--- Log opened Thu Mar 11 00:00:52 2021 00:23 < maaku> I couldn't get into Greg Egan's work :\ 00:23 < maaku> maybe I'll try again 01:30 -!- yonkunas [uid403824@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tlmfhkeqhcrlpvow] has quit [] 01:30 -!- yonkunas [uid403824@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-srokaewtgyxiqerz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:33 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:42 -!- apotheon [~apotheon@copyfree/founder/apotheon] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:45 -!- apotheon [~apotheon@copyfree/founder/apotheon] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:41 -!- apotheon [~apotheon@copyfree/founder/apotheon] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:42 -!- Llamamoe [~Llamagedd@088156213240.radom.vectranet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:45 -!- apotheon [~apotheon@copyfree/founder/apotheon] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:42 -!- Llamamoe [~Llamagedd@088156213240.radom.vectranet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:46 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:fd61:df53:8eef:260a] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:46 -!- join_cordblood [~join_cord@135-23-248-163.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:00 -!- mrdata- [~mrdata@unaffiliated/mrdata] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:04 -!- archels_ [~neuralnet@static.65.156.69.159.clients.your-server.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:04 -!- livestradamus [~quassel@unaffiliated/livestradamus] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:04 -!- balrog_ [~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:05 -!- dr_orlovsky [~dr-orlovs@31.14.40.19] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:06 -!- dustinm [~dustinm@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:06 -!- pasky_ [~pasky@nikam.ms.mff.cuni.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:07 -!- fltrz_ [~fltrz@109.236.129.101] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:07 -!- sknebel_ [~quassel@v22016013254630973.happysrv.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:07 -!- dustinm- [~dustinm@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:07 -!- balrog [~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:07 -!- mrdata [~mrdata@unaffiliated/mrdata] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:07 -!- fltrz [~fltrz@109.236.129.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:07 -!- nanotube [~nanotube@unaffiliated/nanotube] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:07 -!- archels [~neuralnet@unaffiliated/archels] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:07 -!- dr-orlovsky [~dr-orlovs@31.14.40.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:07 -!- Hooloovo0 [Hooloovoo@sorunome.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:07 -!- sknebel [~quassel@v22016013254630973.happysrv.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:07 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:07 -!- pasky [~pasky@nikam.ms.mff.cuni.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:07 -!- livestradamus_ [~quassel@95.179.151.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:07 -!- sivoais [~zaki@199.19.225.239] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:07 -!- sivoais [~zaki@199.19.225.239] has quit [Changing host] 05:07 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:07 -!- gnusha [~gnusha@unaffiliated/kanzure/bot/gnusha] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:07 -!- balrog_ is now known as balrog 05:08 -!- Hooloo42 [Hooloovoo@sorunome.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:18 -!- join_cordblood [~join_cord@135-23-248-163.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:22 -!- sknebel_ is now known as sknebel 05:22 -!- nanotube [~nanotube@unaffiliated/nanotube] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:27 -!- sknebel [~quassel@v22016013254630973.happysrv.de] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:27 -!- sknebel [~quassel@v22016013254630973.happysrv.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:48 < L29Ah> .t https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fneur.2020.00623/full 05:49 < saxo> Sorry, t took too long 06:20 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kipebrbwmetedvdi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:50 -!- metl_boar [~root@52.144.111.37] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:51 < docl> fenn: basically my concept of the universe becoming pancake like is like a rotation in spacetime such that part of the space turns into time and vice versa. like it's really the same size but looks more pancake like if you are only considering the space part 08:34 -!- fltrz_ is now known as fltrz 08:35 < apotheon> L29Ah: Seems great for Alzheimer's treatment. Do you know of any alternate methods for handling the central nervous system functions of microglia to make up for that in case of infection, though? 08:38 < L29Ah> apotheon: i only heard of Cortexyme stuff wrt potential chronic brain infection treatment 08:38 < apotheon> I'm still on the lookout for good news regarding suppression/removal of Amyloid-beta itself. 08:39 < apotheon> Nothing about acute infection treatment, I guess. 08:39 < apotheon> L29Ah: Thanks. 08:42 < apotheon> My Compose key doesn't seem set up to handle lower case beta, unfortunately. 08:42 < apotheon> I mean, it is, but only if I have a dead_greek key configured, and I'm not even sure how to do that. 08:42 < apotheon> time for research 08:44 < apotheon> ugh, xmodmap 08:44 < apotheon> I'll have to figure out what key to map. 08:46 * L29Ah uses & prefix for greek for XCompose 08:47 < L29Ah> https://github.com/l29ah/config-misc/blob/master/.XCompose#L127 08:49 < L29Ah> https://jabber.ru/upload/39a6331ed2e382bf293488235a28cdf02ecaea70/82jyr9fNx5XKYk47uiBalCNHgAQB2Qdo2BjQyB8n/bcfd08fe3a8c4a25.jpeg 08:51 < apotheon> L29Ah: Interesting idea. Thanks. 08:52 < apotheon> amusing image 08:53 < apotheon> I once responded to some of the "serverless" hype by just sharing a screenshot of the serverless computing article on Wikipedia where it says stuff about service providers running customer code on servers. 08:54 < apotheon> "Oh, so it's basically just Someone Else's Servers!" or something like that. 09:03 < apotheon> Oh, shit, a friend just pointed this out for me: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/03/210309192548.htm 09:03 < apotheon> published two days ago 09:24 < lsneff> Why is mind uploading so difficult for people to understand? They keep bringing up continuous experience and "which one is you" :/ 09:25 < apotheon> That's easy. The upload is the clone. 09:28 < L29Ah> mind isn't a thing 09:28 < L29Ah> so there's nothing to understand about mind uploading 09:30 < lsneff> Yeah, there is no copy problem 10:55 < maaku> lsneff: gonna hard disagree with that position 10:56 < maaku> we understand mind uploading just fine. just disagree on the importance of expectations over future experience when undergoing an upload 10:56 < maaku> i've gotten tired of having this debate though 11:09 < lsneff> I guess this is something that everyone gets tired of debating 11:28 < maaku> Unfortunately it's not an academic debate though where cryonics is involved. 11:28 < maaku> I get serious anxiety from the fact that basically everyone involved in cryonics is in the mind-uploading camp. 11:53 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kipebrbwmetedvdi] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 11:57 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-102-171-33.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:12 < lsneff> Well, the alternative is having nanobots rebuild all the damaged, frozen neurons in your brain. That just sounds like uploading + recorporialization to me. 12:18 < maaku> lsneff: we lack a sufficient model of the physical basis of consciousness to say whether a century-long deep freeze + nanobot rebuild is destructive or not it's a hard to categorize edge case 12:19 < maaku> but there's nothing uncertain about destructive mind uploading. 12:19 < apotheon> What are your thoughts on the "mind isn't a thing" argument? 12:20 < apotheon> (roughly "mind doesn't exist", in my interpretation of that statement -- a sentiment I've encountered many times) 12:21 < maaku> I'll give you a mind dump on that, then walk away. It's not that I don't like to debate it, it's just not a productive use of time imo. But I don't mind stating my views. 12:23 < maaku> There are a bajillion things I want to do, more than I could ever do in a natural lifetime. And I'm inherently selfish--*I* want to do those things. 12:24 < apotheon> That's cool. 12:25 < maaku> It doesn't give me confort that some other being with my memories and personality will experience those things, even if that person is externally indistinguishable from me and even thinks they're me. 12:26 < L29Ah> i propose calling it "meatocentrism" 12:26 < maaku> I want to see the rings of Saturn in person or stand on an alien world in another solar system or different galaxy, and *I* want to do that, not a copy of me. 12:26 < maaku> L29Ah: Meat doesn't matter. A ship of theseus upload is acceptable. 12:28 < maaku> The "I" in this description of my wants is the same sense as if I'm going bowling this afternoon I have a reasonable expectation that I will actually experience bowling, even though my brain and body have changed and I'm technically not the same person by then. 12:29 < maaku> There's some general way in which there's a person which continuously exists from the moment I'm typing this until I go bowling in a few hours, and it's that continuity that I'm gestering towards. 12:30 < maaku> Now it's pretty easy to show through contradiction that destructive uploads do not preserve this property. 12:31 < apotheon> continuous qualia 12:31 < L29Ah> don't fall asleep! 12:32 < apotheon> Qualia occur in sleep as well. 12:32 < maaku> L29Ah: lack of memories doesn't mean lack of existence. I'm not braindead when asleep 12:32 < maaku> (I don't go under general anthesthesia though, for this reason) 12:32 < maaku> If I get frozen, my brain scanned, and then a simulation started, it feels like this should be a continuation of me. But that feeling is deceptive. 12:33 < maaku> What if we then start a *second* instance of me? Which instance should I expect to experience, in the continuous existence sense? 12:33 * L29Ah smells circular logic 12:34 < lsneff> Yeah, I get where you're going with this maaku, but I don't personally agree 12:34 < maaku> Now consider a non-destructive upload. Should I expect to experience what theupload experiences or the meatbag version of me that still exists experiences? 12:34 < lsneff> Both 12:34 < lsneff> Both would be you 12:34 < maaku> lsneff: not with the definitions I'm using above 12:35 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:35 < maaku> externally you couldn't tell the difference. but from the metric that I care about, continuity of conscious experience, meatbag is me and the upload is not 12:35 < maaku> again though, uploads aren't off the table. you'd just have to do a ship of theseus transition 12:36 < maaku> and you could copy yourself in a way that you do expect to experience both copies, by doing a brain fission instead of a copy 12:36 < maaku> thinking about this can get complicated! 12:37 < lsneff> what do you mean by brain fission? Wouldn't that just be duplicating the mindstate? 12:38 < apotheon> lsneff: What happens if you ask meat maaku how it feels to be non-meat maaku? 12:38 < maaku> lsneff: like the patients who get a labotomy and then have one personality "locked in" a body they don't control 12:39 < maaku> distribute computation holographically across a whatever brain substrate you are using, and then cut the substrate in half 12:40 < maaku> anyway having thought long and hard about this for two decades of my life, and having pursued at one point a career in physics to understand the nature of this (I care a lot!) I'm convinced that there is a meaningful way of defining persistent consiousness in the way that I mean 12:41 < apotheon> Let's not forget the corpus colossum severing experiments. 12:41 < maaku> but most approaches pursued by transhumanists unfortunately do preserve this property :( 12:42 < apotheon> I think you meant to say "don't". Yes? 12:42 < maaku> whoops correct 12:42 < maaku> don't preserve 12:43 < maaku> cryonics might preserve this kind of continuous existence form of personal identity. it's hard to say. 12:44 < L29Ah> hey kanzure https://secure.diyhpl.us/piny-newuser gives me 500 12:45 < apotheon> Yeah, this whole thing is basically about the concept of qualia. 12:45 < maaku> apotheon: yes, although academic philosopher's concept of qualia is very confused and often associated with dualism, so I prefer to avoid that term 12:46 < L29Ah> qualia exist even less than mind indeed! 12:46 < maaku> I said I conservatively avoid general anesthesia, because it chemically shuts down the brain's center of consciousness 12:46 < L29Ah> is there a center of consciousness? 12:46 < maaku> But if true, then cryonics of any form are definately out. 12:46 * L29Ah avoids general anesthesia because it kills neurons 12:47 < maaku> well, the pre-frontal cortex and many of the regions it connects to 12:47 < apotheon> maaku: Qualia as a concept isn't itself dualism-dependent. It's pretty widely accepted as a phenomenological principle of value regardless of dualistic metaphysics. 12:47 < L29Ah> do people lacking PFC lack consciousness? 12:48 < apotheon> It is, in fact, a necessary component of even asking questions about these things, at a fundamental level. 12:48 < lsneff> Yeah, I avoid general anesthesia, but I don't think it getting it would stop me from "being me". 12:48 < apotheon> Any associations with dualism are either historical or, themselves, confused. 12:49 < maaku> So I think I can say this regarding my views: Destructive slice-and-scan is *definately* not preserving of continuous-experience/qualia. Sleeping does not break this property however. 12:49 < apotheon> maaku: Thanks for clarifying your views on that. 12:49 < apotheon> I appreciate it. 12:50 < maaku> And inbetween on this spectrum is things like cryonics (with nanobot restoration) and general anesthesia which are edge cases we don't have a good enough model of consciousness to determine whether they break that property or not. 12:50 < maaku> apotheon: np 12:51 < maaku> I'm happy to answer questions about this. It's just that I've found this to be one of those deeply polarizing topics that people either agree or don't and literally can't comprehend the other side. 12:52 < maaku> Possibly the mind projection fallacy at work. 12:52 < apotheon> The sort of (for lack of a better description) universal (pseudo-)holographic pattern-based qualitative existence notion in Permutation City was an interesting countercase, but I find it difficult to devise a real-world confirmation experiment that could be employed prior to just building the same kind of digital world. 12:52 < lsneff> maaku: I also appreciate you elucidating. 12:53 < lsneff> I think we talked about this a long, long time ago. 12:53 < apotheon> maaku: I think I comprehend the various sides, to the extent that I've found people willing and able to explain their beliefs on the matter. The difficulty is finding people who'll calmly explain their beliefs, and understand their own beliefs enough to describe them meaningfully. 12:55 < apotheon> I also find that, all too often, when one person expresses a belief, another whose belief is different tends to just dive into angry retorts and dismissiveness, which destroys lucid communication. 12:55 < apotheon> It's really frustrating. 12:55 < apotheon> This is one of the more calm and pleasant examples of information being shared, which was nice. 12:59 < maaku> apotheon: +1 12:59 < maaku> also I'm not aware of Permutation City. I'll have to check that out. 12:59 < apotheon> great novel 12:59 < apotheon> I think someone mentioned it here, yesterday, actually. 12:59 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:00 < apotheon> maaku: On the specific subject of divergent qualitative clones, I recommend Greg Egan's . . . novella, maybe? . . . Learning To Be Me. 13:00 < apotheon> There seem to be two types of scifi that address the matter directly: 13:01 < apotheon> 1. stuff like Learning To Be Me and William Gibson's Winter Market 13:01 < apotheon> . . . which question the consequences of incautiously seeking "immortality" through upload and so on 13:01 < lsneff> In fact, many of Greg Egan's works are about consciousness in the face of mind uploading. 13:02 < apotheon> 2. stuff like Tad Wiliams' series about digital upload stuff (I forget what it's called) and the writings of Cory Doctorow and Charles Stross 13:02 < apotheon> . . . which basically mock people through author-inserts and so on for raising the question 13:03 < apotheon> Option 2 is deeply unsatisfying reading. 13:03 < apotheon> In Permutation City, Greg Egan seems to almost take both sides simultaneously, but in a thoughtful way throughout. 13:06 < apotheon> The Tad Williams stuff, to be clear, doesn't do the mockery-through-narrative thing. It's just uncritical of the question -- arguably ignorant of it. 13:07 < jrayhawk> i am looking into that piny thing 13:09 < apotheon> That https://secure.diyhpl.us/piny-newuser page fails to load for me, by the way. 13:09 < apotheon> Maybe it requires a login I don't have. 13:10 < apotheon> "internal error or misconfiguration" 13:21 < maaku> apotheon: a lot of the transhumanist writings fall in Option 2 as well. Yudkowsky uses mocking and bullying as a rhetorical technique (and dismisses concerns over "identity" as confused dualism-in-disguise) 13:22 < jrayhawk> L29Ah: should work better now 13:23 < L29Ah> jrayhawk: great, thanks 13:26 < L29Ah> piny is surprisingly cute 13:28 < jrayhawk> when it works 13:57 < apotheon> maaku: Yeah, Yudkowsky says some smart stuff, but also some stupid shit. 14:43 < fltrz> maaku, what do you think about the "Moravec Procedure"? the outer layer of brain is inspected, digitized, and replaced neuron by neuron to duplicate the neurons behavior electrically and chemically, so there is no discrete moment where you can say "aha this point is where we cross the line", you are awake throughout, and at the end you are entirely digitized. at that point any 2 copies of the digital system are essentially equivalent 14:43 < fltrz> https://www.ibiblio.org/jstrout/uploading/moravec.html 14:49 < fltrz> after the procedure you can dim the lights in the room; then 1) you can copy the original brain-replaced-with-digital-neurons; into a ruplicate digital brain 2) mount the "original" digital brain into a robot, and do the same with the "copy"; (but they will both remember the same position in the room when it was still lit; so while in the dark you move them around the room before switching the lights on again. Neither "original" nor "copy" is now 14:49 < fltrz> sure which he is 14:51 < fltrz> but they'll remember the same passwords and pincodes; so you have to fork your possessions before forking 14:53 < fltrz> maaku, at some point, as a straight male, one can not figure out if one is a normal straight male, or really a macho lesbian who was fortunate enough to be born in the body of a male 14:53 < fltrz> it might leak in some side channel though, like catching yourself watching a suspicious dose of lesbian porn... 14:57 < L29Ah> fltrz: i'm a meatbag you meatphobic scum #meatprideunite 15:01 < fltrz> if someone attacks me physically, and I consider myself a macho lesbian who was fortunate enough to be born in the body of a male, does the attack on me qualify as homophobia? 15:02 < apotheon> fltrz: My take is "I'm not first." 15:03 < apotheon> (re: neuron-by-neuron replacement) 15:06 < apotheon> It's effectively an experiment in the Ship of Theseus approach to uploading whose results must be determined by actually doing it to a (volunteer|victim) before its significance can be meaningfully determined. 15:09 < fltrz> yes its ship of theseus of the brain 15:15 < apotheon> I find the injected nanotech Brain of Theseus approach on the same site slightly more interesting, theoretically. 15:20 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-emnrnpxuvznxprfd] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:32 -!- metl_boar [~root@52.144.111.37] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:32 < lsneff> The ship of theseus brain idea is probably the most palatable, but I'm not confident that it'll be possible, even in the distant future. 15:39 < apotheon> There's another alternative that occurred to me a long time ago: 15:40 < apotheon> Start building exocortices as enhancements, and gradually shift funcitionality -- a synapse's worth at a time -- from neurons to exocortices. 15:41 < apotheon> Local integrity isn't necessary. You don't necessarily need a (bodily) Theseus experiment -- just a Ship experiment. 15:42 < apotheon> Monitor for qualia/identity/continuity (QIC) integrity failures; start reversing if any crop up. 15:43 < apotheon> maybe s/Local/Locality/ 15:44 < apotheon> The best part is that even if it doesn't end up being a QIC integrity compliant process you still get a bunch of cool exocortex features when you're done. 15:56 < maaku> "at that point any 2 copies of the digital system are essentially equivalent"<-- was fine up until here 15:57 < maaku> you can do a ship of theseus digital conversion of the brain; I have no problem with that 15:57 < maaku> but even once you're 100% digital, you still need to concern yourself with copying vs. moving 16:00 < maaku> if you do as described where you do a slow digital conversion, then *copy* the result into a robot and delete/destroy the original, then you've murdered the original and created a clone 16:01 < apotheon> given the same assumptions, yes, that's the case 16:02 < maaku> that said, you could probably turn on and attach the robot body to the original brain with distributed computation, and then turn off connection to the original meat body to achieve the same result without subjective death 16:03 < maaku> basically moving computation around also needs to respect the same ship of theseus constraints 16:08 < apotheon> yep 16:08 < apotheon> That just sounds like a less fun and more error-prone way to do what I was talking about with exocortices. 16:15 < fenn> i considered Permutation City as a disproof of discontinuous identity. if it were possible to do something like shuffling your consciousness through arbitrary states of computronium, it would have happened already because the universe is large 16:17 < fenn> for what it's worth, i'm undecided on the issue; i can understand both points of view 16:17 < fenn> there's a bit of Pascal's Wager going on in cryonics no matter which side you take 16:17 < apotheon> "Disproof" may be a little strong, but it certainly places a heavy buden of proof on those who claim discontinuous identity. 16:18 < apotheon> I have a clear point of view on it: 16:19 < apotheon> "Proceed with caution: insufficient data." 16:21 < fenn> the third (unmentioned) possibility with the nano-ship-of-theseus conversion is that the evil nanobots literally kill you and create an evil robot impostor 16:22 < fenn> (why is it evil? i don't know) 16:23 < fenn> but you're essentially being flayed alive and don't know it 16:24 < fenn> they kill you bit by bit 16:24 < fenn> i have read another version where the robots patiently wait until your neurons die of natural causes, but it's the same objection 16:25 < apotheon> Yeah, if they take over the part of you that would object to the process first . . . you're screwed. 16:25 < apotheon> Yeah, the "die of natural causes" occurred to me, of course. 16:25 < apotheon> We just need more good experiments in metaphysics. 16:26 < apotheon> Maybe we'll come up with an "upload" solution that doesn't even use anything we recognize today as digital technology. 16:28 < fenn> meh 16:28 < fenn> can you provide a version of that thought that doesn't involve quantum woo 16:30 < apotheon> I was just saying "there are ideas we haven't had yet" in a weird way. 16:31 < apotheon> Maybe it'll involve fungal hybridization. 16:31 < apotheon> (just spitballing in the dark) 16:39 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-102-171-33.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:41 < metl_boar> www.goog 16:42 < metl_boar> sorry, wrong keyboard 16:44 < apotheon> I have that problem sometimes, too. 16:44 < fenn> apology rejected! 16:44 < fenn> you take that back! 16:44 < metl_boar> Ha! 16:44 < fenn> hey guys, how do we stop the creeping plague of TLD proliferation 16:46 < apotheon> we don't 16:53 < maaku> fenn: namecoin? 17:01 < apotheon> That actually just adds a TLD. 17:01 < apotheon> If you mean "ignore everyting but Namecoin", now you're talking about "How do we ignore the creeping plague of TLD proliferation?" instead of stopping it. 17:01 < apotheon> s/everyting/everything/ 17:02 < apotheon> Sometimes, ignoring a problem is effective, though. 17:15 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:fd61:df53:8eef:260a] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:27 < L29Ah> fenn: would be nice to stop the creeping plague of internet centralization, including ICANN selling TLD entries 17:31 < maaku> apotheon: DNS needs to go away completely 17:31 < maaku> it's a failed identity model 17:31 < apotheon> I'm open to a good way to do that. 17:33 < L29Ah> onion addresses are nice 17:33 < L29Ah> namecoin is also tolerable 17:33 < L29Ah> both can provide auth 17:33 < L29Ah> so no need for x.509 CA plague 17:35 < superkuh> I've had a 5w fanless celeron mining for torv3 vanity addresses since october 2019. 17:36 < maaku> apotheon: a real web of trust model 17:36 < maaku> https://www.weboftrust.info 17:55 < apotheon> I'm actually inclined toward the idea of something akin to an expansion of the way "hosts" files work (into something more manageable) with WoT-based sharing (both push and pull mechanisms) and local system namespacing to keep things organized. 17:55 < apotheon> I just haven't gotten around to writing up a spec for the idea. 17:55 < apotheon> maximal decentralization 17:57 < apotheon> A big site-discovery service provider (e.g. search engine, query-able DB, or hierarchical directory) would just be another node. 17:58 < apotheon> Domains in mainstream DNS are just aliases for addresses, after all. With the right tools for local management, you can have your own aliases. 17:58 < fenn> but shared meanings for words is a necessary component of natural language communication 17:59 < apotheon> The sharing protocol would imply some necessary structural forms for how the aliases are stored, and various name resolution systems (e.g. mainstream DNS, Namecoin, et cetera) can just be stuffed into whatever namespace(s) you want. 18:00 < apotheon> It could even effectively replace browser bookmarks. 18:01 < apotheon> (speed-dial-like functionality is desirable for particular cases) 18:01 -!- imuo [ae643563@cpe-174-100-53-99.neo.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:02 < apotheon> It's mostly a theoretical notion in my head that is sitting there waiting for me to complete the other million things I have ahead of it in the queue, though. 18:08 < fltrz> maaku, I don't understand the rebuttal. Consider the following variation of the Moravec procedure: first randomly label each neuron with number 1 or 2 with equal probability, then instead of just replacing each neuron with a digital / analog neuron that behaves like the same neuron (both in deterministic and stochastic aspects). but instead of removing / destroying the original neuron, if its labeled with 1, it stays there; and if its labeled with 2 18:08 < fltrz> its moved to a brain vat, and the signals that its artificial replacement receives are duplicated and sent to this neuron; continue one neuron at a time; now you have 2 brains, each containing half the original biological neurons; and each containing artificial duplicates. which one is original? this thought experiment can be varied with labels 1 up to N to create N brains; given that each has symmetrical claim to being original, and we can take the 18:08 < fltrz> limit of N going to number of neurons in the brain, at the end each just has 1 original neuron 18:09 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:10 < fltrz> if the many worlds interpretation is correct; which history describes the real you? aren't they all you; but you only experience one branch subjectively 18:10 < fltrz> identity is just a pragmatic illusion as long as we don't have the technology to fork 18:11 < fltrz> the moment we have the technology, its a financial illusion (since you can't afford to fork every 5 seconds) 18:18 < maaku> fltrz: I'm not going to continue this discussion. Cheers. 18:19 < lsneff> Another one: https://www.atomicmachines.com/ 18:20 < lsneff> Might shoot them an email. 18:20 < fltrz> maaku, oh, I'm also tired of the dualism vs monism thing. 18:44 < apotheon> It's not really about dualism vs. monism as maaku presented it, as far as I can tell. It's more about measuring a distinction of qualitative continuity, and figuring out what that distinction -- if it yields a detectable difference -- actually means. 18:45 < apotheon> (vs. just deciding in advance there's nothing to measure and making a sudden, drastic change, then asking a present entity after the fact if it can tell at that time that anything happened when the qualitative experience may have already been irrevocably lost) 18:46 < apotheon> In a way, it's like a comparison of two scenarios: 18:47 < apotheon> 1. You put an apple in a room. You pass out. You wake, and the apple seems to still be there. 18:47 < apotheon> 2. You put an apple in a room. You remain conscious and watch as one of two things happens: 18:47 < apotheon> a. The apple stays there. 18:48 < apotheon> b. The apple rolls several inches to the left. A new apple drops from the ceiling and lands where the original apple had been. The original apple grows legs, walks itself to a garbage chute, and hops in, vanishing from sight. 18:49 < apotheon> 1 and 2 are actually the same, except for being unconscious for part of the scenario and thus missing what did (or didn't) happen during the intervening time. 18:49 -!- imuo [ae643563@cpe-174-100-53-99.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Connection closed] 19:11 < fltrz> as long as all parties are convinced they are the original, any distinction is of a dualist nature 19:12 < apotheon> What if they're not? 19:13 < fltrz> Oh. I'll certainly concede it can be botched, the question isn't can it be botched but rather can it be done without botching it? a company could -without actually possessing such tech- claim today already to upload you to a computer, just make a vague chatbot, kill you, and present it to the world as being you.. 19:14 < apotheon> You're talking about a shell game. 19:14 < fltrz> its not because people may scam you, or because something can be botched that it proves dualism right 19:15 < fltrz> at the end the claim is very similar to the emotional heart, or to the homunculus in a biological robot that is the human body 19:15 < apotheon> Okay, carry on. 19:16 < fltrz> we know dualism is wrong 19:16 < fltrz> everything we talk about, must be physical and interact physically, if it didn't we couldn't think or talk about it. 19:18 < fltrz> suppose a person writes about his "soul", on a piece of paper. how can something leave a trace in the physical world (ink on paper) without physically interacting with the world? hence whatever the author considered his "soul" where physical phenomena in his brain 19:19 < fltrz> monism won out over dualism a long time ago with this type of argument 19:28 < fltrz> regarding the "without physically interacting with the world", a "dualist" who claims the heart/soul/homunculus can interact with the world is really tacitly admitting that this thing is physical too, and hence a crypto-monist who tries to save face 19:31 < fltrz> just like this crypto-monist "dualist" tacitly admits monism, so do monists tacitly admit panpsychism: we *are* the universe, and re-membering our identity and knowledge is really more properly termed "here-membering" signals that are more tightly coupled: the probable next states of the brain depend more on the previous states of the same brain than it depends on the previous states of the matter in some other brain in a different skull 19:32 < fltrz> think of inverse square laws in physics and this becomes rather evident and expected 19:34 < fltrz> apotheon, so really, you and me, are the same "we the universe / physics" that locally doesn't realize we are the same thing evolving matter 19:36 < apotheon> Sorry, I wasn't paying attention. 19:37 < apotheon> I've read the last line, though, so apparently: pantheism. 19:37 < fltrz> this might sound like a hippie speech "lets not hurt each other because we are really hurting our one and the same self" at first sight, but really it isn't: just like you don't mind cutting your hair to subjectively improve your aest-ethics, this theory makes no ethical statement regarding say killing one another to improve our "universe" est-ethics 19:37 < fltrz> apotheon, yes monism invariably leads to panpsychism 19:38 < fenn> a big ball of wibbly wobbly psychey wikey stuff 19:38 < fltrz> exactly 19:39 < fltrz> one doesn't derive any useful information from this perspective, other than that identity is ... an illusion 19:40 < fenn> you pull back the curtain, revealing ___ 19:41 < fltrz> from this perspective, we don't even need to execute any Moravec procedure: humans already die and get born and matter gets recycled, so Ship of Theseus has been occurring since long before the concept was conceived 19:41 < fenn> fuck off and die already then if it doesn't matter 19:42 < fltrz> in other news: vaccines contain tiny nanobots; in yet other news: all life is composed of nanobots 19:43 < fltrz> fenn, I never said things don't matter ;) they do matter: subjectively 19:43 < fenn> isn't that the entire argument though? 19:45 < fltrz> uhm no, the argument is that uploading doesn't pose a conundrum, and that neither of N equivalent 1/N'th original offspring have a claim to be the "original" 19:45 < fltrz> offspring / upload / copies 19:46 < fltrz> the only conundrum / paradox is the realization that identity is a temporary illusion 19:46 < fenn> you are just denying the existence of subjective reality 19:46 < fenn> something you can't prove 19:46 < fltrz> I don't deny the existence of subjective reality, to the contrary I believe in it 19:47 < fltrz> the subjective reality is an illusion within an objective reality 19:47 < fltrz> I know its an illusion for fact: I have multiple times in my life, grabbed the key I "knew" was in my pocket to open the door, to discover... it wasn't! 19:48 < fltrz> the "fuck me, right, I changed pants this morning" feeling 19:52 < fenn> this is not addressing my point, which is that things can be true or false without having any appreciable effect on the world 19:52 < fenn> just rewind to the apple switcheroo scenario 19:53 < fenn> you can't _tell_ it's not the original apple, but that doesn't mean you're right 19:53 < fenn> similarly, something could actually be happening inside a meatbag that you can't necessarily observe from the outside. certainly not if you start with the attitude that you don't even need to look 19:55 < fenn> you can't both say "things do matter: subjectively" _and_ "it doesn't matter if you can't tell the difference from the outside" (paraphrasing) 19:55 < fltrz> fenn, again: I'm not saying you can't be scammed 19:55 < fltrz> I *am* saying: we know its possible theoretically without scamming 19:57 < fltrz> the only upload service I would trust, is one that I ran myself 19:58 < fltrz> also, I accept natural death, which is probably viewed as quite dinosaurically senile in this channel 19:59 < fenn> if you accept natural death then you also shouldn't mind if i preserve your brain for historical interest 20:04 < fltrz> I accept natural death, but would also accept uploading, if I did it myself 20:05 < fenn> i guess you'll have to invent time travel as well 20:05 < fltrz> thats part 1 one of the plan ;) 20:06 < fenn> please don't invent time travel 20:06 < fltrz> why not? 20:06 < fenn> it breaks everything 20:06 < fltrz> like dirty schemes? 20:06 < fenn> no like literally everything 20:06 < fltrz> not necessarily, if the inventor is benevolent 20:08 * fenn sighs 20:09 < fenn> well the internet is broken so my witty reply will be delayed 20:10 < fenn> http://www.nature.com/articles/nphys929 20:10 < fenn> .title 20:10 < saxo> The cold truth | Nature Physics 20:10 < fltrz> well, its the first time someone asks me to please not invent time travel 20:15 < lsneff> What is that article lmao 20:16 < fltrz> it didn't change my perspective on time travel ethics, but it did settle my doubt between being a straight male or a macho lesbian with the great fortune of being born male 20:31 -!- Jayson_Virissimo [~Jayson@ip98-165-142-10.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:15 -!- Jayson_Virissimo [~Jayson@ip98-165-142-10.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [] 21:32 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-emnrnpxuvznxprfd] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] --- Log closed Fri Mar 12 00:00:53 2021