--- Log opened Mon Mar 15 00:00:56 2021
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01:29 < maaku> aparantly Kurt Pilgeram is dead
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03:27 < fenn> "none of the contributions to Alcor to defend this suit were in the form of a loan, with repayment upon Alcor prevailing and recovering its costs. Thus, if Alcor prevails and they recover their costs they will have been handsomely rewarded for their bad behavior"
03:28 < fenn> "in a sense, that the suspension patients are serving as hostages with the net effect of extracting donations."
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07:56 < lsneff> I'm not even sure how a loan would work in this context.
07:57 < lsneff> There's no guarantee that 2021 money will have any value in the future. And alcor won't recover costs in any way if they revive people.
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08:36 < apotheon> fenn: That's not an entirely unfair description of what happened, as far as I see.
08:50 < docl> if I were a donor in this case, I'd likely see it as rewarding them for doing their duty in defending the patient care trust from a hostile attacker who sought to murder the patients contained therein along with his own father.
08:51 < apotheon> In this case, Alcor is evidently protecting someone from "murdering" a person who (under the circumstances) chooses post-life euthanasia, though.
08:52 < apotheon> . . . and I guess it wasn't a lawsuit until Alcor not only amputated the person's body against his wishes, but also then refused to meet the conditions of the expressed remedy for the results.
08:53 < apotheon> Then again, I can see how a donor might regard that as defense against an "attacker".
08:54 < apotheon> In principle, though, Alcor's survival isn't necessary; it's only that Alcor doesn't really have any competitors that makes defense of Alcor necessary when Alcor clearly fails at customer service.
08:54 < apotheon> (All the above is based on what I know of the situation which, like many other people outside the situation, is not comprehensive by any means.)
08:57 < lsneff> For those who are currently entombed at alcor, alcor's survival is necessary.
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09:02 < apotheon> yep
09:02 < L29Ah> how many years of cryogenic storage does it take for a Moon tomb to be profitable?
09:03 < docl> people are free to start their own cryonics companies and try to do it better. but they won't get many takers with the line "we'll fold under pressure" or "we don't care about the brain, it's just a body" or "we're just handling remains, no big deal if your heirs want your head to bury they can have it"
09:03 < L29Ah> ouch, Moon days are long :/
09:04 < docl> Shackleton crater is permanently cold. Until industrialization changes this, at any rate.
09:04 < apotheon> lsneff: In theory, if there was a reasonable competitor, people could just move deceased loved ones' bodies to a competitor in the event of Alcor's dissolution, though.
09:05 < lsneff> I'm sure many people at alcor don't have descendents or descendents willing to do that.
09:06 < apotheon> docl: What about the claim that the person who is the subject of a lawsuit didn't want this, and would rather be dead than resuscitated without his body?
09:06 < apotheon> or, rather, the object of a lawsuit
09:06 < apotheon> I guess Alcor is the subject.
09:08 < docl> that person is either dead (his views don't really matter) or alive (he would be killed if alcor folds). either way it makes no sense.
09:08 < docl> and the usual conditions for euthanasia don't really apply here -- the patient is not suffering.
09:15 < apotheon> I guess you don't agree that contracts need to be honored after the death of one of the parties to the contract, then -- unless you know something about the legalities of the situation that I missed.
09:17 < apotheon> (though, if there was never any explicit condition on the agreement to place his body in Alcor's care, I guess that might change things)
09:18 < apotheon> Presumably, "euthanasia" would apply in the sense of preventing future suffering.
09:38 < lsneff> The laws are going to have to change a lot when WBE happens. Seems like maybe a few decades away—not that distant.
09:38 < lsneff> I wonder how identity can be codified when multiple copies can exist.
09:53 < lsneff> kanzure: do you have any papers on how learning works in the brain?
09:58 < apotheon> lsneff: public key crypto, if that's still a thing by then
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10:22 < docl> I don't really think it's alcor's job to care about the general idea of contracts being honored after death, only that the contracts designed to save patient lives are honored. anyone suing with the goal to cause alcor to break faith with existing patients to save their lives has zero principled claim on the issue. and individual cases, to the extent they matter, matter a lot less than the aggregate is
10:22 < docl> sue. cryonics by default is *hard* and thawing people by default is *easy*.
10:28 < docl> if everyone treated honoring contracts after death as important, cryonics would be a lot easier. we don't live in such a hypothetical society, so it's a sort of moot point relative to that of whether the people you're paying to care about your life being potentially saved by cryonics are going to try very hard to do so.
10:35 < L29Ah> now we need to make a company LegalCryonics that provides you with legal representation and assistance after your death
10:36 < apotheon> My outsider's view suggests to me that, regardless of the ethics of the person suing, Alcor made the wrong decision.  Of course, that assumes a lot about the facts of the case.
10:37 < apotheon> It looks to me like Alcor is putting its autonomy above the safety of its members.
10:37 < apotheon> If the implications of the reported reason for the lawsuit are true, though, there's also the fact that Alcor might not even really be effectively saving anyone for later resuscitation.
10:38 < apotheon> . . . but: Who knows?
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10:44 < docl> for the sake of the safety of the members, it would be prudent to reject any cases where the prospective patient is claiming they would rather be dead than neuropreserved. I don't know how clear he made this to them at the time he signed up, etc. like you say the details of the case could go either way. and of course alcor should take reasonable steps to cryopreserve the whole body for anyone who selec
10:44 < docl> ts and pays for that service. but they should also be able to make clear that this isn't always going to be practical and that the service is contingent on chaotic factors they can't directly control. it would also make sense to automatically refund the price difference and offer a letter of apology in the event this occurs.
10:51 < docl> part of the problem is that the administration changes hands and hence philosophies every so often. the people responsible for the case may not even be aware that it's possible to put in one's paperwork an option to not be preserved at all if only neuropreservation is possible. it's a dumb option to allow, since it adds complexity to an already complex situation. but someone perhaps allowed it under th
10:51 < docl> e argument that it seems cruel to let someone die just because they philosophically object to neuro, given that full body is typically possible.
11:01 < apotheon> "it would be prudent to reject any cases where the prospective patient is claiming they would rather be dead" <- too late for that, in this case
11:02 < apotheon> "it would also make sense to automatically refund the price difference" <- pretty much the crux of the matter
11:02 < maaku> docl: Cryonics Institute is doing just fine
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11:04 < maaku> apotheon: Alcor is pretty heavy-handed about requiring all members to sign over full authority over their body to Alcor, in a very heavily trust-us model
11:05 < maaku> Lawrence Pilgeram is very much on record with his wishes and desires. but the actual contract with Alcor enabled them to convert to neuro preservation in exigent circumstances
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11:07 < maaku> So the key question in the case from a legal standpoint (which we don't know the result of) is whether there was exigent circumstances.
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11:08 < maaku> But that's from an excessively strict interpretation of the contract. In reality you can't say one thing when presenting a contract to someone to sign, and then have the contract be interpreted a totally different way.
11:09 < maaku> Anyway the key takeaway I think is that we need a competition to Alcor
11:11 < maaku> docl: Cryonics Institute doesn't promise to defend you against vindictive relatives. They also *never* do neural-only under any circumstances.
11:12 < maaku> and what do you know, they have existed for longer than Alcor, with less controversy, and offer a similar product at 1/10th the price
11:12 < L29Ah> kriorus
11:13  * L29Ah in fact thinks all these should be liquidated and the monies donated to SENS, but that would be unethical...
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11:39 < lsneff> Why doesn't CI do optional neuro-only?
11:43 < lsneff> "We do not offer the neuro option because we believe that whole body preservation could certainly enhance the chances of successful revival. We are also concerned about neuro's negative effect on the public’s perception of cryonics and, especially, because of the negative impact on the families of patients."
11:44 < lsneff> Ah, for PR reasons
11:49 < maaku> More like: to avoid what happened with Pilgeram vs. Alcor
11:52 < lsneff> as docl said, they shouldn't have taken him in the first place
11:52 < lsneff> but perhaps for that reason as well
11:53 < lsneff> oh well, I think this discussion has been exhausted
11:56 < apotheon> maaku: good point(s)
12:01 < apotheon> If I was going to go the cryonic revival route, the CI option wouldn't be a problem with regard to the whole "vindictive relatives" issue.  I don't have any close-enough relatives younger than me to worry about it.
12:02 < apotheon> If I ever do, it'll probably be after achieving "longevity research escape velocity".
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12:09 < apotheon> (which renders this whole thing irrelevant)
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12:13 < maaku> I would go with CI except that they don't provide as reliable standby suspension services
12:13 < maaku> that drove me to Alcor, but now I have buyer's remorse :\
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15:46 < lsneff> huh, you can just download the fruit fly connectome from the google ai blog
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21:41 < adlai> how do I clone the nLab ?
21:41 < adlai> does not need to be a git repo
21:42 < adlai> must not make more HTTPS requests than an IRC connection, i.e. zero
21:49 < adlai> tbh a torrent would be ideal
21:50  * adlai checks whether anything of the sort is already on gnusha
22:03 < adlai> and no, I am not intending to teach tensorflow about topology or whatever stupidities you suspect.
22:08 < adlai> if there are any reasons that the stupidity I already stated above is downright footgun, though, maybe I am even stupider than I think.
22:09 < adlai> andytoshi: what's a reasonable HTTP source of well-phrased axioms these days?
22:10 < adlai> nlab appears to have nerfed their endpoint, now everything gives 301
22:10  * adlai isn't even gonna check wikipedia for that rhetorical
22:29 < fltrz> I am looking for the correct term for a variant that is not yet observed in the wild, but is observed in a lab, to predict future mutations
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--- Log closed Tue Mar 16 00:00:57 2021