--- Log opened Tue Mar 30 00:00:10 2021
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06:53 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Plowshare
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08:10 < nmz787__> TMA: streety: I also was thinking of some sort of solar dryer, but it seems like a big sheet of plastic might not be the solution (moisture would pool at the top, unless there was some sort of one-way valve or "ridge vent"... and also there's the cost (energetically) of the plastic sheet and any other parts
08:21 < streety> nmz787__: I don't know how keen you are to model the advantages and disadvantages. It sounds like you have a resource that could last for several years but would require significant effort to extract. Just moving and sorting the wood would require a lot of work.
08:23 < streety> What would be most gratifying?
08:31 < nmz787__> well I don't want it to consume my life, but some hard work is definitely desirable... I am getting into this property partially to have reasons to exercise
08:31 < nmz787__> .wik micro combined power and heat
08:31 < saxo> Article not found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_combined_power_and_heat gave 404 | Searched en for 'micro combined power and heat' | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_result_found gave 404 | Searched en for 'No result found'
08:31 < nmz787__> .wik micro combined heat and power
08:31 < saxo> "Micro combined heat and power, micro-CHP, µCHP or mCHP is an extension of the idea of cogeneration to the single/multi family home or small office building in the range of up to 50 kW." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_combined_heat_and_power
08:32 < nmz787__> if I could find a system like that, which I could feed wood... I think that would be pretty satisfying
08:32 < nmz787__> this article only mentions "wood" twice though
08:34 < nmz787__> https://www.froeling.com/fileadmin/content/produkte/Prospekte_Flyer/EN/EN_Prospekt_CHP.pdf
08:34 < nmz787__> that includes a drying stage for the incoming wood fuel
08:35 < nmz787__> "The wood gasifier is fuelled by natural untreated wood chip. Via a twin-flap lock, the wood chip is transported by the stoker screw into the reformer. Inside the reformer, the wood chips are gasified in a downstream procedure consisting of"...
08:35 < streety> Would you have access to wood long term to justify the up front costs?
08:35 < nmz787__> yeah I think I am planning to live here for 20 years
08:36 < nmz787__> it's 75 acres of tree farm... about 30 acres is baby trees (and some of that needs replanting next winter), another 25 acres is christmas trees that got too big and need thinned and also are being cut for tree boughs (I guess for holiday wreaths)
08:36 < nmz787__> and the remainder is larger trees
08:37 < nmz787__> but if the already-cut wood sits for too long, it will decompose (at least partially), reducing the fuel value
08:37 < streety> I can see the attraction with CHP then.
08:37 < streety> decompositions should be reduced if dried
08:38 < nmz787__> also the state forests allow a few pickup-truck full loads of wood to be extracted for free
08:38 < nmz787__> and those sort of places will be within maybe 20 minutes driving, at minimum
08:40 < streety> Did you want the fire to be self starting? Was that possible with wood chips or did they need to be pellets?
08:41 < nmz787__> hmm, I'm not sure... it seems like it'd be pretty similar in either case (Assuming the chips were dry enough)
08:42 < streety> uniform size for the pellets might be a big advantage. Giving a known quantity in the heating region
08:42 < nmz787__> self-starting just seems like it'd be nice for power generation reasons... but maybe the system cooling down at night, when power usage is low, means this starts to be less practical
08:42 < nmz787__> also heating during the summer would just be.... waste
08:43 < nmz787__> but I guess I could switch to some other system in the summer
08:43 < streety> chips would definitely be easier to make.
08:44 < streety> the benefit of self-starting probably depends on the CHP process as well
08:45 < streety> a gasifier could be run intermittently and the gas stored. A large thermal mass could be heated to run other processes. Molten metals maybe?
08:46 < streety> combined biomass-battery-solar? solar focused in summer. battery as alternative to self-start?
08:46 < nmz787__> yeah batteries seem like a good idea for whatever the power source, except utility-scale electric
08:46 < streety> A self-start would presumably need a decent battery anyway
08:47 < nmz787__> I had been thinking of a diesel generator to begin with, for when the power-company lines go down
08:47 < nmz787__> which is apparently something you can count on happening a few times a year
08:48 < streety> you're not off the grid? That's useful. Gives you some flexibility
08:48 < nmz787__> no, but if I was going to invest in a CHP system... it seems like I would need to account for a payoff period, which I think means using it a lot
08:49 < nmz787__> and probably the grid-electric doesn't go down as much in the summer
08:49 < nmz787__> just a guess
08:53 < streety> Are you in the pacific northwest? No experience there but the longest power cut I've experienced was in the summer
08:54 < streety> That wasn't common but it was the longest
08:55 < nmz787__> yeah in western Oregon
08:56 < nmz787__> from my experience it's winter storms that do things in... ice accumulation on trees which then crash onto power wires
08:56 < nmz787__> being here is a concern for winter solar too... I never found a good "dim conditions" "overbuilding" guide
08:57 < nmz787__> since all the panels quote their generation capacity in good illumination conditions, which isn't really the case for ~9 months here
08:59 < streety> any need for A/C in the summer?
09:12 < nmz787__> nah I don't think so
09:12 < nmz787__> we haven't lived there in the summer though, yet, but the existing house doesn't have it
09:13 < nmz787__> we only use it here (about 800 ft lower in elevation, but almost entirely tree-covered) maybe 3 to 5 times per summer... and it's just to take the edge off... but we also don't have ceiling fans in the main living areas here
09:14 < nmz787__> the new place does have ceiling fans in several rooms
09:14 < streety> The waste heat in the summer could be used for dehumidification
09:14 < streety> other than hot water not sure of options
09:20 < nmz787__> hmm, yeah not bad options
09:21 < nmz787__> maybe distill water for lab usage or something, or some other steam powered tools
09:22 < nmz787__> unless that is all used up by the electric generator already
09:23 < streety> if it's hot enough to produce steam presumably it could be used to produce electricity
09:23 < nmz787__> I thought the CHP systems would have already extracted that much energy
09:23 < nmz787__> to where the "waste" heat was not high enough
09:25 < streety> It probably depends how wasteful the process is. The diagram in the pdf you linked seems to waste a lot of heat
09:25 < streety> though it may be simplified for presentation
09:27 < L29Ah> i wonder how efficient are gasifiers in practice
09:28 < L29Ah> > The Fröling CHP generates 50kW electric and 100kW thermal energy.
09:29  * L29Ah now wishes a similar thing with 100x lower power
09:30 < L29Ah> too bad small internal combustion engines seem to have poor power to weight ratio and lifetime
09:54 < superkuh> I recall there was some DARPA funded group a decade or so back that was working on thermionic emission generators for microscale power generation from fuels. What they had in the the late 2000s looked pretty good. I wonder what happened.
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13:38 < fenn> thermophotovoltaic is pretty good too
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13:41 < L29Ah> thermophotowhat
13:41 < L29Ah> sounds crazily inefficient
13:50 < fenn> you tune the IR emission lines to match the bandgap of your semiconductor, typically gallium arsenide
13:50 < fenn> it's not blackbody radiation
13:51 < fenn> and there is a selective optical filter so you recycle the unused radiation
13:52 < fenn> i don't recall the numbers, but they were powering an electric car off a coffee-can sized unit
13:52 < fenn> gallium antimonide*
13:58 < streety> how do you tune the IR emission lines? Is this IR emission from the flame/burning material?
13:58 < fenn> the flame heats an emitter
13:59 < streety> thanks, that makes more sense
13:59 < fenn> strangely the wiki article doesn't mention this, at least not what i've read so far
14:00 < fenn> it does say that tungsten emits more in the near-IR than the far-IR, (but that would depend on temperature, right?)
14:01 < streety> I would expect so
14:03 < fenn> .title http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/2/12/e1600499.full
14:03 < saxo> Near-infrared–to–visible highly selective thermal emitters based on an intrinsic semiconductor | Science Advances
14:24 < L29Ah> > they were powering an electric car off a coffee-can sized unit
14:24 < L29Ah> sounds like bullshit
14:24 < L29Ah> gimme that can
14:24 < L29Ah> can i put it in a bonfire?
14:24 < fenn> no
14:24 < fenn> it was propane powered
14:25 < fenn> several kW continuous electrical power, as long as it's supplied with propane, air (oxygen?) and cooling
14:25 < L29Ah> syngas? charcoal?
14:25 < L29Ah> what was the energy efficiency?
14:26 < fenn> doesn't say
14:28 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/viking_29_thermophotovoltaic_electric_car.pdf
14:29 < fenn> ok there were 8 of those coffee cans
14:36 < fenn> it doesn't say how big the gas tank is, so you can't calculate energy efficiency
14:37 < L29Ah> it says it sucks^Wneeds improvement to be viable in the ending
14:38 < fenn> of course it sucks, it's a student project
14:38 < fenn> "For the best reasonable values in a practical system, Tcell~300K and Temit~1800, giving a maximum efficiency of ~83%." (carnot efficiency)
14:39 < fenn> an actual commercial product you can buy has ~1% efficiency (some crappy wood stove fan thing)
14:41 < fenn> "A TPV radioisotope converter with 20% efficiency was demonstrated that uses a tungsten emitter heated to 1350 K, with tandem filters and a 0.6 eV bandgap InGaAs PV converter (cooled to room temperature). About 30% of the lost energy was due to the optical cavity and filters. The remainder was due to the efficiency of the PV converter."
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16:53 < kanzure> were the logs fixed?
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22:21 < fenn> no
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--- Log closed Wed Mar 31 00:00:11 2021