tour of the Tuff Shed where Grandpa is still frozen; a "polar plunge" for those brave enough to go swimming in Colorado in early March (which generally requires breaking through the ice); a dance, called "Grandpa's Blue Ball";and snow sculpture contests. Glacier Ice Cream, headquartered in the nearby city of Boulder, makes a flavor specifically for the festival (named,
08:04 < fenn> appropriately enough, Frozen Dead Guy),"
08:06 < fenn> if i'm reading these city ordinances right, they've effectively enforced vegetarianism on the town's populace
08:07 < fenn> Municipal Code, "Keeping of bodies", outlawing the keeping of "the whole or any part of the person, body or carcass of a human being or animal or other biological species which is not alive upon any property"
08:08 < docl> did grandpa bedo get grandfathered in?
08:08 < fenn> indeed
08:10 < docl> sadly, straight freeze and dry ice storage is unlikely to work out for him. unless cryonics is easier than we think
08:10 < docl> but aldehyde preservation + dry ice storage is credible
08:10 < fenn> he was stored in a cryonics facility first, then removed from liquid nitrogen and stored in dry ice
08:11 < fenn> oh, but they came from norway so i guess the body had already decomposed
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08:19 < docl> L29Ah: kriorus doesn't offer glutaraldehyde perfusion fixation, so they are limited to cryo-only. also, mcintyre hasn't actually provided the service yet, he was at one time offering to contract with people for when it becomes available.
08:20 < docl> (he was offering refundable deposits)
08:20 < docl> this was short lived and generated a lot of negative press for some reason
08:21 < fenn> it was the "100% chance of mortality" quote
08:22 < fenn> i think he was going to offer assisted suicide to people with terminal illness or something like that
08:22 < docl> lol normies
08:24 < docl> it's a "scam" if you wait patiently for legal death but "unethical" if you use assisted suicide which is already legally allowed
08:24 < fenn> then clearly murdering people is the only option
08:25 < fenn> why go halfsies
08:25 < docl> "hey wait, let's talk about this..." "no thanks, now that I've blocked your enterprise I am content to ignore you"
08:26 < docl> "but I have concerns about using the word patient on wikipedia, clearly severed head corpse is a better term"
08:28 < fenn> "didn't you mean disgusting illegal biomedical waste? that's more neutral"
08:33 < docl> "of course the disgusting gullible idiots who choose to pay their own money for this should be allowed to do it, technically, but they can't go outside the medical system because that would be quackery, and no the medical system doesn't need to help them, we're trying to save lives here"
08:36 < L29Ah> the medical system "regulation" in the western world is just ridiculous
08:37 < L29Ah> can usanians still buy paracetamol w/o a M.D.-shaped meatbag visit as a necessary prerequisite for their own safety?
08:40 < docl> Yes, tylenol/aceteminophen/paracematol is available cheaply off the shelf here
08:42 < L29Ah> what about metformin?
08:42 < docl> no doubt thanks to the tireless lobbying of johnson&johnson
08:42 < docl> nah pretty sure you need a rx for that
08:43 < docl> or modafinila/provigil and so on
08:43 < docl> er modafinil
08:43 < L29Ah> modafinil is banned in .ru as a narcotic :(
08:44 < docl> crazy
08:44 < L29Ah> otoh the non-psychoactive pharma is virtually always OTC-accessible
08:44 < L29Ah> and non-anabolic also
09:16 < fenn> obviously anabolic steroids are evil; they came from the soviet union
09:16 < fenn> haven't you seen Rocky IV
09:24 < L29Ah> i didn't
09:24 < L29Ah> at least the peptides aren't banned yet
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10:25 < kanzure> fenn: his prices are substantially lower these days. it's not a million.
10:59 < fenn> i'm loving rocketlab's neutron announcement video: http://youtu.be/agqxJw5ISdk?t=2m25s
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14:45 < fltrz> bah, they don't have the audio codecs to fulfill my order...
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18:20 < fenn> "Why should we plant, when there are so many mongongo nuts in the world?"
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